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Author Topic: What is the turth about Paul??  (Read 7678 times)

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winner08

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What is the turth about Paul??
« on: October 25, 2008, 09:45:40 PM »

Today has been a very strange day. I have been discussing The apostle Paul with others and It seems to me that they think Paul was not a true apostle. One even called him a false prophet. I had to bite my tongue. I was shock because I never heard of this before. Then one said He(Paul) was not filled with the Holy Spirit and was a false prophet. Then One said what Paul taught was not of Christ teachings. Now I never heard of this I just to it for granted that Paul was an apostle of God and he taught what Jesus taught. What's going on? I know if It wasn't for the teachings of Paul the gentiles would be in trouble. Was it not he that taught us that one did not have to be a Jew to be a child of God? That one can be a spiritual Jew. They said most christisn teaching is of Paul not Jesus. Also that Paul taught that salvation is based on Jesus crucifixion and teach the trinity. Now I am not smart enough and God has not given me the wisdom to know these things. I fell in my heart this is a bunch of crap. But I don't know how to give an ansewer to this I believe lies. One even ask me how do I know that Paul was supported by the Holy Spirit? Man Should I even try? or just let it go. But I don't like it when I am question on my belief and I can't give an ansewer. Maby none is needed? Maby God don/t want me to If He did would He not givve me the wisdom to ansewer these kind of questions?

Darren
« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 09:54:38 PM by winner08 »
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Rene

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2008, 10:08:44 PM »

Darren,

The Apostle Paul was inspired by God to write more books of the New Testament than any other person.  As Ray has stated many times, Paul was a "spiritual giant."

Here is an email question and reply from Ray regarding the Apostle Paul.  I hope this helps you.

René

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6319.0.html

Dear Ray.

        I have a question that has been “At me” for some time.
        Jesus told the apostles to, not listen, to anyone coming after him that was teaching a Gospel contrary to the one that, he himself, had spoken. Even if it were an Angel of Light!!
        If I am correct in what I believe Jesus and the Bible are telling us, then shouldn’t we be very careful of anyone claiming to have “Special” knowledge? Such as Paul? Who was knocked down and made blind by a “Being of Light“, claiming to be the Lord.
        I am not saying that what Paul spoke was contrary. But being that the Word of God is so complex and hard enough to figure out on it’s own (Maybe not for some. But for me, it can be).
        How are we to be sure that it was God that spoke to Paul and not Satan?
        How do we know that Mohammad did not truly talk to God?
        Why believe Paul?
        The whole “Paul thing”, may have been a test from God himself to see if we were paying attention. To see if we would listen to Jesus and not listen to anyone else.
        Is it possible that when Jesus spoke these words, he was telling us that this was the end of the prophets. That he, himself was the last one to come and tell us with All authority? And that we should not listen to anyone coming after him?
        I guess there are groups out there (Gnostics or something) that do not believe that what Paul spoke, is Gospel. And I assume it is for these reasons.
        I just don’t understand why God would “Lump” on top of US, another thing to be concerned with. Deciphering truths seem to be hard enough without, having to now, reason if Paul was speaking the True Word of God.
        I would like to hear what you have to say about it. I respect what you say because you seem to have a good deal of “Horse Sense” (That is a complement by the way) when it comes to the word of God. And you have made me see the light on matters of Hell and God’s Justice.

        Thank you.
        Dante

Dear Dante: 

I seriously do not understand your questions.  Why would you question the Apostle Paul (maybe the greatest saint that has ever lived in the history of the world)?  Because lying deceiving Gnostics question something is that reason for you to question it?  The First church of Satan questioned God. They say we should worship Satan. so should we worship Satan.  You asked whether it was God or Satan that talked to Muhammad?  I could ask, How do we know it was not Satan talking with Moses?  And where did Jesus say to "Not believe anyone who came after him?"  It is not up to you to prove every hypocrite and false prophet to be wrong. I immediately reject what they say. I marvel that anyone could believe that Paul was not the grandest of followers of Jesus. His teachings are marvelous beyond compare to anything.\
        I really don't know what to tell you, Dante.  Do they have some evidence of Paul's evils deeds or teachings after his conversion?  I think not.

God be with you,
Ray

PS   I wish that we had a lot more of Paul's epistles.
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Martinez

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2008, 10:24:07 PM »


I agree with Ray on this.

How could anyone think that Paul was not of Christ?

I have heard people before saying that Paul was the Antichrist or an Antichrist, but that is only because they think that what Paul taught contrary to what Christ and the other apostles taught, and We all know why that is.

They don't have any clue what the scriptures mean!

Then you've got others that think that James was the Antichrist just because of the Babylonian heretic hero Martin Luther.

GGRRrrrrrrr!!! >:(
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Marlene

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 02:23:14 AM »

I think they just don't want to see the truth. They are blind and make up all kinds of things. Man, will go to any extremes to deny the one who created them. Then again, maybe they have something against Jesus saving all. Maybe they are respectors of persons. I personally am convinced that Paul was who the Bible says. They could read when he was Saul and see how God converted him and his life had trials that we may never suffer. Just, as Ray would say"That Is A Bunch Of Crock".
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winner08

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 04:00:54 AM »

First of all I never said I believe what these people are saying. In fact I stated that I had to bite my tongue so that I would not jump down their throats. I certainly believe Paul to be great. It was he who was responsible for spreading the word through the gentile nations and I for one am grateful.
As I stated I never even heard of this about Paul before so I was shocked and I was wondering what have y'all heard. Don't confuse me with one of them.
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aqrinc

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Re: What is the truth about Paul??
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2008, 05:15:49 AM »

Darren,

Yes there are people out there who say Paul was a heretic; you have been studying the Scriptures with a master teacher.
Next time the conversation comes up ask them to show you; in the Scriptures where Paul contradicts and for them to
please explain it. Notice how every Epistle of Paul starts and check all his teaching with the rest of Scripture; there are
no contradictions. Even all the other Apostles quickly put that very question to bed; do some reading and study of Acts
and your main questions will be answered.

II Timothy 3:16:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

II Peter 3:16:
As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are
unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Acts 13:45:
But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spoke against those things which were spoken by Paul,
contradicting and blaspheming.

Acts 15:22:
Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul
and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brothers:

Peace, Love and knowledge Brother,

george.
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WhoAmI

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008, 05:36:10 AM »

Darren,

  We all struggle with the scriptures. No one has it all figured out and the churches like to put a lot of emphasis on men and certain men of the bible. A lot of churches I attended acted like to question anyone in the bible was evil. They acted as if those people were somehow different than the rest of us. As someone already stated look at the before and after of Saul/Paul. One thing we need to keep in mind is that Moses and Paul maybe didn't speak the same way or know the same things but never the less God was directing them. Anyone who is skilled as a "mental lawyer" on dealing with the scriptures can cast doubt about anyones relationship with God. The more I learn I realize the LESS I have to do with anything. And even though I don't compare to Paul or should worry if I do, I have heard him speak about being the worst of sinners etc. I think he realized that it was about God and nothing about Him.


Jeff
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Martinez

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 06:41:53 AM »


There is a patton that I've noticed with people that hold this opinion about Paul.
They only see the letter and not the spirit.

They only compare physical with physical and not spiritual with spiritual.

Next time you talk to someone who holds this belief, just have a look at the understanding of all the scriptures and you'll see what I mean.
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Samson

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008, 08:15:55 AM »

Today has been a very strange day. I have been discussing The apostle Paul with others and It seems to me that they think Paul was not a true apostle. One even called him a false prophet. I had to bite my tongue. I was shock because I never heard of this before. Then one said He(Paul) was not filled with the Holy Spirit and was a false prophet. Then One said what Paul taught was not of Christ teachings. Now I never heard of this I just to it for granted that Paul was an apostle of God and he taught what Jesus taught. What's going on? I know if It wasn't for the teachings of Paul the gentiles would be in trouble. Was it not he that taught us that one did not have to be a Jew to be a child of God? That one can be a spiritual Jew. They said most christisn teaching is of Paul not Jesus. Also that Paul taught that salvation is based on Jesus crucifixion and teach the trinity. Now I am not smart enough and God has not given me the wisdom to know these things. I fell in my heart this is a bunch of crap. But I don't know how to give an ansewer to this I believe lies. One even ask me how do I know that Paul was supported by the Holy Spirit? Man Should I even try? or just let it go. But I don't like it when I am question on my belief and I can't give an ansewer. Maby none is needed? Maby God don/t want me to If He did would He not givve me the wisdom to ansewer these kind of questions?

Darren


Darren,

             Like Rene said quoting Ray: " Paul was a Spiritual Giant " and wrote most of the New Testament. The person that stated to you that Paul was a Heretic; I wonder what Bible they were reading or not reading. Perhaps they were reading too much of the Apocrophal " New Testament. "

             Also Paul is one of the best examples proving we don't have Free Will mentioned at Acts. chapter 9 and he was the worst of sinners prior to that, being changed by Christ in less than 10 seconds and as Ray has pointed out, never mentions Hell(Gehenna) in any of his writings. An important Doctrine and Idol of the Heart of Christendom and Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles, writing most of the New Testament, never mentions it.

             Darren, I can appreciate why you had to " bite your tongue ", hopefully it didn't bleed too much;  ;D
             A lesson and training in the Art of Self-Control and Long Suffering, good example for us.


                                                      Kind Regards, Samson.
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digitalwise

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2008, 08:55:23 AM »


Then you've got others that think that James was the Antichrist just because of the Babylonian heretic hero Martin Luther.

GGRRrrrrrrr!!! >:(

I am going to correct the historic record here:

No - empathic Luther did not say James or such were wrong, Luther struggled with the words of James' espistle as the Church of Rome used the book of James against Grace and Justification by Faith in Jesus. He translated the epistle of James into common German language as the historic record shows despite Luther's own personal attacks from doctrinal obsessed Scholars of works to earn your salvation FROM then - you guessed it -  the Babylonian system religious systems of 1500AD to 1600AD.

That is then a distortion of historical records. Luther often his vent his anger too far as it was DIRECTED at the Babylonian system of the day by calling the James espitle the "dunhill of the bible" in the hands of these scholars who wanted him dead and killed and to prove Rome was correct doctrinally.

I personally think Luther despite his errors was a ANTI-Babylonian hero[/b] considering he put the WORD of God for the first time in the hands of peasent Germans.

You will also note that Ray holds to a sympathetic approach in his writings to Luther as much he does the other mention cited here. On this issue having spent many years investigating earlier church fathers, I hold to a more modest account of historical records and not the rampant negativity on the internet.
 
Simply - Many Babylonian church systems of today HATE Luther - that is often an over looked reality.

Call to balance on such matters is in order.

digitalwise
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Rene

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2008, 09:47:08 AM »

[I am going to correct the historic record here:

You will also note that Ray holds to a sympathetic approach in his writings to Luther as much he does the other mention cited here. On this issue having spent many years investigating earlier church fathers, I hold to a more modest account of historical records and not the rampant negativity on the internet.
 
digitalwise


Digitalwise,

That above statement in bold made by you is not true.  Below is an excerpt from a LOF installment in which Ray states how he really feel about Martin Luther:

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html 

Installment XVI—HELL: Part C  THE ORIGIN OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

Whereas Calvin himself calls this damning of the children "a horrible decree," modern follower of Calvinism, Dr. James Kennedy, has euphemized Calvin’s "horrible decree" down to "Hell is FAIR." I am not sure how any modern followers of Calvin can euphemize his burning of Christian believers at the stake. What hideously evil men John Calvin and Martin Luther were.

And Christians by the thousands ask who I think I am that I should be judging such prominent theologians? I don’t judge them, I just expose their damnable heresies as I have just done one more time.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2008, 11:04:57 AM »

Hello Winner08

I too have recently been exposed to a most damnable seductive doctrine of man that perniciously devalues and slanders the status of Paul the Apostle. I do not know if you were exposed to the same false teaching. On the positive side for me it was a valuable exercise in discernment to encounter the  deftly  cunning and slanderous reasoning's that also presented a 2000 year "breach" period of Babylon. I did not click as fast as you did and I swollowed a bit more than you did before I recognised the insidious deception and ear stroking half truths. 

If anyone else is being caught into deceitful teaching it is better to understand and believe the Scriptures and not the reasoning's of man and imaginings that pose themselves as sound doctrine when in fact they are only the doctrines of Demons.

Wolves in sheep's clothing mean only that some sheep have been devoured already or that there are wolverine apprentices within the flock. Paul warned of this happening. We can believe him. We can also believe what Ray teaches and that the Scriptures present Gods Word of Truth and Prophesy upon which we can depend, rely trust and believe.

Arc.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 11:48:56 AM by Arcturus »
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winner08

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2008, 02:42:22 PM »

I typed in the Apostle Paul on the internet and I found some interesting stuff. One thread is on Paul, James and Peter. If oneone goest there let me inow what you think.
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winner08

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2008, 02:50:12 PM »

WOW! I'm sorry but you lost me with some of thoes big words. I guess i am not as smart as you think i should be.
1. perniciously, does that mean something like evil?
2 discernment?
3 defty?

Sorry,
darren
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Kat

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2008, 04:20:33 PM »


Hi Digitalwise,

Quote
You will also note that Ray holds to a sympathetic approach in his writings to Luther as much he does the other mention cited here.


Ray spoke about Martin Luther a good bit about Luther work at the Mobile Conference in 07 'How we got the Bible.'  He shows how he was a big contributor to the first Bibles, but to say he "holds to a sympathetic approach in his writings," well maybe for his work to translate Scripture.  Luther may have been "ANTI-Babylonian" but a hero?  He seems more like a Pharisee if anything to me.
Rene gave you an email, but here are a few more comments that Ray makes about Luther and I don't think he has much sympathy for the character of this man.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html --------

Yes, Martin Luther, he’s a German.  Did he have any documents?  Yes, Martin Luther had a Erasmus collection of Greek manuscripts, that later became known as Textus Receptus.  Martin Luther translated his Germany version from those Texts and the Vulgate.  When in doubt, look at somebody that’s already done it, you will learn things.
v
v
But it’s true, Martin Luther worked with Tyndale and he must have had a lot of influence with Tyndale.  Because they knocked out that New Testament in one year.  
v
v
Martin Luther although he did a lot of good things, you just read what his attitude was towards the peasants.  ‘Kill them all and make it dirty, make it fast.’  No mercy.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4268.0.html ------

  Dear Larry:  No, Calvin and Luther were not just the persecuted, but the PERSECUTORS!  They were among some of the most evil and vile humans who have ever drawn breath on this God's earth. According to history they have more blood on their hands than most serial killers.

        God be with you,
        Ray

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winner08

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2008, 04:31:51 PM »

I have been reading alot about Paul on line and I just don't see where Paul taught anything but whay Jesus taught. is it not the same teachings?
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winner08

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2008, 04:34:43 PM »

sorry I just don't have time to look up ever word I don't understand. I will just have to deal with it. why must some be such a smart @$@.
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aqrinc

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2008, 04:42:07 PM »

Nothing to do with smarts Darren, just good old inspiration from God through Jesus Christ and persistence.

 Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #16 on: Today at 11:31:51 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been reading alot about Paul on line and I just don't see where Paul taught anything but whay Jesus taught. is it not the same teachings?

sorry I just don't have time to look up ever word I don't understand. I will just have to deal with it. why must some be such a smart @$@.
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winner08

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2008, 04:47:35 PM »

I guess that crack about the dictionary was inspired by God.

If so I am sorry.
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aqrinc

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Re: What is the turth about Paul??
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2008, 04:52:18 PM »

Brother, you did not offend in the least bit, that was just a back at ya.



I guess that crack about the dictionary was inspired by God.

If so I am sorry.
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