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Author Topic: Spirit and Soul  (Read 9634 times)

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mharrell08

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Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2008, 04:27:30 PM »

My dear brother, I endeavour to admonish you in the spirit of love.
And since you have so much knowledge, I am convinced that you know the following scriptures:

I never stated I have so much knowledge nor even imply so. If I have, please direct me to my own words.

You remind me of a time when I thought that I arrived!!!
Yes I was there, and by the grace of God I made it out.

 ??? How so...what do you mean, 'thought I had arrived'?

So, if I or ScarletWren are opposing ourselves, you as an older brother that you clearly are,
show us the love of Christ, and the goodness that is in you in Christ.

Who stated that you are Scarlet Wren oppose yourself? Taking the time to assist with understanding scriptures and/or Ray's teaching is not love?

I have an issue with your statements that you made earlier.
Namely:
 "Try not to look at more than is in there... [Where are not looking for more than is in there, we are looking at WHAT IS IN THERE].

You mean when I stated, "Try not to look for more than what's there"? The question was originally asked by you regarding 1 Thess 5:23 where Paul stated spirit, soul, and body. What I was stating is how does Paul listing these 3 does that automatically make man a 3 part being as your comments imply? If I was off-base, I apologize. If not, what are you implying then that you believe this 1 scripture contradicts the many that have been given by multiple members?

"...because you'll wrap your mind around countless speculations"[ questions are not speculations].
Wait, didn't you write this: "...the honor of the king is to search out a matter???? ??? ??? ???

Searching out a manner compared to speculating on a forum devoted to going over spiritual truths (not speculations) is not the same. Please re-read the forum rules or the thread I created regarding observing these forum rules.

"...issues that which you'll eventually find out do not edify you in the lest" [ to labor to understand does not edify?????] :o :o

Speculative discussions do not edify as those who speculate tend to hold onto their own pre-conceived belief and refuse to believe scriptures. How is attempting to justify your own personal beliefs edifying to anyone else?

"It's a road that leads to a dead end...."[I thought that we came to this site to learn, how is that a dead end?????]

We all have come here to learn...not to debate topics that Ray and others have went over extensively. As I stated elsewhere, when a counsel of members are giving a member scripture upon scripture with Ray's teachings and that member still does not 'get it', maybe that member needs to read and study more instead of arguing or making fruitless points.

"...you may not completely understand yet......" [you assumed that we are babes] :-[ :-[

No, I don't...I assume when someone asks questions and/or continue to imply contrary to what is being taught on BT, then that person HAS NOT READ NOR STUDIED Ray's teachings. Which is the complete opposite of what the forum rules state.

"....to falling into carnal activity."  Beloved brother, THAT is the very words that does not edify. Dangerous stuff to tell a brother!!!!
And since when, since we are so stupid in the things of God, and clearly babes by your standard, is wrong to ask questions???
Is that carnal???

Doctrine speculation is a carnal activity...does the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth or rampant speculation? Is it the spirit of God that makes you want to know any and every doctrine issue RIGHT NOW without taking the time to read and study or is it your own carnal reasoning?

"Personally, I would think [ I knew a wise man that said: Wait for thought, for you are not ready for thought] it would be
better to continue to seek understanding [ that was pricelees  ;) ;) ;) WE ARE SEEKING UNDERSTANDING!!!] than to entertain speculative premises with no scriptural/spiritual connotation. [Thank God you put us in our place!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D]

Continue to belittle me if you wish...expressing my personal thought is not meant to 'put one in their place'.

And since we are so ignorant and dare to formulate, hmmmm, how did you call it? "rampart speculations", we better get to work and
read again Ray's writings.

I have never called a brother or sister on the forum 'ignorant'. If you are truly going to continue to read and study Ray's teachings, good. But if you are just patronizing because you disdain my words, oh well...

In conclusion, dear brother you clearly opposing YOURSELF with your own words.

Which words are those?

Furthermore, you remind me of a parrot that I had named Jenny. Before she flew away, she learned the sound
of the bark of my dogs!!!Isn't that something?
You repeatedly direct us to Ray's teaching?
What are you afraid of???????
For the love of God [like my ten year old says ], do you think that the moderators of this forum
can't stand a challenge if one of us did not understand or question Ray's teachings???
If Ray is a man of God [I'm sure he is] and a wonderful teacher [clearly] and full of God's wisdom [nobody can convince me otherwise],
along with all the moderators [which have studied his work and the word for a long time] we [in our folly] are no surprise to them.

1. I direct you to Ray's teachings because I am not a teacher and even if I were, the forum is not for teaching.

2. Why would I be afraid?

3. The purpose of the mods is not to 'challenge' and debate with members. Your very words speak of your intentions.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe we are only in the beginning, and we have been starved for a long time, and by coming here hungry for the truth, also bring our churchite baggage with us, we looking to you to [IN LOVE] [is it there another right way???] to direct us as little disciples???

I speak very direct but that does not mean it is not 'in love'. The truth grinds on people's ears and hearts...this discussion is another example.

Or, did you stop to think [between those blows with the bible over our heads], that maybe this brother that dare to , how did you say it?
 "speculate", does not have all the time in the world to read as he would like to??

Now scripture are blows to your head? I thought scripture was for reproof and correction. Do you not believe these words that Paul was inspired to say?

What does not having time to read and study have to do with arguing against or implying differently than what is being taught on BT? You have time to post...make time to read and study the scriptures and Ray's teachings.

If you are here for a long time [which I see you are], did you ask yourself what image you portray to us that just got here looking for the love, direction, mercy, patience and the such??

You don't want direction...you state that that is only 'parroting' what we heard.

If this people are all like you [which there are not] then I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE!!!!!

This is the pride issue that Dennis mentioned with those who have left in the 'Where are they now' thread. History repeats itself indeed...

Now, beloved brother, I lift you to the Lord, and I pray for you.
I've been where you are.
I've done the same thing!!!!
I thought that if I teach doctors the latest in emergency medicine, and they looked at me with a dropped jaw, for the knowledge that I possess, I have arrived!!!!
Let the one that thinks he is wise become a fool, that he might be wise.
God made a fool out of me!!!
BLESSED BE HIS HOLY NAME FOREVER!!!!

Whenever we rely on our own carnal reasoning, we make a fool out of ourselves. God does not need to help us in that department at all.

P.S. I am studying the issue of spirit, soul and body. We will get to the bottom of this.
Don't be afraid to make mistakes.
The truth will stand no matter what we say or think.
Dare to be who you really are and these people in this forum [if they have God's love] they will still love you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I am who God has made me to be...and you are offended. You resist direction and correction because you would rather we all indulge in your own pre-conceived beliefs. No thank you...



Marques



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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2008, 06:51:07 PM »

Marques and Ariel,

Please continue this in private emails or PM's.

Dennis
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hammerandnails

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Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2008, 07:12:50 PM »

Dear brother Marques,

You are fighting a lost battle!
Yea, your are the one that lost.

And since I clearly see now that I have more sense that you, I will end this now,
without going any further.

But not before I make the following statements:

This is the conclusions that I arrived [from your posts only] as I ponder on this issue:

1. That if we don't know Ray's teaching in depth, I have two options:
        A: You have no business here in the league with the the VERY ELECT which you PROFESS to be
                        or

        B: If we want to be here, fake and pretend that you know.

2. How easy is to turn into a Pharisee.

3. That I can exchange the mask that I had in the church for a new one.

4. How hard if for man to admit that they made a mistake.

5. How easy is lose the love for our fellow man.

Thanks be unto God, that he left checks and balance in 1Cor 13.

If I were you [I was you, but no longer] I would go and read again the above chapter.

You enlisted the Lord Jesus as talking with authority.
Are you implying that you are like Him?
Because, as far as I know my Jesus, he also had love and tenderness, which you, my brother are devoid of.

Furthermore,
My Master Jesus made these statements:

                 "But it shall not be so among you: but WHOSOEVER will be GREAT among you,
                  let him be your servant;
                  And whosoever will be chief among you, let him become your servant:
                 EVEN AS THE SON OF MAN CAME NOT TO BE MINISTERED TO, BUT TO MINISTER,
                  AND TO GIVE HIS LIFE A RANSOM FOR MANY."

Clearly you are great, but you remained a Pharisee!!

Do you remember the parable with the servant where the master had forgiven a large debt
than he turned around and he was unforgiven to the one who was owing him a smaller debt? [Mathew 18:23-35]

Do you remember what that lord did to the unforgiving servant?
Yea, that one, you got it!!

Now, my question is this:

Who died and make you moderator?
Or you think that if a brother or sister "rambles" are they[the moderators] not capable to admonish that one?
I did not hear anything from them!!
Hmmmmmm, I wonder why???

Because THEY ARE WISE AND KNOW THE LOVE OF GOD!!!
I said some stupid and idiotic things, but Kat direct me gently towards the truth.
And I got it!!! ;D ;D
 
The word of God said that mercy and truth had kissed eachother, not just truth.

I am appalled at your attitude!!!
If this is what I should look forward to, I don't want it!!!
I might as well throw away all the teachings that I printed and rely on the Spirit of truth to teach me.

You talk about the whore of Babylon, but if you continue like that you're no better. :'( :'( :'(

So, let me leave you with this:

If myself or my brother Scarlet made a mistake, you that are so wise should have caused us to see the way.
But wait, what scripture I know that reflects that??

            "But if you have stood in my counsel, and had caused My people to hear my
             words, then THEY SHOULD HAVE ------TURNED---------FROM THEIR EVIL WAY
             and from the evil of their doings."

Clearly you have not cause us to turn, but beat us with a rod of your authority!!! :'( :'( :'(

I ask for your forgiveness if I stepped on some of your holy toes, and I pray that God will heal your toes.
I also pray that if I am wrong to humble me in front of you all!!!
And if he does, it will be His will and for my benefit.

There are no coincidences, right??
So, if this happened, it happened for a reason, IT IS THE WILL OF GOD!!!
Therefore, is either me that I need humbling or you.

If I am the one, I bow my head to the Lord any day.
If you ......only the Lord knows!!!

I forgive you, and let you have the last word.
I will not bring up this matter unless the moderators ask me to.

Grace, love and peace in the Lord Jesus Christ! ;D
Ariel






 
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indianabob

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Re: Spirit and Soul: peace
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2008, 08:34:45 PM »

From Indiana bob

Copyright Leslie A Turvey, 2008
 
The apostle Paul wrote, “Be angry, but sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath (Ephesians 4:26).”
   The Good News Bible says it this way, “If you become angry, do not let your anger lead you into sin, and do not stay angry all day.”
   Many people think Paul’s admonition, “let not the sun go down upon your wrath,” means don’t go to bed angry. That’s good advice, because your unresolved anger will cause you to toss and turn all night, and in the morning you’ll wonder if you slept at all.
   But note what the GNB says: “do not stay angry all day.” God’s days begin at sunset, so if you hang on to your anger when the sun goes down, you’re actually carrying it into another day. And, if that day, then likely another and another and so on.
   Two farmers, Tom and Ed, had been good neighbours for many years, but one day, while Tom was hunting, he accidentily killed one of Ed’s pigs.
   Now, if Ed had been a bible-abiding man he would have done what Jesus commanded in Matthew 18:15, “If someone does you wrong, go and discuss the matter with him.” But instead, Ed chose to shoot one of Tom’s sheep.
   There’s a wise saying, “When you seek revenge, dig two graves.” And Ed’s revenge caused many more graves to be dug. Some were for livestock, but the feud escalated until family members became targets, and eventually Tom and Ed were laid to rest.
   Years later only one son from each family remained. One day the two met in town, and each drew his gun. Then, after a short standoff one fellow put his gun back into its holster: the other did likewise. The townsfolk were astounded to see the two men shaking hands, and going together for a beer.
   What made the difference? They both realized the cause of the feud had long been forgotten, and their deaths would solve nothing. So, although it was way too late, the feud was finally called off.
   Shakespeare’s Twelfth Night begins, “If music be the food of love, play on.” An opposite to that might be, “If anger be the food of feuds, stop playing.” Too often anger over rather insignificant matters leads to reprisals and feuds.
   Christians don’t get into shoot-em-up feuds, of course, but too many Christians carry on feuds of words. Sometimes it’s open argument between two people, but more often it’s a matter of sniping: a cutting word here; a sideway glance there. Naturally the two parties have their cohorts, and whispers and finger-pointing take place.
   Here’s a revelation for you: the same things took place in the early Christian churches. The apostle Paul must have seen it in the congregation at Ephesus because he wrote, “I plead with you that your life measures up to the standard God set when he called you, always being humble, gentle, and patient. Express your love by being tolerant of each other, and do all you can to preserve peace and unity (Ephesians 4:1-3) which is a fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9).” He continued, “Get rid of all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and shouting, and insults, and hateful feelings. Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you (Ephesians 4:31-32).” Remember, Jesus says we’re to ask God to forgive us, in the same way, and in the same measure, that we forgive others (Matthew 6:12; Luke 11:4).
   So we have God’s command that we put our guns back into their holsters, shake hands, and go together in peace.
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Beloved

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Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2008, 09:17:20 PM »

(Php 2:1)  If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

(Php 2:2)  Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
(Php 2:3)  Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

(Php 2:4)  Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

(Php 2:5)  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


beloved
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high pulpit

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Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2008, 08:18:52 AM »

I am definitely not a babe in Christ. I have pastored and taught very "apostically" for years until I realised the very many doctrinal errors in Mystery Babylon which cannot contain me now. Praise God, I stumbled upon L. Ray Smith and what fine teacher he is, but that does not mean we should assume that everything L. Ray Smith says or scripture-interprets should be regarded as 100% perfectly true. We should also bear in mind that the bible, literally as it is may not all be totally inspired and has a lot of tranlation errors.

I know this is one of the most intriguing topics which will open up a very full understanding of God, mankind and his plan. Let's not limit and short-circuit the great truth-seeking work the Lord has began with L. Ray Smith and with all of us.
 
God is SPIRIT, Jesus now is LIVING SPIRIT and we are created in His image and we can't just blow away interesting thoughts and views which also have some scriptural basis (if you have got deep enough into the things of God you will agree with me that the bible presents a very complex maze which leads to many viewpoints. God loves parables and we need and will always need His help to understand and that requires that we keep on searching and be ready to check and test and prove all things)
Let's just stick to the topic and give our thoughts and sciptural viewpoints.
If you want the full truth, you must continue to question. I believe God has set His revelation such that ... in that day (or could it be a personal attainment of a spiritual level?), we shall know Him even as we are known of Him. If you are not there yet (which I believe none of us is yet), continue to question the MASTER, my friends.


In the context of this topic and discussion,
Can someone explain, when Paul says: " If I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit (is this breath?) prays but my understanding (is this not soul?) is unfruitful?

Thank You

Check on you tomorrow.
Love you ALL!!!


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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2008, 09:12:45 AM »

I know this is one of the most intriguing topics which will open up a very full understanding of God, mankind and his plan. Let's not limit and short-circuit the great truth-seeking work the Lord has began with L. Ray Smith and with all of us.

Excerpt from 'How the Forum is Moderated':

Ray does not cover all that is within scripture but what he does cover we believe to be true; as such we try our best to keep discussions centered on Ray’s teaching of the scripture and to keep out the leaven of other teachings.  If we didn’t do this, how long do you think it would take for the forum to turn into chaos?  Who would you trust to determine what is right?  I say the Spirit revealed this to me and you say the Spirit revealed something entirely different, who do you trust?   What of this scripture?


Many members have posted numerous references from Ray's papers & emails regarding soul, spirit, and body. If you do not agree wholeheartedly with them and believe the scriptures imply otherwise, why not email Ray? It's not about limiting the truth it's just no one here (that's I've read) has stated they are a teacher even on a lesser level than Ray. Your questions keep coming back to the same thing: they seem to imply that you think differently than what Ray has taught on using 1 or 2 scriptures here and there. That's fine, really it is. But the forum is not a place for members to teach each other Ray's teachings. It is a place for those to congregate when they do believe and understand.

Members here express their viewpoints in agreement with Ray's teachings. If they feel otherwise or feel lead to a deeper discussion of a subject that Ray has not touched on, they do not bring that to the forum. That is not the purpose of the forum. This is the #1 attribute that separates this forum from 'Christian' forums. Otherwise, believe it or not, chaos would ensue as any and everyone would be wanted to teach here. Again, that is not the purpose of the forum.

Please don't think that I wish to 'shut you down' or stop seeking after the Lord, it's just remember what the purpose of the forum is about. It's the same rules WE ALL AGREED UPON when we joined.


Thanks,

Marques
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2008, 11:53:14 AM »


I am definitely not a babe in Christ. I have pastored and taught very "apostically" for years until I realised the very many doctrinal errors in Mystery Babylon which cannot contain me now. Praise God, I stumbled upon L. Ray Smith and what fine teacher he is, but that does not mean we should assume that everything L. Ray Smith says or scripture-interprets should be regarded as 100% perfectly true. We should also bear in mind that the bible, literally as it is may not all be totally inspired and has a lot of tranlation errors.


I can agree that there are apparent contradictions and translation errors in the many versions of the Bible, but isn't a bit presumptuous to declare that these things were not inspired or preordained? Could man really do this of his own accord? I am not trying to be confrontational but can man do anything without God allowing it, can we thwart Him?

In regard to mistranlations could they be what Paul is speaking of here?


2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The above verse would seem to fit with the following as well;

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
 
Rev 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book.

Paul wrote;

2Ti 3:16  All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

One could ask, so what is up with that? All of it is inspired yet we have this dire warning about adding or taking away from the Word? Is He in charge or what? As Ray brought up many times "if God had not allowed it than there would be no need for this declaration," so we must contemplate the purpose of His reason for allowing these mistranslations. It goes back to the bible being one big parable/riddle even sacred secret.

Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

The other part of your statement I totally agree with is how God uses riddles and parables in speaking to his people, Ray goes so far to say the entire Bible is indeed a parable!
 
Eze 17:2  Son of man, put forth a riddle and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

Eze 20:49  Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?

Luk 8:10  And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries3466 of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see and hearing they might not understand.

(Personally I believe secret is a better translation than mystery)

G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or “mystery” (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.

Marques brought up a very important point in his response;


Members here express their viewpoints in agreement with Ray's teachings. If they feel otherwise or feel lead to a deeper discussion of a subject that Ray has not touched on, they do not bring that to the forum. That is not the purpose of the forum. This is the #1 attribute that separates this forum from 'Christian' forums. Otherwise, believe it or not, chaos would ensue as any and everyone would be wanted to teach here. Again, that is not the purpose of the forum.

Please don't think that I wish to 'shut you down' or stop seeking after the Lord, it's just remember what the purpose of the forum is about. It's the same rules WE ALL AGREED UPON when we joined.


Without a doubt this is very true, this Forum's purpose is to discuss the articles on Bible Truths, it is also true that once we weave away from the original intent of this guideline the debates, strife, accusations, hurt feelings, etc. take hold and spiritual edification is replaced by clashes of egos (the beast lives!).

It happens every time we moderators fail to address the issue as it begins to manifest itself. There is so much material we can discuss, ask questions about, expound upon and testify to the implications of or the life changing attributes they have produced.

I do not know of any serious member who does not verify the scriptures Ray quotes and blindly accepts everything written, but we have had many new folks come through here saying they do not agree 100% with what he has written. Actually there is no problem with disagreeing but if we follow the rules we have all agreed to when we joined those disagreements should be brought directly to Ray.

If anyone has a question or comment about the rules or a question about any articles on BT please feel free to PM me (or another moderator) and we will do the best we can in getting you an answer.

Peace,

Joe
   

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high pulpit

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2008, 03:29:26 AM »

I'm still hoping to get some inputs on 1 Cor 14:10- where Paul states "my spirit prays, but mu uderstanding (which must be soul) is unfruitful" and he goes on to say "..I will sing with my spirit and I will sing with my understanding also...)
I was reading Heb 4 yersterday and verse 12 talks about the division by the Word of God of and makes parallels (not equals) of the following:

Joints     and     Marrow

"="

Soul      and      Spirit

"="

Thoughts  and   Intents

Think about this.

Any inputs?
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high pulpit

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2008, 08:50:03 AM »

Some few more thoughts:

*************Sorry Teaching not allowed*******************


Then, let's not shy away from understanding "spirit" !!!


Thank you.


On this topic, I think from now on I will proceed to send e-mails to Ray as I don't want to break any forum rules.
I would gladly welcome comments, inputs and any excerpts from Ray's teachings that would help me.



« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 08:56:25 AM by Craig »
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high pulpit

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2008, 09:23:13 AM »

Falcon

Forgive my misquoting of verse 10/14..... I'm typing in my workplace, lunchtime, with no bible close to me.

About my last post quoting Hebrews 4:12, I admit I may not have perfectly illustrated my intention:

1.Joints and marrow        2. Soul and Spirit           3. Thoughts and Intents

of the heart (inner man)

are 3 groups of concepts which are being paralleled with each group having two elements which are being clearly separated and divided.

The aim of the parallel, a parable you may say, is to achieve (relational) understanding.

Now let me ask, if joints, thoughts and soul are being paralleled
                  and marrow, intents and spirit are being paralleled on the other hand,
is it far-fetched to conclude that a soul has thoughts and a spirit has intents (or purposes, from the Divine consciousness it came from and in whose image it is, in the first place. And now you can think about my earlier post about Paul praying, singing, blessing God with his spirit and Jesus seeking true worshippers to worship in spirit...... Also: Jeremiah, "Before I formed you in your mother's womb, I knew you and ordained you to be a prophet (here goes the intents)....,Say not you are a child (there goes the thoughts)... For you shall go to all that I shall send you..."(and that is the work of the Lord, Praise God!!!)...) ?

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high pulpit

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2008, 09:42:48 AM »

As I wrote earlier, I will try to abide by all forum rules and gladly welcome any sanctions in pure love, peace and understanding.

Falcon, I like the following scripture you quoted in your last post and would like you to analyse it more carefully :
Deuteronomy 32:14
Thus saith the Lord God: I myself will take of the MARROW of the high CEDAR, and will set it: I will crop off a tender twig from the top of the branches thereof, and I will plant it on a mountain high and eminent.

I hereby proceed to stay off this topic but would very much love Ray to be given my questions which were deleted in a previous posting.

God bless
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Falconn003

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Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2008, 10:04:09 AM »

As I wrote earlier, I will try to abide by all forum rules and gladly welcome any sanctions in pure love, peace and understanding.

Falcon, I like the following scripture you quoted in your last post and would like you to analyse it more carefully :
Deuteronomy 32:14
Thus saith the Lord God: I myself will take of the MARROW of the high CEDAR, and will set it: I will crop off a tender twig from the top of the branches thereof, and I will plant it on a mountain high and eminent.

I hereby proceed to stay off this topic but would very much love Ray to be given my questions which were deleted in a previous posting.

God bless


I never ANALYZE Scripture. so i am not any help in that matter,,,sorry but it is like 100+ scriptures that instruct/command me, too let the Holy Spirit show me Knowledge of the Word of God, instead of applying me own worldy knowledge to the Gosple..... tis me.

Peace
Rodger
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 10:57:27 AM by Falconn003 »
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high pulpit

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Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2008, 10:52:50 AM »

Thank You !
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hammerandnails

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2008, 02:57:26 PM »

Wow, what a controversial subject!

I thought that we can solve this, but it is so difficult, seeing that we all don't speak the same language.

Whitout entangling myself too deep into this maze, I will say that I found the following explanation
from John Westley's explanatory notes on the Bible, on 1Th.5:23, which was my original question.


        'And may the God of peace sanctify you-By the peace he works in you, which is a great means of sanctification.
         Wholly-The word signifies wholly and perfectly; every part and all that concerns you;
         all that is of or about you.
         And may the whole of you, the spirit, and the soul, and the body-just before he said you; NOW HE DENOMINATES THEM FROM
         THE SPIRITUAL STATE.
        The spirit (Gal.6:8); wishing that it may be preserved whole and entire; then from their natural state, the soul and the body;
         THESE TWO MAKE UP THE WHOLE NATURE OF MAN, (Mat.10:28) wishing it may be preserved blameless till the coming of Christ."

         "TO EXPLAIN A LITTLE FURTHER: OF THESE THREE HERE MENTIONED, ONLY THE TWO LAT ARE THE NATURAL CONSTITUENT
          PARTS OF MAN. THE FIRST (SPIRIT) IS ADVENTITIOUS, AND THE SUPERNATURAL GIFT OF GOD, TO BE FOUND IN CHRISTIANS
          ONLY."

         "That man cannot be possibly consists of three parts, appears hence: The soul is either matter or not matter: there is no medium.
         But if is matter, it is part of the body:if not matter, it coincides with the Spirit."


      This explanation make complete sense to me, and answers my previous question of how we are different from the rest of the world.
We are different because we have received a downpayment of the Spirit of God, a seal!!
To me, on Heb.4:12, after the Spirit is given, it separates the wheat from the shaft. The old from the new. The process is hidden,
and little by little is accomplished.(Deut.7;10, Isa.28:10) the bitter water from the sweet(James3).The great Seperator will do this.
Furthermore, this explanation is congruent with Ray's teaching (as far as man, two part is concerned),and the bible.

      I must add, that as Rodger wrote in his post, that SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING must be given to us.
      I TOTALLY AGREE!!! ;D ;D ;D

God is LOVE. In order to understand Him, we must speak his language, THE LOVE LANGUAGE!
That's why (like Ray wrote, the apostles, and everybody else for that matter) did not understand Jesus.
HE was not speaking their LANGUAGE!!!
They were speaking phileo, and HE was speaking agape.
We strive to understand each other, but, we agree in some points, and we disagree in others. I always wonder why?
Because we are still mixture.
TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE, WE NEED TO SPEAK THE LANGUAGE OF GOD!!!
God is Love, therefore He speaks lovish.
Only those who speak this language can be given passage over Jordan!!

I adventure further to prove this by Scripture:

     In Judges, ch.12, we meet Jephthah, (which is a type of Jesus Christ) that was called by Gileadites to
lead them in battle against the Ammonites. They did this after they (the Gileadites) has first rejected him (see ch.11).
Jephthah accepts the challenge, and lead them in battle and won!!!

    So, we meet him here in chapter 12, after he had won, where the "man of Ephraim" (recall that the tribe of Ephraim
is from the original tribe of the children of Israel, THEREFORE THEY ARE BROTHERS), come against Jephthah and the Gileadites to
accuse them falsely.
   Jephthah rebukes them, come against them and smote them at the passage of Jordan.
   Then, he catches up with the Ephraimites that escaped, and they beg him to let them pass over Jordan.
   NOW THE TRUE TEST IS PLACED ON THEM!!!tHEY WERE ASKED TO SAY THE PASSWORD!!!!!
   ONLY THOSE WHO TRULY ARE CHOSEN KNOW THE PASSWORD, THEY HAVE THE KEYS OF THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN,
   THOSE WHO HAD BEEN TAUGHT THE LOVISH LANGUAGE!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D

HERE IT IS:


          "And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so,
           that those Ephraimites which were escaped said, LET ME GO OVER; (as many are begging Jesus to let them in)
           that the man of Gilead [the chosen] said to him, Are you an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay: (there were lying)

          "Then said they to him, [here comes the test!!! ;D] Say now SHIBBOLETH: and he said SIBBOLETH:
           FOR HE COULD NOT FRAME TO PRONOUNCE (enunciate) IT RIGHT. Then they took him, AND SLEW HIM
           AT THE PASSAGES OF JORDAN: and there fell at the time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand."
                                                                                                                        Judges12:5,6 (emphasis mine)
That's why people can say scripture, can quote scripture, can list scripture, but an H is missing!
For the unlearned, there is no difference, but for the one who speaks lovish, they can discern which is which.
That's why myself and my husband cannot understand eachother, we speak a different language!

If you go to Rev.7, the tribe of Ephraim did not make the list!!
These are the ones who wants to take it [the kindom] by violence. They can't!

Further prof that there is a language of love, is in 1Cor.13:1:

                      "Though I speak with the TONGUES (languages) of man and angels (angels only hear and speak the
                       word of God, Psa.103:20), and have not CHARITY, I am become as SOUNDIDNG BRASS, or a
                       TINKLING CYMBAL. (the one that is scratching the ears, THAT'S WHY THE ONES IN BABYLON
                       HEAP TO THEM TEACHERS, BECAUSE THEY HAVE ITCHING EARS THAT NEED SCRATCHING, AND
                       ONLY AN TINKLING CYMBAL CAN SCATCH THE EARS!!!!)

That's why we "HEARD" Ray!!!!
His voice does not SCRATCH the ears!!!
They cannot hear Ray, because they cannot understand lovish!!

Further poof:
 
                  "For with stammering lips and ANOTHER TONGUE WILL HE SPEAK to HIS PEOPLE."

Only THE CHOSEN  will understand the language of LOVE.
Only to the ones who can hear Him in the wind, in a word of a child, see Him in the clouds, in the tears of a brother,
desire Him until they are utterly consumed with HIS LOVE, when NOTHING in this world can satisfy, when you see Him in the
trees, in the flowers, in the billboards on the highway, the ones who are willing to lay everything down for Him, even the hope of salvation, the ones who don't desire anything apart from Him, that one my friends, is a CHOSEN!!!

SO, LET US LOVE EACH OTHER, THAT IS THE MOST EXELLENT WAY!!!

Shibboleth!! ;D
Ariel

       

 
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2008, 03:52:32 PM »

        'And may the God of peace sanctify you-By the peace he works in you, which is a great means of sanctification.
         Wholly-The word signifies wholly and perfectly; every part and all that concerns you;
         all that is of or about you.
         And may the whole of you, the spirit, and the soul, and the body-just before he said you; NOW HE DENOMINATES THEM FROM
         THE SPIRITUAL STATE.
        The spirit (Gal.6:8); wishing that it may be preserved whole and entire; then from their natural state, the soul and the body;
         THESE TWO MAKE UP THE WHOLE NATURE OF MAN, (Mat.10:28) wishing it may be preserved blameless till the coming of Christ."

         "TO EXPLAIN A LITTLE FURTHER: OF THESE THREE HERE MENTIONED, ONLY THE TWO LAT ARE THE NATURAL CONSTITUENT
          PARTS OF MAN. THE FIRST (SPIRIT) IS ADVENTITIOUS, AND THE SUPERNATURAL GIFT OF GOD, TO BE FOUND IN CHRISTIANS
          ONLY."

         "That man cannot be possibly consists of three parts, appears hence: The soul is either matter or not matter: there is no medium.
         But if is matter, it is part of the body:if not matter, it coincides with the Spirit."


      This explanation make complete sense to me, and answers my previous question of how we are different from the rest of the world.
We are different because we have received a downpayment of the Spirit of God, a seal!!


Hello Ariel,

One question regarding this explanation of the spirit: If 1 Thess 5:23 is referring to the Holy Spirit and not the life-giving spirit that is in all men and beasts, why would Paul pray for the Holy Spirit to be santified? Isn't it the Holy Spirit which works in sanctifying us? That is what I thought was the big difference between the Holy Spirit and the spirit of life within us: the Holy Spirit is pure and leads us into all truth.


Thanks,

Marques
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hammerandnails

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2008, 04:55:55 PM »

That is a great question!

Give me, I begg, a little time, to think how I can properly explain that.
I have some housework to do until later.

Thank you.
Your sister, Ariel
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2008, 02:47:16 AM »

Just my 2 cents, seems Gen 2:7, 6:17, 7:15, all speak of the breath of life that makes the man a living soul.

The other Scriptures speak of the (Holy) Spirit Of God; and (breath) spirit of man. Hope i am not confusing
the issue but there is a lot of sound and fury here it seems.


Genesis 2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.

Genesis 6:17:
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath
of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Genesis 7:15:
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Isaiah 42:1:
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him: he
shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles

Isaiah 48:16:
Come all of you near unto me, hear all of you this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the
time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, has sent me.

Isaiah 59:21:
As for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD; My spirit that is upon you, and my words which I
have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your seed, nor out of
the mouth of your seed's seed, says the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Ezekiel 11:24:
Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the
captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me.

Zechariah 12:1:
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, says the LORD, which stretches forth the heavens, and lays
the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.

Matthew 12:32:
And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against
the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 3:29:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Luke 3:16:
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the
latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire:

george.




« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 03:42:04 AM by aqr »
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hammerandnails

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2008, 04:51:08 PM »

Hello, Marques

I thought about the explanation that I posted, and then to your question.
Now that you ask that, I can see that John Wesley did not help me much either.

Your question made me see that that explanation did not make that much sense after all.
Did you ever had something like that happen to you? Hmm ::)

Now I am more confused than ever.
I will pray and meditate on this.
In my experience, when I cannot get a satisfactory understanding, is because:

1. The answer is deep in Jordan, and I'm not there yet, or
2. I am not ready to receive the "light" on that scripture, because the Lord has other plans.

Thank you for opening my eyes! ;D

Dear George, awesome scriptures! A lot to think about!

In His Love,
Ariel
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Spirit and Soul
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2008, 06:11:45 PM »

Hello, Marques
Your question made me see that that explanation did not make that much sense after all.
Did you ever had something like that happen to you? Hmm ::)


Oh, all the time...then I remember Ray's paper on 12 spiritual truths. That's helped me tremendously with understanding scriptures.

The thing I think can be confusing about spirit, is when you think of it 'only' as breath of life. True, that is one aspect but look at a definition from a concordance:

Spirit
Gk. pneuma
the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated


The spirit causes our body to be 'animated' or to have movement. Spirit is 'how' you move and do. Paul is not praying that 'how' you move and do be sanctified as it has no moral basis. Paul is praying that 'what' you move and do be sanctified and Paul knows that the spirit is 'how' you do this or that.

Acts 17:28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

A person is born and has life. Their spirit is only giving them life; the ability to move and do. This person chooses to 'move and do' for unlawful gain or stealing. They are using the spirit of life in them to steal. The spirit of life in them is not what causes them to sin; their carnal mind is the cause. But they are still using the means to 'move and do' for ungodliness. This is the very opposite of what Paul prays for: For us to not use the means to 'move and do' for ungodliness.

Well, as you can see, I am definitely not a teacher...but I hope this helps nonetheless. Keep searching through Ray's emails and check out his 2nd paper to Dr. Kennedy as he teaches on this subject as well.


Thanks,

Marques

« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 06:23:02 PM by mharrell08 »
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