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Where Did Christ Ascend?
Daniel:
Chrissie you wrote,
--- Quote ---I know that Ray says that the coma is in the wrong place and that it really should be: "Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."
I have to say that on this I do disagree and not because I think that the thief on the cross went to paradise 'that day' when he died... but because I believe that the Lord was telling him a SPIRITUAL TRUTH.
--- End quote ---
Exactly how I'm seeing this Chrissie. Not a "die thing" and "go to paradise". Who was "caught up to paradise" and never had to "physically" die to do it, couldn't even tell if it was "in the body" or "out of the body" to do it. I see the Lord declaring "the day" as in "To day" not in a literal 12- 24 hour day but declaring "THE" works finished. Paul expounded on this, "a certain day" while it is "called To day". I know Paul wasn't giving them a literal 24 hours here.
Chrissie you added
--- Quote ---I think you see these things similar to the way that I do. At least the way that you piece and tie them together is similar to the way that I do. So when is "today"?
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
and here:
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
--- End quote ---
Excellent verses His rest is paradise, well it is to me :lol:
What are we to HEAR? Who HEARS IT? WHEN?
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall HEAR the voice of the Son of God: and THEY that HEAR shall LIVE.[/u]
To me thats the "To Day" if WE HEAR HIS VOICE. WE who WERE DEAD in our SINS after a SPIRITUAL TRUTH as His words are SPIRIT and LIFE. Our LIFE is HID in Christ and we LIVE by His POWER and HIS LIFE (though DEATH) yet manifested IN our MORTAL BODY
Getting back to the verses concerning "the rest"
Notice where he swares... Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Now I know the law worketh wrath Romans 4:15 and Gal 3:12 the law is "not of faith"...Without faith it is impossible to "please Him"
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished[/u] from the foundation of the world.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting LIFE[/b]: and he that believeth not the Son shall NOT SEE life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (could not "enter" because of unbelief)
Cant SEE LIFE, why? Isaiah 9:19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall SPARE "his BROTHER. (not "resting here")
Theres Simply "No rest" Christ redeemed from the curse of the law. No rest right here (fear having the "torment" we find).
Notice the word "ASSURANCE" in the next few verses
Duet 28:66 And THY LIFE shall hang IN DOUBT before thee; and thou shalt FEAR (which hath torment) day and night, and shalt have NONE ASSURANCE FOR THY LIFE:
Heres the EFFECT of Christ in us, He who IS "Our Rest and our Peace"
Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and ASSURANCE for ever.[/u]
1Thes 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in WORD ONLY, but also IN POWER, and in the Holy Ghost, and in MUCH ASSURANCE; as ye know what "manner of men" we were among you for "your sake".
Chrissie wrote,
--- Quote ---1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past (yesterday), and the true light now (today) shineth.
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
--- End quote ---
Amen! The hating ones brother, the darkness (by wrath a land is "darkened") and HERE no man will SPARE HIS BROTHER. He hateth his brother. Like greivous (or sever wolves) they SPARE NOT "the Flock". As the Lord said the wrath abideth on them, they simply cannot SEE Life. He that hateth his brother (or loveth him not) is in that very darkness we came from. We were "sometimes in darkness" but now "light in the Lord". We were once "children of wrath" it says but when the love and mercy of God appeared he saved us. We got a great God!
Chrissie wrote
--- Quote ---From where I sit, you need not move the coma. You just need to know what is meant by "Today" and understand that it was a SPIRITUAL TRUTH that was being spoken... and look BEYOND the letter.
--- End quote ---
Beautifully put Chrissie. I know I have caught myself getting caught up on something as small as a "comma", and I agree whats "To day" all about? Thats the question isn't it? :lol:
Chrissie wrote,
--- Quote ---Christ was speaking a spiritual truth when he told the thief "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise", not a physical one. We know this to be true because ALL of His words were SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
--- End quote ---
Amen Chrissie I'm hearing you loud and clear. As I might have mentioned a bit earlier on, it took not a "physical death" to be caught up into pardise. What a TRIP huh? :lol: TAKE ME LORD! I'm saying :lol:
Thank you for adjusting that for me, I might know how I see that verse but it might be assumed I mean something I don't. As that day being "To day" as being in that 24 hour period type day. OR seeing it as an He "died and went to paradise" thing. Not at all. Thank God Paul wrote what he wrote concerning paradise. It cuts through the thought of the physical body needing to die to "go there" (so to speak). It clears off comma (hysteria) right off the "things to deal with" list. One verse carefully looked at can take away ever having to wrest over it the long and hard way :lol: with those endless pages of historical accounts, dictionarys etc. :shock:
That would drive me crazy to go through such hoops :lol:
Daniel
chrissiela:
--- Quote from: Steve Crook ---Well, the original language doesn't have a comma, AT ALL. So, it's not about the comma at all. I know I've seen Ray mention that before, so movement of the comma is not important.
Was Christ DEAD? If he was dead, then how pray tell was the thief in paradise while Christ was dead? Knowing Christ after the flesh wouldn't have been...being with him in paradise to day...?
I am truly asking for any answers anyone has.
I see yester day, to day, and another day.
Was, IS, Will be.
--- End quote ---
Steve, do you have a problem with me? This is the second time that it seems to me that you are jumping to the WRONG conclusions about something that I have posted?
I know that there is no comma in the original manuscripts. :wink:
However, there IS punctuation in the various english translations of the scriptures that we use and the placement of the comma IS something that Ray has addressed in order to clarify WHAT Christ said on the cross to the thief.
I was simply trying to demonstrate that the placement of the comma (when one is placed) does NOT matter because you DON'T even have to move it (or you can put it in either place) and you can still come to the SAME conclusion that Ray and Mike do.
The fact is that ON THE SURFACE moving the comma CAN appear to change the meaning or the emphasis of the statement being made. And the fact is that not everyone believes that Christ WAS dead and buried until His resurrection on the third day. I was not even addressing that.
I never said that Christ was not dead and I never claimed that there was punctuation in the original manuscript; I only addressed the punctuation that IS in the manuscripts that we use.... and, as you said, how it is NOT important.
Blessings,
Chrissie
Steve Crook:
No, no problem whatsoever with anyone, anywhere. How could you think I have a problem wth you with the comments I have made? I am asking an honest question. Seems as though when I ask questions, folks get kind of twitchy or something.
Not sure, but no problem with you.
Edited from: "No, no problem whatsoever with anyone, anywhere." and added rest of statement
eutychus:
forums can be tricky, sometimes after i post, im thinking "hey"
that looks different on screen than when i was thinking it, etc.
we are all brothers and sisters here and so if we keep that in mind as we get to know each others posting style all is well.
so be blessed you are loved by God everybody :wink:
love
chuckt
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