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John 3:13
Dave-in-PA:
I really appreciate you bringing up this topic Eileen and I am impressed with all the responses. Almost as much as the topic of universal salvation, the question of where one goes when they die is of great interest to me as far as being able to refute the traditional church notion of one's soul going immediately to heaven or hell. This thread has been very useful.
In the last year both my father and a beloved brother-in-law have passed and I had to quietly endure friends and family express with confidence that "they are in a better place" or "He is in heaven enjoying his well deserved rewards" or some such blather. Out of respect and courtesy I've had to hold my tongue to avoid arguments, but boy, I wished I could have set them all straight. The more I read Ray's work, as well as other books on these issues, the more I see just how wrong the church teachings are and how more frustrating these heresies become. The more I appreciate the incredible beauty of the God's word which, when read correctly, makes so much sense and is logical and complete.
I'm sure that for many of those who grew up in the church, the idea that loved ones who have died are presently in heaven is very comforting. I suppose there was a time when it was comforting for me as well. But what I have discovered through the death of my dad and brother-in-law is that the TRUTH, so clearly revealed in the scriptures, is far MORE comforting and exciting even. I know my loved ones are dead, not somewhere else, but dead. BUT, I know without a doubt that someday soon, we will all be resurrected and reunited in the glory of Christ, the Savior of the world. I know for them this wait is but an instant, as it will be for me as well, until we are awoken from death into immortality.
EKnight:
Thanks for all your answers. I did say to her "do you really think that as people die (many per day) they are being judged like a check list? You, Heaven, You, Hell, You heaven, You, Hell....?" I said there is a "day" of judgment. I guess for her everyday is judgment day for someone.
I don't want to dis my sis here because she, like me, was not satisfied in our faith and sought better, but these things like likening death to sleep and judgment and free will seem so obvious to me. I will admit that not everything here at BT is clear to me but those things are.
Thanks again,
Eileen
carol v:
My best friend, a Methodist, is 100% certain that her little sister who fell into the fireplace at 3 years of age is "with Jesus." I stupidly tried to teach her otherwise by showing this specific scripture. She ended up telling me that I was twisting scripture and talking to Satan on the internet. I don't discuss 'religion' with her much anymore.
What I wanted to point out is the two verses before John 3:13 which pretty much sum up the whole problem:
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Notice that Christ said they wouldn't believe Him before He even said it. If they won't believe Christ Himself...well, they 'ain't' gonna listen to this lowly old West Texas broad!
gmik:
Rodger, good post!! I can just see you giving her a bit of your quick wit! :D ;)
winner08:
Question: Is there just one resurrection? What is the difference between the first to rise in Christ and the great white throne judgement? After the first fruits are risen is there another resurrection for the rest? Sorry I know this has been ansewer many times I just don't remember.
Darren
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