Finished or not finished?

[love_magnified]

Hi Ray just finished reading praying by Gods rules and must say that it is one of the best papers on prayer I have read. I must admit to being a little confused Ray by the two statements below. I would appreciate it if you could throw some light on my question. if the sins of the whole world are already forgiven which I believe they are, why are we to ask for something God has already given us? or does this just mean that we are to forgive others as God has already forgiven us. If God has already forgiven us because of Jesus and the cross, how can we only be forgiven if we forgive others?

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour, who will have all men to be saved. ( 1 Tim 2:3-4)

Your comment, was this, Jesus died for the sins of the world. That part of the commission is finished ("It is finished" Jn 19:30). The sins of the whole world are already forgiven. ( Taken from part 5 of the Lake of Fire series).

as opposed to..

"And forgive us our debts [sins] as we forgive our debtors…"

We will be forgiven our sins ONLY if we forgive those who sin against us. We really need to give this some thought. We cannot bless God while cursing our enemy or our fellow man, and expect God to bless us (James 3:9). ( Taken from Praying by Gods rules.)

Thanks Ray

Yours in Christ Ray (UK)



Dear Ray: Boy, I can't get away with anything--my readers are too sharp. Okay, let me see me get myself out of this one:

FIRST: It is the "SUM" of God's Word that is Truth: "The SUM of Your word is truth...." (Psalm 119:160).

SECOND: "Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD."

THIRD: "It is FINISHED" (John 19:30).

FOURTH: "...even God, Who quickens the dead and calls those things which BE NOT as though THEY WERE" (Rom. 4:17).

Likewise, Jesus knew that He HAD to die for the sins of the world, and yet, HE PRAYED FOR IT.

Understanding the Sovereignty of God under any, every, and all circumstances is one of the hardest things for the human mind to wrap around. God has a plan, a PURPOSE. He knows that plan and purpose from beginning to end, and nothing will change one iota of it. Yet, there are billions and billions of things that must take place in order for that plan to be accomplished. Everything in the universe that happens, is part of the fulfilling of that plan. Yes, if you do not forgive others of their sins, GOD WILL NOT FORGIVE YOUR SINS. But... BUT, God already has purposed that you (eventually) WILL FORGIVE OTHERS. You cannot under any circumstances escape the Sovereign Will of God.

Paul told those on his ship sailing to Rome, that if any remained not on the ship they could NOT be saved. Yet an angel already told Paul that everyone WOULD be saved. (Acts 27:31). Answer? God saw to it that everyone DID remain on the ship.

Remember that God has "ways and means" to accomplish all of His desires, and there is no way that His plan can be thwarted in any way. God only allows for it to "appear" as though it is being thwarted from time to time, which allows for men to then think that they have "free will," which of course, they do not.

God be with you,

-----------------

This is a very interesting topic and I think much of what we understand about the plan of God can be understood by a key revelation into how God speaks to man as Ray mentioned:

Romans 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

It is finished. And it is also being worked out over the dispensation of the fullness of time. As the scripture says: Christ died for all, so all died. We are the firstfruits of that death as the likeness of the cross is within us (Romans 6). All things have been subdued to Christ and death has been defeated and destroyed, YET, the end will come when all things are subdued to Christ's kingdom and the last enemy destroyed will be death. What is your take?

[lilitalienboi16]

This is like one of those mindboggling things, my weak spirit cannot grasp this right now..

Its mind baffling to me because we are so limited in our understanding by the physical and natural world around us we can't even begin to percieve paradise, heaven, the afterlife basicaly where we reign with HIm, i mean The end before the begining, its like a mind boggler.

How can you declare teh END before it BEGAN? Yet God can do all so this makes perfect sence, but ot my natural mind and my weak spirit i don't have the strenght to evne meditate on it, my head would explode.

This goes for this also, God forgiven the WORLD of there sins, yet we can only be forgiven if we forgive others. Again its like Declaring the END before the begining, infact i think thats exactly what it is..

My head hurts...... lol

[love_magnified]

I don't consider it mindboggling. It's like this assuming God was like us: God will pick up that pencil in an hour. So what does he say? I have picked up that pencil. The reason he talks like that is to declare his supremacy. He talks as though it has already been done, for once his purpose is declared, who can stand against it?

[Becky]

in a sense it already has been done because he knows what will happen... every knee shall bow ..... that hasn't happened yet but God has willed it to....

[Craig]

I don't know if any of you here have ever been a chess player.  I was pretty good in my younger days.  

A good chess player can look ahead several moves.  There were times when I played people and they would make a move and I could tell you the game was over at that point.  We still maybe had to continue the game for 6 or 7 moves, and the other player may not have known that I had already won, but there was no doubt of the result, at that point the game was over.

This is how I see God.  When Christ died it was finished, we may be continueing the game, but for all intent and purpose the game is already over.

Blessings!

Craig

[Becky]

yeah nice!

[love_magnified]

Basically, it was finished at the cross, and the cross is being worked in us and through us until the last enemy destroyed is death.

[Gill]

Great thread   .

God created the day, the night to be for signs and seasons and for days and years ...and yet to Him, one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.

I think time is ours to experience from our perspective, for His purposes.  And yet He's so intricately involved in it all.  Knowing each sparrow that falls and each hair that we lose ...

I feel so small  :lol:

[Steve Crook]

"It is finished", means just that to me. I believe the exact process is being played out or will be played out in all mankind by the "end" of it all.

It's like when I plan a trip. Example:

"I am going to London for a vacation in August." So, if I were our Father, whos Will, will be done and not come back void, then the hotel, plane, food and entertainment expenses are all just details, if this would have been him saying that.

The trip will happen. Now, I'll just make the actual details available to my family and friends, etc.

When you plan something out, say "going to college", "your next meal", "your plans for the evening", once you decide on something...the rest of it is WHAT you do to get it done, but the fact that you have had to decide what to do in the first place is already done BEFORE the details.

With our Father, He knows what His plan is, and stated the results to us before the actions. Well, he states it all at once, but in a order that we operate with in our own minds.

Break down how you decide to do something, anything, and think about what steps you take in order to bring that thought to fruition. It always starts with what you are going to do, FIRST, then the details of working it out start falling in place, then the result happens that you had decided on from the beginning.

I hope I don't sound too stupid today. Haha, sometimes my thoughts are right on in my head, but typing them is a little different.....and I work in the technology field with computers all day, lol...

God Bless

[gmik]

You have been discussing the end from the beginning....Are there any ideas about God forgiving everyone-the whole world.....but then saying I won't forgive you if you don't forgive...Ray gave it a good shot and I know that scriptures in their sum and totality give truth, but I must admit I am not sure how these 2 scriptures work together.....

[chrissiela]

You have been discussing the end from the beginning....Are there any ideas about God forgiving everyone-the whole world.....but then saying I won't forgive you if you don't forgive...Ray gave it a good shot and I know that scriptures in their sum and totality give truth, but I must admit I am not sure how these 2 scriptures work together.....

I think that it has to do with judgment... just as in "judge not lest ye be judged"....

Mat 18:27  Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him,

and forgave him the debt.

Mat 18:28  But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

Mat 18:29  And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

Mat 18:30  And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

Mat 18:31  So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

Mat 18:32  Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

Mat 18:33  Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

Mat 18:34  And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Mat 18:35  So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/list:u]

And here again:

Mat 5:25  Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him;

lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Mat 5:26  Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.[/list:u]

So it's not that we won't be forgive EVER... but when and how.

Chrissie

[Daniel]

The "Tormentors PART" is really fascinating  :lol:

Daniel

[Brett]

Hello,

I like what Ray Smith said:


Paul told those on his ship sailing to Rome, that if any remained not on the ship they could NOT be saved. Yet an angel already told Paul that everyone WOULD be saved. (Acts 27:31). Answer? God saw to it that everyone DID remain on the ship.


Okay, as you see bolds and underline are mine. I am interesting to find if anywhere in verse like angel told Paul that everyone would be saved, do you know where you know where the verse is?

Thanks!

[chrissiela]

here Brett:

Act 27:22  And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for

there shall be NO LOSS of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

Act 27:23  For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

Act 27:24  Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee ALL them that sail with thee.

Act 27:25  Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.[/list:u]

Chrissie

[knuckle]

Hi all---------

   I tend to look at it like this-----During the pass over in egypt salvation was provided through the blood of a lamb.We stand in the hour before the passover.The lamb has been sacraficed and all the power to thwart death is in our hand all we have to do is apply the blood to the door jamb.The Lamb's job is finished but the blood's job is not,not until the night is passed and the new day has dawned.

[Indagator]

I don't know if any of you here have ever been a chess player.  I was pretty good in my younger days.  

A good chess player can look ahead several moves.  There were times when I played people and they would make a move and I could tell you the game was over at that point.  We still maybe had to continue the game for 6 or 7 moves, and the other player may not have known that I had already won, but there was no doubt of the result, at that point the game was over.

This is how I see God.  When Christ died it was finished, we may be continueing the game, but for all intent and purpose the game is already over.

Blessings!

Craig

That's somewhat how I see it actually.  When playing chess, I tend to be defensive.  That is to check and make sure that anything that could happen would be known to me whether it's according to paths that my opponent could take, and/or how moves I would make could alter their moves.  After checking my own defense to be sure that all is in control, I can then think about offense.

God is our defender...

2Ki 19:34  For I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

2Ki 20:6  And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.  (The spirit has yet to reveal to me the whole meaning of this verse, but I feel it is applicable as of yet.  I would love to have input on this.  The same words are repeated here)

Psa 59:1  <To the chief Musician, Altaschith, Michtam of David; when Saul sent, and they watched the house to kill him.> Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me.(my "enemies" are made of sin, and temptation to stray from the path, not people.  People are just like me. Heh, really I could say that "people" are better than me. Nobody said it would be easy)

Psa 82:3  Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. (be as one that follows Christ.  The "poor" and "Fatherless" are also "prostitutes" and "publicans")

There is more that I would add now, but I just found something so I have to cut this short there.  Oddly enough it was after searching "defend" in e-sword.  I'm thinking it may be important, and I hope that it is.

I also found something in Zec 12:7 while looking around about the Lord preserving the "tents of Judah" first. Check it out.

Lord help me understand.

[Brett]

here Brett:

Act 27:22  And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for

there shall be NO LOSS of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

Act 27:23  For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

Act 27:24  Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee ALL them that sail with thee.

Act 27:25  Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.[/list:u]

Chrissie

Thanks Chrissie.  O:)

[lilitalienboi16]

I don't know if any of you here have ever been a chess player.  I was pretty good in my younger days.  

A good chess player can look ahead several moves.  There were times when I played people and they would make a move and I could tell you the game was over at that point.  We still maybe had to continue the game for 6 or 7 moves, and the other player may not have known that I had already won, but there was no doubt of the result, at that point the game was over.

This is how I see God.  When Christ died it was finished, we may be continueing the game, but for all intent and purpose the game is already over.

Blessings!

Craig

That's somewhat how I see it actually.  When playing chess, I tend to be defensive.  That is to check and make sure that anything that could happen would be known to me whether it's according to paths that my opponent could take, and/or how moves I would make could alter their moves.  After checking my own defense to be sure that all is in control, I can then think about offense.

God is our defender...

2Ki 19:34  For I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

2Ki 20:6  And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.  (The spirit has yet to reveal to me the whole meaning of this verse, but I feel it is applicable as of yet.  I would love to have input on this.  The same words are repeated here)


Lord help me understand.

I believe what is applicable in the spiritual reality is that King David, represents the elect and God the Father or Jesus Christ will defend the holy city Jeresulem the heavenly one that is, spoken of in Revalation, for His servents. He will defend them and protect the Called, Chosen, faithul and overcomers. Or it can be applied to Christ, God will defend Christ, His word and His Holy City where He resides this being, Heaven as im aware of it.

I could be wrong offcourse however that is how i see it, but i have not mediated nor done any thinking on this topic.

[hillsbororiver]

I thought this thread could use another go around, some good stuff here, any comments?

Joe

[Robin]

I think this surely ties in with the topic of relative vs. absolute that has been discussed recently.

From our perspective God is telling us to forgive and we will be forgiven. From God's perspective we will forgive because he is faithful to finish the work he started in us.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: