Spirit and Soul

[legoman]

I am trying to understand the difference between 'spirit' and 'soul.  In Genesis, God formed the man from the dust, breathed life into him, and the man became a living soul.

Basically:  Body + Spirit (God's breath of life) = Soul

When a man dies, his body returns to dust, his spirit returns to God, and his Soul goes to Hades (state of the dead).  Correct?

The confusing part is some verses seem to refer to 'spirit' and 'soul' as very similar things:

Job 7:11 "I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul."

There are other passages as well which speak of the spirit having understanding (Job 20:3), spirit of jealosy (Numbers 5:14), etc.

Now my understanding was the 'spirit' is not us, it is not our personality.  That is what the soul is.  But how can a spirit have understanding?

Or am I confusing the term 'spirit'?  What is 'spirit' or 'man's spirit' exactly?

This would be helpful to other people to explain what happens at death.  When people see that their spirit returns to God at death, they assume that means they go to heaven immediately.

I know Ray has talked on this, but any helpful links or discussion would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Dave in Tenn]

Sorry I probably can't find the link, but Ray gave a good physical example of the Body being like the Television set, the Spirit being the electricity, and the Soul being the 'program'.  Take away the spirit, and there is no 'soul', just a useless box.  (pretty dang useless even WITH the electricity, most of the time    )  So when God breathed (spirited) man, he became a living soul.

This certainly works in explaining what makes us alive and what makes us dead.  It doesn't explain as well the sense of man's spirit being a 'thing' that has its own conciousness.  I think for that we'd really need to define 'spirit', something I'll have to leave to better minds. 

[legoman]

Hi Dave,

Sorry I probably can't find the link, but Ray gave a good physical example of the Body being like the Television set, the Spirit being the electricity, and the Soul being the 'program'.  Take away the spirit, and there is no 'soul', just a useless box.  (pretty dang useless even WITH the electricity, most of the time    )  So when God breathed (spirited) man, he became a living soul.

Yes I had read that email of Ray's, and that makes sense.  I understand that without spirit, the light switch is off, we are not alive, etc.

This certainly works in explaining what makes us alive and what makes us dead.  It doesn't explain as well the sense of man's spirit being a 'thing' that has its own conciousness.  I think for that we'd really need to define 'spirit', something I'll have to leave to better minds. 

This is more what I was wondering about.  Does the 'spirit' that make us alive, also have some of our personality?

And is this the same spirit as when someone is talking about 'the holy spirit'?

I believe in Genesis it is 'man's spirit', not the 'holy spirit' that gave Adam life.

Likewise, when someone is spiritually dead, ie. completely carnal, they still have spirit right?  (Just not the holy spirit I guess) - otherwise they would be dead physically.

So many different spirit's - I need a good definition of them all...

Kevin

[sansmile]

Hiya, I had copied the following study into my folder, i beleive it was from Ray's letter to Hagee. It is a bit long but well worth reading hopw this helps.
God Bless
Sandie

SPIRIT

When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.



SOUL

When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep, "The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16) This is substantiated by the fact that: "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6). Again: " ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).

Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.

The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.

The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).

A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.

souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)

souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)

souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)

souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)

souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)

souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)

life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)

souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)

souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)

none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)

honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)

even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)

souls can hear (Acts 3:34)

souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)

souls die (Rev. 16:3)

souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)

and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).

These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.

So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception). Your teaching is blatantly false and deceptive!

Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.

FROM KING JAMES TRANSLATION:

SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated LIFE in Rev. 13:15
SOUL [nephesh] is translated HEART in Prov. 23:7, etc
HEART [leb] is translated MIND in Prov. 21:27, I Sam. 9:20, etc.
SOUL [nephesh] is translated LIFE in Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11, etc
SOUL [nephesh] is translated GHOST in Job 11:2
SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated GHOST in Mark 1:8
SOUL [nephesh] is translated BEAST in Lev. 24:18.
BEAST [chay] is translated LIFE in Lev. 18:18.
SOUL [nephesh] is translated BODY in Lev. 21:11, Hag. 2:35, etc.

This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory.

The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.

I am amazed that people put up with such irresponsible teaching. You teach that man has immortality in his soul. The Scripture says man is "mortal," and "Our Lord, Jesus Christ ... Who ONLY has immortality." Which do you think is true - your teaching or the Scriptures? What part of the word "ONLY" don't you understand, Dr. Kennedy?

Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Not one Scripture says that man is "immortal" or has an "immortal" soul. Not one. "Our Lord, Jesus Christ: the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality" (I Tim. 6:14-16).

It is by means of the "resurrection" that God causes dead people to live again. The Apostle Paul said: "Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged" (Acts 23:6). The truth regarding the "resurrection of the dead" is not even taught in Christendom today. They teach that there are no dead people (only dead bodies). They teach that people are either alive on earth, alive in Heaven, or alive in Hell. What need have we for a "resurrection of the dead" if there are no dead people to resurrect? This, my friend, is heresy!

Paul also stated: "Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection. This is most important to understand: "For, if the dead are not being roused [resurrected], neither has Christ been roused. Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith-you are STILL IN YOUR SINS." (Acts 15:16-18). That is just how important the resurrection is, and according to you and most Christian theologians, it isn't necessary at all, because you teach that man has an immortal soul that goes directly to Heaven or Hell without resurrection and thus make a mockery of the very Word of God.

And where, Dr. Kennedy, is all the "hell fire and brimstone" in all these verses on body, spirit, and soul? Where? If you don't understand the Scriptures concerning God's punishment and chastisement on mankind, fine, but don't force them into these versus regarding "the dead." And don't turn "ages" into "eternities" either. I'll comment on punishment, gehennah, the lake of fire, etc. later.


TV ANALOGY

Here is an analogy that is applicable and easy to understand: God's spirit gives life to the body. Only in life does a man have consciousness or sensation. When God takes back His spirit, the body and soul are dead.

Picture a TV console as representing the human BODY with all its intricate circuitry and components.

Now picture ELECTRICITY as the invisible, powerful force representing God's life-giving SPIRIT.

Picture the blank PICTURE TUBE as representing the SOUL.

Without the electricity (God's spirit), the TV and picture tube (body and soul) are dead. All the time I hear preachers talking about our souls and our spirits as if they were one and the same. Soul and spirit are not one and the same.

Next plug in the electricity (God's spirit). The TV comes to life, and we see the picture tube (soul) animated. We see color, sound, dancing, singing, talking, intelligent conversations, all live via satellite. The dead TV becomes a living, visible, animated, intelligent entity-"Soul." But notice very carefully, the Soul (the animated picture in the TV tube) is not one of the original components. It is not a component in and by itself, but is rather the result of two other vital components, Body and Spirit (the TV console and electricity).

At bedtime I sometimes tell my daughter to give the TV a rest. When one turns off the "on/off" switch the TV goes to "sleep." The power light is still on, but the TV is blank and silent.

But now, pull the plug and take away the electricity (spirit) and what happens to the TV console (body)? It dies. It's just a box of circuits. Not even the power light is on anymore. If left unplugged it will, in time, decay and return to the dust of the ground.

And what happens to the colorful animated picture on the screen (soul) when we take away the electricity (spirit)? Want the real answer? Ask a child. Let several children watch TV together, then pull the plug and ask them where the picture went? A child will shrug his shoulders or say "I don't know" or say "It disappeared." Guess what? He is Scripturally correct on all three counts.

Without spirit there is no life and no consciousness. Without power a TV has no life and no animated picture. It's dead.

If you were to ask an ancient Hebrew person what happens to the soul (the thinking, feeling, animated, sentient personality of a man) at death, he would shrug his shoulders or say "who knows" or just say "it disappears." That's what "Sheol" meant to the Hebrews. It was a question mark. And the Greeks had their word for the same idea (Hades-the UNSEEN, the IMPERCEPTIBLE), and hades and sheol are synonymous in Scripture (Acts 2:27).

There is one more profound Scriptural truth that is also perfectly analogous to the operation of a TV, and that is this. Picture God's Throne as the Broadcast Headquarters. The TV picture Tube, by itself, is not the source or originator of the picture it portrays on the screen. It is a channel for the signal transmitted from the TV Station and Tower. It can only manifest and portray on its screen that which is sent from the source [God]. And often the source [God] uses intermediaries like satellites [Angels] to relay the signals.

In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.

[Dave in Tenn]

Thanks, sansmile.  I didn't exactly have it right, did I?  The program comes from God in His wonderful sovereignty.

Ray indicates two things (at least) in regard to the Legoman's main question.  1.  Soul and Spirit are similar but not the same.  2.  Spirit is life (as both man and beast have it).

I don't believe so much that man HAS a soul as that man IS a soul.  We are not so much a body as we HAVE a body.  Soul and body interface.  Spirit (life) interfaces with both.  So things are less mechanical and seperate, making us a package.  What good--to run with Ray's analogy--is the TV set, the picture tube, and the power to run them without the programming--something happening?  Is it thinkable that the Spirit of God gives us worthwhile 'programs'/spiritual life while the carnal mind of man gives us harmful 'programs'/spiritual death? 

Like any physical example, to run this down a long time will reveal it's failure.  So I think we need to do as Ray suggested and 'run down' these definitions from usage in Scripture.         

[winner08]

sansmile as I was reading you post my keen eyes caught something you said. A dead person can not experience anything. Not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fable hell. is not (IN HEAVEN) a fable also? Is there such a place where a soul would go after death? No. No big deal maby I just misunderstood. It wouldn't be the first time or the last.

Darren

[winner08]

I have always took it as the spirit is what gives life to us and soul is what we are. Did not God say that man was formed out of the dust and He (God) breath breath into the mold and it became a living soul? When we die our spirit goes back to God. WOW does this mean that anything alive has a spirit?
Trees
grass
flowers
birds and animals all have a spirit in them?
rocks, dirt, mountains, and such do not?
do bugs and insects have a spirit. or just man?
If spirit is the breath of God that allowed us to become living creatures then would not everything living have the breath of God in them?

Just a thought, probable wrong. it would not be the first. or the last.


Darren

[Kat]

Hi Kevin,

I am trying to understand the difference between 'spirit' and 'soul.

Now my understanding was the 'spirit' is not us, it is not our personality.  That is what the soul is.  But how can a spirit have understanding?

Or am I confusing the term 'spirit'?  What is 'spirit' or 'man's spirit' exactly?

I have found a number of emails that should help with your questions.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html ---

It is true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul."  Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.  Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL.  Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood?  Good.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,118.0.html ---

until recent years, referred to man as having three "components"--body, soul, and spirit.  NOT TRUE. Man is made of TWO components--body and spirit. God never put a soul into Adam. The soul of man is not a component, but rather the product of two combined components, namely: body and spirit. God formed man's body out of the ground. He then breathed into this body the breath of life (spirit), and the MAN, not some separate component, but the man became a "LIVING SOUL."  The soul is not the living soul, but rather the man is the living soul. There is no soul without the body of man.  Understood?  God is not a trinity and neither is man a trinity.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html ---

The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul, and his soul is resultant outcome of our spirit being united with a body. God breathed the breath and spirit of life into the man formed from the dust of the ground, and the man then BECAME a living soul. He BECAME conscious of his own being. At death we are no longer conscious of our being or our death. Our spirit must be reunited with a new body in resurrection before we will regain the soul and consciousness that we had before we died.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3617.0.html ---

Man is "made up" as you put it of body and spirit. Soul is not an ingredient. Soul is the RESULT of uniting the spirit with the body. God made man of the dust of the ground and breathed His spirit into Adam, and then Adam BECAME A LIVING SOUL. God did not put "a soul" inside of Adam. When men die, the spirit returns to God, for spirit does not die. The body returns to the dust of the ground. The soul goes (that is ceases) to exist and is said to be in "sheol" or "hades" which is the realm of death, it is not a geographical location. Man has no memory or thoughts in death (Ecc. 9:5, etc., etc.).

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1675.0.html ---

    Yes, there is a spirit in man (AND ALL ANIMALS). Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46;  I Cor. 2:11; etc.).  There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body. God retains our spirit until resurrection when He puts our spirit into a new body and we once again become conscious or receive back the quality of "soul." We are said to have new "spiritual" bodies, not that we are made "spirits."

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,644.0.html ---

Don't make up phrases such as you have: "In spirit will I know myself?"  There is no such thing as "being in your spirit."  As a "being" you need a body. When your body dies, your "being" dies, your soul is gone (to the unseen, imperceptible--there is NO perception in death: not in your body, not in your soul, and not in your spirit). No one can live without a body. When our spirit is combined with a body, then and ONLY THEN do we have "soul" which is consciousness. At death no one has consciousness, or it wouldn't be death.
     
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3933.0.html ---

  At death, our spirit returns to God, but the spirit has not consciousness. The consciousness is called "soul," but the soul dies at death, and the body returns to the dust. In resurrection God puts our spirit back into a NEW body and we once again experience soul--life and animation.
         
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ---       
No, sheol is not the grave. There is another word for grave. Sheol is the "state" or "realm" or "condition" of the dead. And the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David.  Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1594.0.html ---

Every person (and animal) has a "spirit."  There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL.  God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord. ETc. Sorry, but it would take days to answer your question in detail.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4176.0.html ---

ALL men (and animals) have a spirit. This spirit gives life to the body and produces soul (feelings, thinking, emotions, etc.). But God dwells in our hearts and minds by way of His HOLY Spirit, which is a different spirit.

        God be with you,

        Ray

[aqrinc]

Kat,

Thank you for those excerpts, all together they make it quite clear that: body + Spirit (breath of life) = living soul.
The sum of the parts is two, the result of mixing the two is (one living soul). Separate the two and there is then
no (living soul), in laymans terms flour and water make (dough) when mixed together, flour without water is flour
and water without flour is water (no dough). That is my simplistic explanation for a very complex Scientific
Accomplishment, of course take it far enough and the analogy will break down.

george. 

[high pulpit]

I still have some questions and need some help here.
I believe the best way to understand us is to look at Jesus.

Right now He is Spirit, right, Living (life-giving) Spirit. Is there any soul about him now? as the first Man was a living soul? Of course He, the Living Spirit, was conscious (soul) of himself after the ressurrection.
We came through the first Man and are living souls but there is a development taking place, the salvation that is to make us like Him.The bible says we shall be like Him and one in/with Him. The Second Man is Spirit, as God is Spirit and definitely is conscious. So can we really say spirit is not conscious or should we say Spirit is/will be God, very part of God who we are returning to and we will be conscious (soul) of ourselves yet of God and in God and one with God and as God??? Also check where God mentions His soul in eg. "My soul shall have no pleasure in him....'
Help me somebody, if you can, with these thoughts.

[Akira329]

Hey High Pulpit,
I think you should reread sansmile post.
was a very good post!

body + spirit = living soul (the result of the two)
"spiritual" body + spirit = living soul (the result of the two)
Whats different? immortality
Scriptures do say God has a soul.

Check out 1 Corinthians 15 the whole chapter!
Hope this helps your understanding.

Antaiwan

[hammerandnails]

Hi, everybody!
Being that this is a subject of great importance for me, I still have some questions.

1. The explanations that you gave above make sense to a degree, and are scriptural,
however, to me they seem general for the entire humanity. Now if we are separated and
be a "peculiar people", where all these leave the "elect ones"??In which way are we different from
a person without Christ??

2. If we are the same, can someone explain to me the "inner man of the heart"?
  " For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet
    the inward man is renewed day by day."  2Cor.4:16
        which is a spiritual match with: (I believe)
 
   "But let it be the hidden man of the heart in that which
    is not corruptible even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit ,
    which is in the sight of God of great price."  1Pet.3:4

Who is this "inner man" and why is of great price in the sight of God?

3. As I studied the Tabernacle of Moses (not extensively), and if the Tabernacle be Christ,
why the Tabernacle has 3 parts? Outher court, Holy Place and Holy of Holies?
Why God instructed Moses to start with the Ark of the Covenant first, then
the rest.

4. What is "Christ in you the hope of glory" Col.1:27?
Or maybe should I ask where?

I am sorry, I am new at this forum and to the Truth, as now I am trying to unlearn
the things that I learned in the "church".
Sorry if I have so many questions. I just want to understand.
It was simple to me before where I understood that man has three parts, body
soul and spirit, as matched by the tabernacle which has 3 parts, the outher court,
Holy Place and Holy of Holies, the antichrist (which I know now is me) his number was
666, which is the number of man, which matches humanity, namely man body, man soul,
man spirit, that only when you ad The One, Christ we can become 777, which is the
number of completion, without Him we are just 666, etc.

Thank you and I am grateful for shedding some light in my darkness!
Love in Christ
Ariel
   

[Kat]

Hi hammerandnails,

I think the answer to your questions is the God has begotten the Elect with the Holy Spirit of Christ, which makes them a "peculiar people."     

1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Col 1:27  To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

A few He chooses out of the called to receive the Holy Spirit, that's what makes them different.  Only those that He chooses have their eyes opened to these truths, which are "the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles."  With Christ in you, then you begin understanding God's plan and purpose - hope.  We are begotten now, but have hope, if we are faithful to the end, of becoming full fledged sons at the resurrection.

Here is an email about sonship.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4452.msg34236.html#msg34236 ----

         Webster's New Twenteth Century Dictionary Unabridged:"sonship"--"the STATE OF BEING A SON"

        Romans 8:15....

        "But you have received a spirit of SONSHIP"  (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)

         "...but a Spirit which makes us SONS"  (The New English Bible)

         "...you have received the Spirit of SONSHIP"  (Moffatt Translation)

         "...you received the Spirit of SONSHIP" (New International Version)

         "...but you received a Spirit of SONSHIP" (Emphatic Diaglott).

         "...but you got the spirit of SONSHIP" (Concordant Literal New Testament) Etc.

         We are not merely adopted into the Family of God, but rather God has "BEGOTTEN us" [Gk: 'beget, be born--regenerate']" (I Pet. 1:3). And:  "Being BORN AGAIN [same Greek word], not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God..."  (Verse 23).

         No, our final destination is to be BORN into the Kingdom of God, not just an "adoption." Some bibles do not ever use the word "adoption."  Even if we were to accept these Scriptures as "adoption," we still have the added knowledge that we are to be BORN into the Kingdom of God.

         We are all "called," but is that our final destiny?  No, there is also (in addition to the called) those called ones who are CHOSEN, and even among the chosen, there must be the FAITHFUL (Rev.17:14).  Judas was called and chosen, but he was NOT FAITHFUL UNTIL THE END!!
----------------------------------------------------------
       
mercy, peace and love
Kat

[legoman]

Hi Kat,

If I can just clarify (and ask for clarification), there are 2 different spirits we are talking about here.

ALL men who are living have spirit (God's breath of life), otherwise they would not be alive.

However a small subset have the Holy Spirit, which gives them understanding and a knowledge of the truth.  Am I correct on this?

Just clarifiying, because when discussing this with mainstream Christians, it seems like they lump the two together.  As in, when someone dies, if they have the holy spirit they go to heaven (because the spirit returns to God), but if they don't have the holy spirit they go to hades (hell) because they don't have a spirit or are spiritually dead (ie. no holy spirit). 

It all becomes a big jumbled kerfuffle if you think of it as all one spirit, but I think thats what the majority of people believe.

Just trying to sort it out for myself.  The breath of life is not the holy spirit.

Kevin

[mharrell08]

Just clarifiying, because when discussing this with mainstream Christians, it seems like they lump the two together.

It all becomes a big jumbled kerfuffle if you think of it as all one spirit, but I think thats what the majority of people believe.

They do not have a knowledge of the truth nor do they want to hear it. They lump all kinds of beliefs together and always come out sounding confusing. You could be the most eloquent man on earth and it wouldn't make a difference. A blind person cannot see...

Just trying to sort it out for myself.  The breath of life is not the holy spirit.

Exactly




Marques

[hammerandnails]

But who is the "inner man"?
I'm sory, but right now my mind does not help me much, and I tend to think
in black and white.
Where exactly is the "inner man" and where does he reside?
If he is in the soul, why is he hidden?
Is he "Christ in me"?

[Kat]

Hi Legoman,

If I can just clarify (and ask for clarification), there are 2 different spirits we are talking about here.

ALL men who are living have spirit (God's breath of life), otherwise they would not be alive.

However a small subset have the Holy Spirit, which gives them understanding and a knowledge of the truth.  Am I correct on this?

Yes, that is what I believe.  As all receive the spirit of life at physical birth, so every person alive has this spirit.  But we then also need the spirit of Christ/Counselor/Comforter/Spirit of truth, to be given to us.

John 15:26  But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he (it) will bear witness to me;

But who is the "inner man"?

I believe that this "inner man" is the mind or our conscience or soul.  This is who we are, what character we have, our morals.  The body is the outward or visible man; the soul, the inward, hidden, or invisible man.

Eph 3:16  That he would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man;

2Co 4:16  For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

It is the Spirit of Christ that comes and He begins to strengthen us and teaches us how to live rightous.

Isa 2:3  ...He will teach us His ways,
       And we shall walk in His paths."
       For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
       And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Luke 12:12  For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hammerandnails]

 
I started on a quest to find out exactly the difference between the spirit and soul.
Here it is, but I cannot list the scripture just yet because I  got to start dinner.
I will give the scripture latter this evening.

When man became a living soul, it became so by the aid of the spirit.
You cannot have soul (living) without the spirit and spirit without soul.
To the conscious mind there are one and the same.
Now in order to "walk in the spirit" (Gal.), you must know the difference, you must discern which one
is which. For that reason we must be "sifted as wheat" in order to be converted.
In addition to that, the word must cut "assunder " bet. the soul and spirit.
Then and only then, we will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh,
when we are sifted or separated completely.
Did it ever happened to you to have the most glorious revelation or pious thoughts, and the
very second after that the most evil thought that you wonder where that came from?
We are not separated yet, not completely!!
Until then we are a mixture. (Job)
Mixed waters!!! (James) We must be purified, and that is accomplished
by separating, sifting, cutting.

Love you all,
Ariel

[hammerandnails]

One more thing.
I believe the "inner man" is Christ forming in you. ..."until Christ is formed in you."
And is growing as to the degree of separation.
More separation, more growing.
It may take a life time!!
Now I'm going to make dinner.

Talk to you later!
Ariel

[Beloved]

Yes Ariel

  Just like being created when spirit is added to physical flesh


   Being reborn  seems to entail two parts:
               separation (dieing to carnal self )     and
               quickening (Christ spirit replacing our plain  spirit)

   then at Resurrection
       those dead will be quickended and given a spiritual body
       those alive will be quickened and receive a spiritual body

here are some scriptures on quickening to ponder

Psa 80:18  So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

Psa 119:25  My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

Psa 119:37  Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

.
Joh 5:21  For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
:
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

1Co 15:36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)

beloved