> General Discussions
Spirit and Soul
high pulpit:
It is indeed amazing that the very essence of what we are and consist of is one of the most difficult things to grasp just like the difficulty in grasping and understanding the substance of God.
Thanks Kat and all of you for all the help as we grow in knowledge and understanding.
Other thoughts (questions):
When we die the spirit goes back to God who gave it (that's scripture) and when it's time for the next body (spiritual), God recombines them (new spiritual body and spirit, and that SAME person (soul) comes back alive. Right?
Does it mean that each spirit (that goes back to God, upon death, and that was given by God at birth) is unique to each person (in which case spirit cannot just be breath, but a definite personal program-like the electronic information on a DVD), since I don't think it is the new spiritual body that determines a person's unique personality. Or does God now invoke the personality of each unique person (which I don't think) as the soul is coming into being at the second joining between the spirit (with no personality code) and the new spiritual body?
mharrell08:
Excerpt from Ray's paper to Dr. Kennedy (http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm):
BODY
When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn. 11:38) where within a few days it begins to smell and decompose (Jn. 11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc., etc). The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is (Mat. 28:6). Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol (Jonah 2:2). Jonah was not "literally" in hell [sheol], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die. I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception inside the fish resembled his knowledge of the word "sheol."
SPIRIT
When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.
SOUL
When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep,
"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)
This is substantiated by the fact that:
"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).
Again:
" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).
Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.
The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
� souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)
� souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)
� souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)
� souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)
� souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)
� souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)
� life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)
� souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)
� souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)
� none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)
� honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)
� even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)
� souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)
� souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)
� souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)
� and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).
These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.
So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception).
Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.
FROM KING JAMES TRANSLATION:
SPIRIT
[pneuma]
is translated
LIFE in Rev. 13:5
SOUL
[nephesh]
is translated
HEART in Prov. 23:7, etc
HEART
[leb]
is translated
MIND in Prov. 21:27, I Sam. 9:20, etc.
SOUL
[nephesh]
is translated
LIFE in Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11, etc
SOUL
[nephesh]
is translated
GHOST in Job 11:2
SPIRIT
[pneuma]
is translated
GHOST in Mark 1:8
SOUL
[nephesh]
is translated
BEAST in Lev. 24:18.
BEAST
[chay]
is translated
LIFE in Lev. 18:18.
SOUL
[nephesh]
is translated
BODY in Lev. 21:11, Hag. 2:35, etc.
This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory.
The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.
Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Not one Scripture says that man is "immortal" or has an "immortal" soul. Not one. "Our Lord, Jesus Christ: the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality" (I Tim. 6:14-16).
It is by means of the "resurrection" that God causes dead people to live again. The Apostle Paul said: "Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged" (Acts 23:6). The truth regarding the "resurrection of the dead" is not even taught in Christendom today. They teach that there are no dead people (only dead bodies). They teach that people are either alive on earth, alive in Heaven, or alive in Hell. What need have we for a "resurrection of the dead" if there are no dead people to resurrect? This, my friend, is heresy!
Paul also stated: "Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection.
Please continue to read Ray's papers as well as search through Ray's emails. While there is definitely nothing wrong with asking questions, 'the honour of kings is to search out a matter' [Ps. 25:2]. Ray has covered this topic extensively as there is no need for rampant speculation.
Out of the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses is every word established as well as no scripture interprets itself. In other words, 1 scripture does not define itself and when we try to do that, it will turn into carnal speculation 100% of the time. Personally, I would think it would be better to continue to seek understanding than to entertain speculative premises with no scriptural/spiritual connotation.
Hope this helps,
Marques
ScarletWren:
ok Marquez,
Well how do you find understanding without at least trying to formulate some of your own thoughts? You can parrot back someone else's thoughts and definitions all you want but until you start to put it into your own words you really don't understand. Please don't take my tone as being accusitive or negative.
I like a lot of what you say Marquez on certain subjects, but I see no harm in trying to get to the bottom of something you struggle with and hearing the thoughts of someone else can sometimes help even if you disagree.
I still haven't heard anything concrete on what exactly one's spirit is. I read too many verses that tend to point that it is more than just the breath or something not intimately connected with 'us'. But that we have some form of life after we die until the resurrection, no, I don't think so. Paul said we are asleep in Christ, that doesn't sound like we are having a party or watching people still walking around on this earth. I like High Pulpit's thoughts.
Hope all have a blessed and peaceful weekend.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: ScarletWren on November 07, 2008, 09:07:37 AM ---ok Marquez,
Well how do you find understanding without at least trying to formulate some of your own thoughts? You can parrot back someone else's thoughts and definitions all you want but until you start to put it into your own words you really don't understand. Please don't take my tone as being accusitive or negative.
I like a lot of what you say Marquez on certain subjects, but I see no harm in trying to get to the bottom of something you struggle with and hearing the thoughts of someone else can sometimes help even if you disagree.
I still haven't heard anything concrete on what exactly one's spirit is. I read too many verses that tend to point that it is more than just the breath or something not intimately connected with 'us'. But that we have some form of life after we die until the resurrection, no, I don't think so. Paul said we are asleep in Christ, that doesn't sound like we are having a party or watching people still walking around on this earth. I like High Pulpit's thoughts.
Hope all have a blessed and peaceful weekend.
--- End quote ---
Many members here have given their thoughts as well as scriptures and excerpts from Ray's teachings regarding this subject. I stated there is nothing wrong with asking questions...the speculation however leads to a dead end.
You stated, "Why does Paul want our breath to be blameless?" Is that what the scriptures says? No, it states spirit. Did you not see my personal comments regarding this? What part are you disagreeing with? Not just with mine, but anyone's?
Are your thoughts formulated with 2 or 3 spiritual witnessess and a spiritual match? You have heard concretely what one's spirit is...you don't believe the scriptures presented and neither Ray's nor anyone else's comments. I already made a thread regarding these issues.
Marques
hammerandnails:
Dear Marques,
As I read your display of knowledge, I stand in awe!!!
What a privilege to be in the company of such brilliant minds!!!!!
However, something is missing.
I wonder what the poor brother that you replied to understood?
How about if he has a job where he works maybe 12 hours a day to support his family,
and don't have time to do all that studying that you obviously do??
It will probably take me 2 whole days to even begin to digest what you listed above.
My dear brother, I endeavour to admonish you in the spirit of love.
And since you have so much knowledge, I am convinced that you know the following scriptures:
"Though I speak with the tongues of man and of angels, and have not
CHARITY, I am become as a sounding brass, or tinkling cymbal.
"And though I have the gift of prophesy, and understand all mysteries, AND ALL KNOWLEDGE;
and though I have all faith, so I could remove mountains, and I have not
CHARITY, I am nothing.
"CHARITY suffers long, and is kind; CHARITY envies not; CHARITY VAUNTS NOT
ITSELF, is not PUFFED UP,"
But wait, where did I see this word PUFFED UP?????
Where can it be????
Oh, here it is! ::)
Silly me :-[
"Now as touching things offered to idols, we know that we all have knowledge.
KNOWLEDGE ------PUFFS UP,--------but charity edifies." 1Cor8:1
You remind me of a time when I thought that I arrived!!!
Yes I was there, and by the grace of God I made it out.
Oh, but wait, I found another scripture for you. [I love you, brother]
"In MEEKNESS instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth."
[I'm sure that you nkow where this scripture is.]
So, if I or ScarletWren are opposing ourselves, you as an older brother that you clearly are,
show us the love of Christ, and the goodness that is in you in Christ.
I have an issue with your statements that you made earlier.
Namely:
"Try not to look at more than is in there... [Where are not looking for more than is in there, we are looking at WHAT IS IN THERE].
"...because you'll wrap your mind around countless speculations"[ questions are not speculations].
Wait, didn't you write this: "...the honor of the king is to search out a matter???? ??? ??? ???
"...issues that which you'll eventually find out do not edify you in the lest" [ to labor to understand does not edify?????] :o :o
"It's a road that leads to a dead end...."[I thought that we came to this site to learn, how is that a dead end?????]
"...you may not completely understand yet......" [you assumed that we are babes] :-[ :-[
"....to falling into carnal activity." Beloved brother, THAT is the very words that does not edify. Dangerous stuff to tell a brother!!!!
And since when, since we are so stupid in the things of God, and clearly babes by your standard, is wrong to ask questions???
Is that carnal???
"Personally, I would think [ I knew a wise man that said: Wait for thought, for you are not ready for thought] it would be
better to continue to seek understanding [ that was pricelees ;) ;) ;) WE ARE SEEKING UNDERSTANDING!!!] than to entertain speculative premises with no scriptural/spiritual connotation. [Thank God you put us in our place!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D]
And since we are so ignorant and dare to formulate, hmmmm, how did you call it? "rampart speculations", we better get to work and
read again Ray's writings.
In conclusion, dear brother you clearly opposing YOURSELF with your own words.
Furthermore, you remind me of a parrot that I had named Jenny. Before she flew away, she learned the sound
of the bark of my dogs!!!Isn't that something?
You repeatedly direct us to Ray's teaching?
What are you afraid of???????
For the love of God [like my ten year old says ], do you think that the moderators of this forum
can't stand a challenge if one of us did not understand or question Ray's teachings???
If Ray is a man of God [I'm sure he is] and a wonderful teacher [clearly] and full of God's wisdom [nobody can convince me otherwise],
along with all the moderators [which have studied his work and the word for a long time] we [in our folly] are no surprise to them.
Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe we are only in the beginning, and we have been starved for a long time, and by coming here hungry for the truth, also bring our churchite baggage with us, we looking to you to [IN LOVE] [is it there another right way???] to direct us as little disciples???
Or, did you stop to think [between those blows with the bible over our heads], that maybe this brother that dare to , how did you say it?
"speculate", does not have all the time in the world to read as he would like to??
If you are here for a long time [which I see you are], did you ask yourself what image you portray to us that just got here looking for the love, direction, mercy, patience and the such??
If this people are all like you [which there are not] then I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE!!!!!
Now, beloved brother, I lift you to the Lord, and I pray for you.
I've been where you are.
I've done the same thing!!!!
I thought that if I teach doctors the latest in emergency medicine, and they looked at me with a dropped jaw, for the knowledge that I possess, I have arrived!!!!
Let the one that thinks he is wise become a fool, that he might be wise.
God made a fool out of me!!!
BLESSED BE HIS HOLY NAME FOREVER!!!!
I beseech you to ponder on your ways!!!
I would conclude with this [for the last time, I promise].
I hope I did not offend you because "a brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city"
I will admonish you to think on this proverb:
"Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate you:
rebuke a WISE man and he will LOVE you." Prov.9:8
I love you
Ariel
P.S. I am studying the issue of spirit, soul and body. We will get to the bottom of this.
Don't be afraid to make mistakes.
The truth will stand no matter what we say or think.
Dare to be who you really are and these people in this forum [if they have God's love] they will still love you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Love you more,
Ariel
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version