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Author Topic: Spirit and Soul  (Read 11689 times)

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hammerandnails

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2008, 11:23:37 PM »

Beloved, you are right, I forgot about the quickening!!! :-[

So, to tie it all together, at birth, we are made of two parts: body and soul,
but the soul also contains the spirit that gives life, bisides the individual character traits
that God had given to each of us.
But, the spirit is still mixed with the soul. Only by the Spirit of Christ in our spirit (spirit to spirit) that separation can take place.
We had received the Spirit of God that quiken our spirit and transforms us in a new creature
from glory to glory. But this activity must take place in the spirit, (spirit to spirit) because the flesh profited nothing.
We are not aware of it, it is hidden. Hence the hidden man of the heart.
By the Word (besides washing), we are separated, namely, the soul from the spirit, in order to discern
between good and bad, spirit and flesh.
This activity takes place in the spirit.
Therefore, (I think) we are becoming three part being, body, soul and spirit, with the spirit becoming
the "chief, the one in charge", and the soul following allong with his senses trained and exercised.

            "But strong meet belong to them that are full age,
             even those who by reason of use have their senses
             exercised (trained) th discern good and evil." Heb.5:14

Other scipture to support what I am saying:


           "Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to
            understand doctrine? theam that are weaned from the milk,
            and drawn from the breasts."   Isa. 28:9

Drawing from the breasts is a painful thing.

Furthermore, the mixture that I was talking about:

           " Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing.
             My brethren, these things ought not to be."  James3:10
And in the very next verse he says:
             "Does a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water
              and bitter?  (v.11)
             Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine
             figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh."  (v. 12)

So, he say that we bless and curse, and it should not be so, and then he say that
it not possible.
It is not possible if we are clean. We must get clean.
Also James says in v.8 of the same chapter, that we are double minded!
Again mixture, in need of purification.

Another scripture:
             "For the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than
              any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder
              of soul and spirit...."
So, if he says soul and spirit then they cannot be one and the same.
It must be cut, divided, separated.
Clearly, they are not one and the same because the bible used two separate words for this
Scripture.

    soul: Psuche #5590
    spirit: Pneuma #4151

In Job 7:11          "Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my
                          spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul."

In this verse, the soul and the spirit is clearly not one and the same:

   spirit # 07307 ruwach: wind, breath, mind, spirit, wind of heaven, breath of airspirit as a gift, preserved by God's Spirit
                                  departing at death, rarely of the will.

   soul  # 05315  nephesh: soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, desire, emotion, passion

And then we have this word bitterness. Bitter. Where did we see this word before?
Yes in James.

But wait, I found the same word in Exodus:
   Exodus15:22,23:
      " So Moses bruought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur;
        and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.
       And they came to Ma'rah, they could not drink of the waters of Ma'rah,
        for they were bitter:therefore the name of it was called Ma'rah.

The word soul ( #5590) in HEB. 4:12, is found 6 times in 1st Peter. One of this verses being this:

              "Seeing you have purified your soulsin obeying the truth
              trough the Spirit...."
1Pet. 1:22.


 In conclusion, we are clearly three parts: body, soul and spirit.
The Lord works in our spirit, through the Holy Spirit to purify our soul, and save it. There are separated
which is a process, by sifting (Luke22:31), cutting (Heb.4:12),and exercising (Heb.5:14)and separating.

I apologize if is not very clear as the way I listed the scriptures.
I am so tired, just about to pass out.
Please, if I made a mistake, I welcome your correction.

Love you all
Ariel

                     


 
             

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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2008, 11:37:04 PM »

Beloved, you are right, I forgot about the quickening!!! :-[

So, to tie it all together, at birth, we are made of two parts: body and soul,
but the soul also contains the spirit that gives life, bisides the individual character traits
that God had given to each of us.
But, the spirit is still mixed with the soul. Only by the Spirit of Christ in our spirit (spirit to spirit) that separation can take place.

Our body is given spirit which makes us a living soul. We, humanity, are living souls. The spirit only gives life. The Holy Spirit is given to the called and chosen to guide them into all truth. Without spirit or a body, the soul does not exist. Spirit is eternal and is not dependent on any other element.

You've pretty much got it though...  ;)


Marques
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hammerandnails

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2008, 02:11:28 PM »

Thank you all for extending your patience towards me.
That's priceless!!! ;D ;D
You might as well know this: I don't stop until I get to the bottom of it, whatever it is!!!!
But most of all, I don't stop until I know the truth!!!!

To my new family, my true family
Love you all
Ariel
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2008, 03:03:48 PM »


Hi Ariel,

I have some excerpts from the article 'The origin of endless punishment' (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html) that I think will help your understanding.

Quote
So, to tie it all together, at birth, we are made of two parts: body and soul,
but the soul also contains the spirit that gives life, bisides the individual character traits
that God had given to each of us.

God didn’t need to do anything after He breathed into him the breathe of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn’t put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it ‘on’ and the light glows: Switch it ‘off’ and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul.


Quote
In conclusion, we are clearly three parts: body, soul and spirit.

SATAN’S TRINITY OF MAN

Did you ever wonder why it is that so many Christians are almost violently opposed to our teaching that exposes the trinity theory? Just why is the trinity the bedrock of all Christian doctrines along with the immortal soul and judgment upon death theory? Because man desperately wants to believe that he too is a "trinity" composed of three separate entities of body, soul, and spirit in one being, and that he is really immortal even though his physical body will die. Virtually every pagan religion in the world believes man is immortal as the gods. It is too frightening for them to believe that when they die, they are really dead, and that they will remain dead until or unless God resurrects them back to life.

Did the ancient Egyptians believe in the trinity of man: body, soul, and spirit? Yes, of course they did. The soul of man, called Ba, was the consciousness of the man and dwelled inside the body. The spirit-like aspect of man was called Ka. The Ka was like an invisible spirit double of the man. Both the Ka and the Ba where present in every human at birth. The Ba (soul) was pictured as a bird with the head of a man. Every evening the Ba could leave the mummy body and return back to earth among the living and check on friends and relatives. This is how the dead could keep in contact with the living. This is in fact the same hocus-pocus that medians deceitfully use to deceive people into believing that one can communicate with their dead loved-ones.

There is more superstition and witchcraft in some Christian doctrines than any theologian would ever admit to. The souls of people do not go to a heaven or hell upon death. Such doctrines are straight out of the tombs of the Pagan Egyptians.

This trinity of man and immortality of the soul nonsense is Egyptian (SIN), not Scriptural (RIGHTEOUSNESS).
----------------------------------------------------------

I hope that will be helpful in your studies.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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hammerandnails

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2008, 06:32:34 PM »

Kat, I guess that perhaps I am trying to hold on to some old stuff.
And what you are telling me I know is the truth, but I cannot reconcile in my mind
yet why the bible uses different words for spirit and soul.
That is true throughout the Old and New Testament.
If they are one and the same, why not use one word only, why separate words.
Please forgive me, I am going through the trial of my life, and some days I don't know
my name if you ask me. I am desperately right now trying to grab on to something because I am
in utter darkness. Job gives me comfort. Isn't that crazy???

Blessings,
Ariel
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2008, 12:26:28 AM »

Hi Ariel,

Quote
If they are one and the same, why not use one word only, why separate words.

The spirit and soul are not the same.  The way I see it the spirit is what gives us life/being/self, even animals have this.  Where as the soul is the body/brain combined with the spirit/life.  Human have a unique brain and with a mind which gives us intellect and the ability to reason and heart which is the seat of affection and emotions, such as love, joy, grief, enmity, courage, pleasure, etc.  Where as animals do have a soul (spirit + body), but they have a simple brain geared with instincts.

Here are a couple of emails that explains this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,118.0.html -----

Man is made of TWO components--body and spirit. God never put a soul into Adam. The soul of man is not a component, but rather the product of two combined components, namely: body and spirit. God formed man's body out of the ground. He then breathed into this body the breath of life (spirit), and the MAN, not some separate component, but the man became a "LIVING SOUL."  The soul is not the living soul, but rather the man is the living soul. There is no soul without the body of man. 


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ----

the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David.  Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 04:09:38 PM by Kat »
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high pulpit

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2008, 04:09:29 AM »

Some more interesting thoughts (questions):

1. God said to Jeremiah:"Before I formed you (body and soul, depending on when consciousness is attained) in your mother's womb, I knew you (is that not spirit, coming from God, a part of God Himself) and I ordained you to be a prophet unto the nations..." (is this spirit not a definite program, thought(s), a plan, a predestined destiny which many times is not achieved (as God said to Jeremiah:"Say not you are a child....") due to this incorruptible body and the fallen world's influence and factors which we will eventually be saved from so that we can fully be this pan and attain to this fullness which is a true part of God, one with him ???????). Is God not building a family of Himself in which He will be ALL in ALL???

2. What does it mean when the bible says John the Baptist came "in the spirit (which spirit?) and power of Elijah". And what does Jesus really mean when He says that John the Baptist was Elijah which was to come?
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2008, 04:39:08 AM »

Some more interesting thoughts (questions):

1. God said to Jeremiah:"Before I formed you (body and soul, depending on when consciousness is attained) in your mother's womb, I knew you (is that not spirit, coming from God, a part of God Himself) and I ordained you to be a prophet unto the nations..." (is this spirit not a definite program, thought(s), a plan, a predestined destiny which many times is not achieved (as God said to Jeremiah:"Say not you are a child....") due to this incorruptible body and the fallen world's influence and factors which we will eventually be saved from so that we can fully be this pan and attain to this fullness which is a true part of God, one with him ???????). Is God not building a family of Himself in which He will be ALL in ALL???

2. What does it mean when the bible says John the Baptist came "in the spirit (which spirit?) and power of Elijah". And what does Jesus really mean when He says that John the Baptist was Elijah which was to come?


1. Here's a previous discussion regarding this passage: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,857.0.html

2. Copy of email reply from Ray:

Dear Addison:
How long have you be reading my material now?   You are doing what tens of thousands of detractors have done when they question my teaching--they MISS-QUOTE me virtually always. It is hard enough to be perfectly flawless in every word, phrase and statement of thousands of pages when I am quoted correctly. But people generally don't catch my real mistakes.  So let's be accurate about what I said with regards to THE JEWS:

[1]   "Jesus was speaking to THE JEWS in Matt. 7:21; and Jesus was speaking to THE JEWS in Luke 13:24."
 
Next with regards to THE CHURCH:
 
[2]   "Not only does it apply to the church today, it applies almost EXCLUSIVELY to the church of Christian believers from the time of the Apostles until this very day."
 
Now then, did I REALLY say what you said that I said?  DID I say: "...He was
T-A-L-K-I-N-G  'exclusively' to the church of Christian believers"?  NO, no I didn't.
 
Here is  what I said:  "...it    A-P-P-L-I-E-S    almost EXCLUSIVELY to the church of Christian believers." I never said that that He was  "TALKING"  exclusively to the Jews. There are dozens and dozens of Scriptures that are speaking to or about ONE person or persons, but that are APPLIED to someone else altogether.  Example, the prophesies concerning Joseph and Mary and the birth of Jesus.
 
Notice another example:  "But I [Jesus] say unto you, that ELIJAH is come already...Then the disciples understood that He SPOKE unto them OF JOHN the baptist" (Matt. 17:12--13).  Jesus "SAID Elijah," but He MEANT "John," because the SPIRIT of Elijah really did represent the spirit of John and his ministry.
 
So where I actually used the word "APPLIES," you said I used the word "talking," and where I did actually use the word "TALKING," you say I used the word "refers." And so you stated my position wrongly in both cases.
 
Paul speaks of carnal racial Jews, and spiritual GENTILE JEWS.  In my Towers paper at the very top of our home page I have a heading:  'WHEN ARE JEW NOT JEWS AND GENTILES ARE JEWS?'  You need to read ALL the material on our site and most of your questions will be answered for you.
 
God be with you,
Ray


Represent...like a shadow or type...something that points the way to something else.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2008, 10:47:03 AM »


Hi High Pulpit,

Quote
God said to Jeremiah:"Before I formed you (body and soul, depending on when consciousness is attained) in your mother's womb, 


First of all we do not pre-exist. I really don't think that is what you are saying, but just wanted to make sure.  And here is an email that shows what Ray thinks on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5611.0.html ----

Is it possible that we chose to be here in human form to experience what it is to sin because we are from perfect form and don’t know imperfection?   

    COMMENT:  That's just a bunch of double-talk.  Before we existed we didn't "choose" to be anything. Humans did not exist before they were physically born into this world.  Only God is perfect and God does have a knowledge of evil.  Being in the Image of God involves knowing good and evil.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Quote
I knew you (is that not spirit, coming from God, a part of God Himself)

All things are of God, so yes the spirit that gives us life is from God.

1Co 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Quote
and I ordained you to be a prophet unto the nations..." (is this spirit not a definite program, thought(s), a plan, a predestined destiny which many times is not achieved (as God said to Jeremiah:"Say not you are a child....") due to this incorruptible body and the fallen world's influence and factors


You have to understand that God is sovereign.  God has a predetermined plan worked out (nothing happens by chance) to the most minute detail, that is why He "knew" Jeremiah, He knows the end from the beginning" (Isa. 46:10). 

His being sovereign means He can not fall or not achieve to any degree His plan, it will be carried out to the utmost detail.  Sometimes what God would say to people in the OT was for 'their' benefit to bring about that part of His plan and God intended for it to go that way.  This world is going exactly the way God planned it to, He has not change a single thing because of this world's influences and factors.

A good Bible study you might want to read is 'Can a Sovereign God Change?'
transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.0.html

Audio
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 2.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 3.mp3

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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hammerandnails

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2008, 03:54:13 PM »

Dear Kat, I get it now!!!
Thanks again ;D
Blessings,
Ariel
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Amrhrasach

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2008, 11:58:39 AM »

For those interested here's another post that went into some good detail and varying views and understandings.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,769.0.html

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hammerandnails

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2008, 01:39:59 PM »

Dear KAT, here I am again!
Happy to hear from me??

As I revisited this issue, and though I understand what you and Ray are saying about man being
2 part, namely body and spirit, and the soul being the product of the 2, I am with you this far.

Again, how you can explain 1Tes.5:23???
     "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole
      SPIRIT AND SOUL AND BODY be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I am NOT contradicting what you are saying, I am only in need of your explanation of WHY
Paul wrote it like that?????
Somewhere in Ray's writings, he stated that everything in the scripture is of significance!!!!
I am simply asking what is the explanation behind Paul inspired by the HS listed these three components? ???

Please help me understand.
If this is a big issue, as I notice that it was in the link that Amrhrsach had posted, I am willing
to drop it.

Thank you again for your patience, kindness and wisdom.
Ariel


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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2008, 02:11:17 PM »

Dear KAT, here I am again!
Happy to hear from me??

As I revisited this issue, and though I understand what you and Ray are saying about man being
2 part, namely body and spirit, and the soul being the product of the 2, I am with you this far.

Again, how you can explain 1Tes.5:23???
     "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole
      SPIRIT AND SOUL AND BODY be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I am NOT contradicting what you are saying, I am only in need of your explanation of WHY
Paul wrote it like that?????
Somewhere in Ray's writings, he stated that everything in the scripture is of significance!!!!
I am simply asking what is the explanation behind Paul inspired by the HS listed these three components? ???

Please help me understand.
If this is a big issue, as I notice that it was in the link that Amrhrsach had posted, I am willing
to drop it.

Thank you again for your patience, kindness and wisdom.
Ariel


Spirit
Gk. pneuma
the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated

Soul
Gk. psychē (does this word look familiar?)
the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions

Body
Gk. sōma
the body both of men or animals


Paul states he prays that we, our whole self, be preserved blameless. Paul stated these three because 1. God created OUR body from the dust 2. God gave US the breath of life (spirit) and 3. WE are living souls. Man is not a 3 part being...Paul no where says man is a 3 part being...he only lists what he prays to be preserved blameless:

Spirit: The breath of life...the life we live to be preserved blameless

Body: Our body, the dust of the earth...to be preserved blameless

Soul: Us, living souls...to be preserved blameless.

Try not to look for more than what's there because you'll wrap your mind around countless speculative issues which you'll eventually find out do not edify you in the least. All of us have done this in times past and even some on occasion fall back into it. It's a road that leads to a dead end...you may not completely understand yet but many members here can and will testify to falling into this carnal activity.


Hope this helps,

Marques


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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2008, 02:55:59 PM »


Hi Ariel,

I don't think Paul was saying these as separate components, he is talking to believers here and he is just covering all the bases with that statement.

1Th 5:23  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He says "your whole spirit" pneuma; implying breath, the spirit of life.  "Soul" psuchē; which also imply the life, but that would also include the mind and heart.  "Body," I believe Paul was indicating your physical being or hoping they would substain from sinning with their body.  Because he goes on to say to "be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."  I believe they had hope that Christ would return in their lifetime.  Anyway that just my take on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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ScarletWren

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2008, 02:46:01 AM »

This all can be confusing.  I also believe that we become a living creature, or soul with the combination of the body and spirit.  But why indeed would Paul seem to separate these components and want our "breath?" to be blameless?

One thought I have, probably not very valid, is that when the Holy Spirit awakens us to our need of a savior and the filth that our life has been no matter how many 'good' works we may have produced in our own perceived 'righteousness', then a war begins.  That one that Paul refers to when he says he wants to do what is right but ends up doing what he knows isn't right.  So perhaps that is what he refers to, that at some point both "wills" within us will come into union and we will stop fighting to get the carnal desires.  If we are functioning properly, most humans develop a conscience of sorts and try to live up to that, but then the Holy Spirit steps in and the real battle begins.  There does seem to be more than one person inside at times.  But there is only one "me" inside there, and God will work it out to His satisfaction, for I am His workmanship and He has a vested interest in me.   I don't fully understand the relationship between God and His son or why sometimes the scripture writers referred to our soul and spirit the way they do, but I know that if and when the Father wills for me to know, it will be so clear.  But there's no harm in asking questions, you never know when something someone might say might cause the lightbulb to glow in the dark.


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high pulpit

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2008, 08:00:33 AM »

It is indeed amazing that the very essence of what we are and consist of is one of the most difficult things to grasp just like the difficulty in grasping and understanding the substance of God.

Thanks Kat and all of you for all the help as we grow in knowledge and understanding.

Other thoughts (questions):

When we die the spirit goes back to God who gave it (that's scripture) and when it's time for the next body (spiritual), God recombines them (new spiritual body and spirit, and that SAME person (soul) comes back alive. Right?
Does it mean that each spirit (that goes back to God, upon death, and that was given by God at birth) is unique to each person (in which case spirit cannot just be breath, but a definite personal program-like the electronic information on a DVD), since I don't think it is the new spiritual body that determines a person's unique personality. Or does God now invoke the personality of each unique person (which I don't think) as the soul is coming into being at the second joining between the spirit (with no personality code) and the new spiritual body?
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2008, 09:25:45 AM »

Excerpt from Ray's paper to Dr. Kennedy (http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm):

BODY

When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn. 11:38) where within a few days it begins to smell and decompose (Jn. 11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc., etc). The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is (Mat. 28:6). Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol (Jonah 2:2). Jonah was not "literally" in hell [sheol], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die. I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception inside the fish resembled his knowledge of the word "sheol."

SPIRIT

When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.

SOUL

When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep,

"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)

This is substantiated by the fact that:

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).

Again:

" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).

Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.

The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.

The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).

A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.

�         souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)

�         souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)

�         souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)

�         souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)

�         souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)

�         souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)

�         life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)

�         souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)

�         souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)

�         none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)

�         honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)

�         even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)

�         souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)

�         souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)

�         souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)

�         and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).

These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.

So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception).

Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.

FROM KING JAMES TRANSLATION:

SPIRIT
   

[pneuma]
   

is translated
   

LIFE in Rev. 13:5

SOUL
   

[nephesh]
   

is translated
   

HEART in Prov. 23:7, etc

HEART
   

[leb]
   

is translated
   

MIND in Prov. 21:27, I Sam. 9:20, etc.

SOUL
   

[nephesh]
   

is translated
   

LIFE in Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11, etc

SOUL
   

[nephesh]
   

is translated
   

GHOST in Job 11:2

SPIRIT
   

[pneuma]
   

is translated
   

GHOST in Mark 1:8

SOUL
   

[nephesh]
   

is translated
   

BEAST in Lev. 24:18.

BEAST
   

[chay]
   

is translated
   

LIFE in Lev. 18:18.

SOUL
   

[nephesh]
   

is translated
   

BODY in Lev. 21:11, Hag. 2:35, etc.

This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory.

The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.

Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Not one Scripture says that man is "immortal" or has an "immortal" soul. Not one. "Our Lord, Jesus Christ: the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality" (I Tim. 6:14-16).

It is by means of the "resurrection" that God causes dead people to live again. The Apostle Paul said: "Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged" (Acts 23:6). The truth regarding the "resurrection of the dead" is not even taught in Christendom today. They teach that there are no dead people (only dead bodies). They teach that people are either alive on earth, alive in Heaven, or alive in Hell. What need have we for a "resurrection of the dead" if there are no dead people to resurrect? This, my friend, is heresy!

Paul also stated: "Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection. 



Please continue to read Ray's papers as well as search through Ray's emails. While there is definitely nothing wrong with asking questions, 'the honour of kings is to search out a matter' [Ps. 25:2]. Ray has covered this topic extensively as there is no need for rampant speculation.

Out of the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses is every word established as well as no scripture interprets itself. In other words, 1 scripture does not define itself and when we try to do that, it will turn into carnal speculation 100% of the time. Personally, I would think it would be better to continue to seek understanding than to entertain speculative premises with no scriptural/spiritual connotation.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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ScarletWren

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2008, 12:07:37 PM »

ok Marquez,

Well how do you find understanding without at least trying to formulate some of your own thoughts?  You can parrot back someone else's thoughts and definitions all you want but until you start to put it into your own words you really don't understand.  Please don't take my tone as being accusitive or negative. 

I like a lot of what you say Marquez on certain subjects, but I see no harm in trying to get to the bottom of something you struggle with and hearing the thoughts of someone else can sometimes help even if you disagree.

I still haven't heard anything concrete on what exactly one's spirit is.  I read too many verses that tend to point that it is more than just the breath or something not intimately connected with 'us'.  But that we have some form of life after we die until the resurrection, no, I don't think so.  Paul said we are asleep in Christ, that doesn't sound like we are having a party or watching people still walking around on this earth.  I like High Pulpit's thoughts.

Hope all have a blessed and peaceful weekend. 
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2008, 01:12:44 PM »

ok Marquez,

Well how do you find understanding without at least trying to formulate some of your own thoughts?  You can parrot back someone else's thoughts and definitions all you want but until you start to put it into your own words you really don't understand.  Please don't take my tone as being accusitive or negative. 

I like a lot of what you say Marquez on certain subjects, but I see no harm in trying to get to the bottom of something you struggle with and hearing the thoughts of someone else can sometimes help even if you disagree.

I still haven't heard anything concrete on what exactly one's spirit is.  I read too many verses that tend to point that it is more than just the breath or something not intimately connected with 'us'.  But that we have some form of life after we die until the resurrection, no, I don't think so.  Paul said we are asleep in Christ, that doesn't sound like we are having a party or watching people still walking around on this earth.  I like High Pulpit's thoughts.

Hope all have a blessed and peaceful weekend. 


Many members here have given their thoughts as well as scriptures and excerpts from Ray's teachings regarding this subject. I stated there is nothing wrong with asking questions...the speculation however leads to a dead end.

You stated, "Why does Paul want our breath to be blameless?" Is that what the scriptures says? No, it states spirit. Did you not see my personal comments regarding this? What part are you disagreeing with? Not just with mine, but anyone's?

Are your thoughts formulated with 2 or 3 spiritual witnessess and a spiritual match? You have heard concretely what one's spirit is...you don't believe the scriptures presented and neither Ray's nor anyone else's comments. I already made a thread regarding these issues.


Marques
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hammerandnails

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2008, 03:02:42 PM »

Dear Marques,

As I read your display of knowledge, I stand in awe!!!
What a privilege to be in the company of such brilliant minds!!!!!

However, something is missing.

I wonder what the poor brother that you replied to understood?
How about if he has a job where he works maybe 12 hours a day to support his family,
and don't have time to do all that studying that you obviously do??
It will probably take me 2 whole days to even begin to digest what you listed above.

My dear brother, I endeavour to admonish you in the spirit of love.
And since you have so much knowledge, I am convinced that you know the following scriptures:

         "Though I speak with the tongues of man and of angels, and have not
          CHARITY, I am become as a sounding brass, or tinkling cymbal.

          "And though I have the gift of prophesy, and understand all mysteries, AND ALL KNOWLEDGE;
          and though I have all faith, so I could remove mountains, and I have not
          CHARITY, I am nothing.

         "CHARITY suffers long, and is kind; CHARITY envies not; CHARITY VAUNTS NOT
          ITSELF, is not PUFFED UP,"

But wait, where did I see this word PUFFED UP?????
Where can it be????

Oh, here it is! ::)
Silly me :-[

       "Now as touching things offered to idols, we know that we all have knowledge.
        KNOWLEDGE ------PUFFS UP,--------but charity edifies." 1Cor8:1


You remind me of a time when I thought that I arrived!!!
Yes I was there, and by the grace of God I made it out.

Oh, but wait, I found another scripture for you. [I love you, brother]

      "In MEEKNESS instructing those that oppose themselves;
       if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth."
       [I'm sure that you nkow where this scripture is.]

So, if I or ScarletWren are opposing ourselves, you as an older brother that you clearly are,
show us the love of Christ, and the goodness that is in you in Christ.

I have an issue with your statements that you made earlier.
Namely:
 "Try not to look at more than is in there... [Where are not looking for more than is in there, we are looking at WHAT IS IN THERE].

"...because you'll wrap your mind around countless speculations"[ questions are not speculations].
Wait, didn't you write this: "...the honor of the king is to search out a matter???? ??? ??? ???

"...issues that which you'll eventually find out do not edify you in the lest" [ to labor to understand does not edify?????] :o :o

"It's a road that leads to a dead end...."[I thought that we came to this site to learn, how is that a dead end?????]

"...you may not completely understand yet......" [you assumed that we are babes] :-[ :-[

"....to falling into carnal activity."  Beloved brother, THAT is the very words that does not edify. Dangerous stuff to tell a brother!!!!
And since when, since we are so stupid in the things of God, and clearly babes by your standard, is wrong to ask questions???
Is that carnal???

"Personally, I would think [ I knew a wise man that said: Wait for thought, for you are not ready for thought] it would be
better to continue to seek understanding [ that was pricelees  ;) ;) ;) WE ARE SEEKING UNDERSTANDING!!!] than to entertain speculative premises with no scriptural/spiritual connotation. [Thank God you put us in our place!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D]

And since we are so ignorant and dare to formulate, hmmmm, how did you call it? "rampart speculations", we better get to work and
read again Ray's writings.

In conclusion, dear brother you clearly opposing YOURSELF with your own words.

Furthermore, you remind me of a parrot that I had named Jenny. Before she flew away, she learned the sound
of the bark of my dogs!!!Isn't that something?
You repeatedly direct us to Ray's teaching?
What are you afraid of???????
For the love of God [like my ten year old says ], do you think that the moderators of this forum
can't stand a challenge if one of us did not understand or question Ray's teachings???
If Ray is a man of God [I'm sure he is] and a wonderful teacher [clearly] and full of God's wisdom [nobody can convince me otherwise],
along with all the moderators [which have studied his work and the word for a long time] we [in our folly] are no surprise to them.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe we are only in the beginning, and we have been starved for a long time, and by coming here hungry for the truth, also bring our churchite baggage with us, we looking to you to [IN LOVE] [is it there another right way???] to direct us as little disciples???

Or, did you stop to think [between those blows with the bible over our heads], that maybe this brother that dare to , how did you say it?
 "speculate", does not have all the time in the world to read as he would like to??

If you are here for a long time [which I see you are], did you ask yourself what image you portray to us that just got here looking for the love, direction, mercy, patience and the such??

If this people are all like you [which there are not] then I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE!!!!!

Now, beloved brother, I lift you to the Lord, and I pray for you.
I've been where you are.
I've done the same thing!!!!
I thought that if I teach doctors the latest in emergency medicine, and they looked at me with a dropped jaw, for the knowledge that I possess, I have arrived!!!!
Let the one that thinks he is wise become a fool, that he might be wise.
God made a fool out of me!!!
BLESSED BE HIS HOLY NAME FOREVER!!!!

I beseech you to ponder on your ways!!!

I would conclude with this [for the last time, I promise].

I hope I did not offend you because "a brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city"

I will admonish you to think on this proverb:

                 "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate you:
                  rebuke a WISE man and he will LOVE you." Prov.9:8


I love you
Ariel

P.S. I am studying the issue of spirit, soul and body. We will get to the bottom of this.
Don't be afraid to make mistakes.
The truth will stand no matter what we say or think.
Dare to be who you really are and these people in this forum [if they have God's love] they will still love you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Love you more,
Ariel




         
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