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How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Richard D:
Thanks Marques.
Your right about Christendom teaching us these misunderstandings, I have both Gods truths in me as well as many misunderstandings taught me by the church.
Kat:
Hi Richard,
Pro 16:9 A man's heart plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.
Understanding that God is all powerful and all knowing, indeed He is sovereign and is in controll of all things, is difficult. God has a plan to bring all of His created children into His image.
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
But notice "for whom are all things and by whom are all things," God is ultimately in control of everything, because all things exist by Him. So God is actually the source of all things and that includes us and everything about us, even the number of hairs we have (Mat 10:30). Now add that God knows "the end from the beginning" (Isa. 46:10), so how can we do something that He does not know we will do.
Act 17:28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, "For we are also His offspring.'
He brings about all the circumstances, but lets us choose, so that we can have this experience of life and learning good and evil. We actually think, say things and do what 'we' want to, because God gave us that ability as part of this experience in life. Now He also is making us accountable, because it was our own thoughts, words and actions, not of free will, but still our desire/will to think, say and do, so that we might learn through cause and effect. The ultimate cause and effect, if you sin you die.
So He has this great plan that He is carrying out and we a vital part of His plan. We are at a point in His plan where very few have been given knowledge of it. I hope that maybe something I said will help your understanding.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Richard D:
Kat.
Thank you for your explanation Kat and also everyone else’s too. After reading Ray’s free will series I kept thinking that what ever I do is because God is causing me to do it whether right or wrong.
I understand now that God sends causes or triggers to the beast in us that brings temptations that the beast in us is attracted to and then we decide whether we will follow the desire of the beast or our desire for God.
God does not tempt us but we are like this by nature and do not take much for one to sin because we are sinning machines.
So if I choose to do wrong I’ am accountable for my decision because I have power of choice but God is responsible because he subjected the creature to vanity and in doing so God also paid the death penalty giving God the right to resurrect everyone from the grave otherwise we would stay dead in our sins.
I finally understand rightly now and would like to thank everyone who has posted in this thread.
In God’s love. Richard.
Robin:
We don't have the power of free choice Richard. Our choices still have a cause.
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm
FREE WILL
You mentioned "free will" in your sermon. People would rather have their arms and legs cut off and be thrown into a pit of snakes than to give up their "free will." Well guess what? They don't have to give it up. They never had such a thing in the first place! Even God Almighty is governed by the law of His own nature.
"The One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11).
But the buck stops at God's throne. He has not given us the same powers He possesses; that's for sure. But man, puny man, thinks he has "human free will" that is never caused or made to think or do anything. Man thinks himself sovereign in this assumed free will.
The Scriptures know nothing of "human free will." This is just another case of human ignorance. Men do not possess free will, because free will does not exist. The reason that "free will" (the ability to make uncaused choices) does not exist is because it is a physiological impossibility!
The first edict of the universe is "cause & effect."
Nothing in heaven or earth can happen without a cause. For every effect there is a cause. There are no exceptions. No effect or happening of any kind in the universe, on earth, in our bodies, or in our minds can come into existence without a cause. And if something is caused, it cannot be free. That would be a total contradiction of words and logic. Humans do have wills. But wills are not free from causality.
" ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).
This involves countless unperceived forces.
Don't confuse "will" with "choice." Someone might say: "If our choices, are caused, then how can one call it a 'choice'-isn't that a contradiction?" Not at all. Free will demands that when someone makes a "free will" choice, no thing or no one made or forced him to do so. It was completely up to him-one way or the other. People simple confuse the meaning and definition of words. The word "choice" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the choice could have been avoided. A choice is merely what we prefer. Nowhere does the word "choice" carry with it the notion of "avoidability."
When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers most at that instant. Nevertheless, something still caused that choice, whether one sees or feels its presence or not. One can argue that one made a free choice because one desired to do so. It still doesn't matter-the desire caused the choice, and the desire, itself, was caused. There are no exceptions. One may suggest that one did or said something without a cause simply because one willed to do so. Fine. But then even you are admitting that the choice had a cause, namely your will. One's wills and desires are not free from the laws of God or the laws of physics. These demand a cause for every effect. Man is not a deity. Man's will is not independent from his Creator (Phil. 2:13).
Richard D:
M.G.
I know that every choice I make has a cause behind it but the cause itself doe not make me do the wrong thing or the right thing but it forces me to make a decision but I choose to do the right thing or the wrong thing but the cause is forcing me to make a choice.
So I understand now that my choice is not free in itself or without a cause but I have the freedom to choose rightly or wrongly regardless of the cause that is causing me to choose This is why I’m held accountable but not responsible.
So God could send me causes to help a fellow human being but it’s my choice whether I give help or not. God does not force me to give help but God forces me to make a decision as to whether I will help or not.
So we do not have choice outside of something giving causes or our choosing is not free of causes but our decision is not force upon us only the cause is force upon us.
So people can only make choices according to the information they have rather making choices without cause or effect of causes. So the cause is what motivates me to make a choice to do or not to do.
In God's love. Richard.
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