Holy Spirit - whom or which?

[eggi]

Hi all,

Just noticed something today. In modern translations they tend to translate references to the Holy Spirit as if the Holy Spirit was a person. An example:

You know that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God, don't you? You do not belong to yourselves, (1st Corinthians 6:19 International Standard Version 2008)

Others have it this way:

Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own, (Young's Literal Translation)

Interesting to see how a doctrine can "color" the wording. I would think that the Greek says "which" and not "whom", but I haven't had the opportunity to verify this. Did anyone of you take a closer look at this?

God bless you,
Eirik

[Jackie Lee]

Isn't the Holy Spirit the spirit of God or the breath of God?
Most will argue Holy Spirit is the 3 person of trinity, I have no idea how they see it that way.
Feel free to correct me.

[eggi]

Of course it is!

I just pointed out that they use "who" and not "which". "Who" refers to PERSONS, and "which" to NON-PERSONS. There it is!

God bless you,
Eirik

[Jackie Lee]

OOPS.. sorry I saw you speak of Holy Spirit and got a little to excited. 

[mharrell08]

Isn't the Holy Spirit the spirit of God or the breath of God?
Most will argue Holy Spirit is the 3 person of trinity, I have no idea how they see it that way.
Feel free to correct me.

Excerpt from 'Is God a closed Trinity or an Open Family' (http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html):

WHO, OR WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT?

Jesus told His disciples in John 16:7:

"It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will SEND HIM unto you."

Is this "comforter" the third God of a trinity? Let us see Who this Comforter really is! Didn't you ever wonder why this Comforter could not come until Christ departed? The comforter does not come until Christ departs to the Father, because the comforter IS THE SON returning in the form of "spirit," "holy spirit." Jesus is saying to him,

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

"Now, whenever the consoler [comforter] which I shall be sending you from the Father..."

Notice that Christ sends the comforter from the Father and what Jesus instructs. And notice that it does not involve a third person of a fabled trinity:

"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit of truth [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--it will be guiding you in to all the truth, for it will NOT be speaking from itself [it is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever it should be hearing [from Whom sent it] will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you. That will be glorifying ME, seeing that of MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is MINE. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE IS IT GETTING, AND WILL BE INFORMING YOU." (John 16:13-15).

This is not hard to understand. The spirit of Truth is Christ. The comforter is Christ. The spirit will be speaking TO the disciples THROUGH Christ's spirit which is His because the Father gave this spirit TO HIM! There's no trinity here.

Jesus said:

"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).

Now notice how clear Jesus makes this. Who or What is this spirit, holy spirit, holy ghost, spirit of truth, comforter? Is it really the third person of a triune God? Let Jesus Himself answer:

"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).

"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).

"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).

JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER. THE GREEK PROVES THAT CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!

In the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:

"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."

In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don't they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"

HERE IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE "PARAKLEETOS!"

Isn't is just amazing what we can learn when we just read and truth of God's Word instead of the strange and unscriptural teaching of theologians?

No, God is not a trinity. Yes, God is a family. We can be members (Sons) of His Family, Brothers with Christ. What a marvelous plan God is bring about. Here then is the Gospel to all nations and all peoples everywhere:

"For since, in fact, through a man [Adam] came death, through a Man [Jesus Christ], also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, THUS ALSO, in Christ, shall ALL be vivified [given immortal life]. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to HIS GOD AND FATHER, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power... The last enemy is being abolished: DEATH... then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:21-28).


Thanks,

Marques

[daywalker]

Hi all,

Just noticed something today. In modern translations they tend to translate references to the Holy Spirit as if the Holy Spirit was a person. An example:

You know that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God, don't you? You do not belong to yourselves, (1st Corinthians 6:19 International Standard Version 2008)

Others have it this way:

Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own, (Young's Literal Translation)

Interesting to see how a doctrine can "color" the wording. I would think that the Greek says "which" and not "whom", but I haven't had the opportunity to verify this. Did anyone of you take a closer look at this?

God bless you,
Eirik

Hey Eirik,

When looking up Hebrew/Greek words & meanings, I like to use this website which uses Strong's Concordance, along with alternative options:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

I also use e-sword which you can google and download for FREE !! Just a little fyi I thought you might like...


The King James Version reads this verse (1 Cor 6:19) as:
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

First thing, notice the "which is" in parenthesis, that obviously means that it as ADDED. Verse copied from website. Book will have it in italics. Not exactly wrong in this case, but not necessary either. "the Holy Ghost in you" would have been fine.

WHICH in this verse, comes from the Greek hos, and according to the website {using Strong's} can mean: who, which, what, that

In the KJV "hos" is translated:
"which" 418 times, "whom" 270 times, "that" 139 times, "who" 87 times, "whose" 52 times, "what" 40 times, etc...

So it would appear that yes it can also mean "whom". BUT, in each case, it requires honest interpreting to determine whether or not it should be. In regards to the Holy Spirit (Ghost), honest and accurate study of Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is not a "person", but rather the spirit OF God (and Jesus) and therefore should not be referred to as a He or Who or Whom.

Hope that helps your study a little,

- Christopher

[judith collier]

Yes, I see what you are saying  but then the Holy Spirit would actually be an IT, rightly so? The Spirit is of God the Father and of Jesus. And then pray in  Spirit and Truth? I can also see how Spirit takes on a life of it's own. The Spirit prays for us when we do not know what to pray, IT groans within us? very confusing still!

[Kat]

Here is another excerpt from 'Is God a closed Trinity or an Open Family,' this should help in this discussion as this article has much about what the Holy Spirit is.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ---------

The holy spirit is something that God the Father possesses--it is not a separate, third god or deity of some fabled trinity. The spirit "of" God is "God's" spirit. And notice that God offers His spirit as a gift to those who ask:

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)

The holy spirit is not an entity of its own, but is rather a possession of God which He gives to us.

And notice that even the King James Version in this verse uses the word Spirit instead of Ghost as they normally do in translating the same identical Greek word pneuma.

We read in the latter chapters of John's gospel just how intimate and loving and close Jesus is with His Father and His Father with Him. This is emphasized over and over again dozens of times in the Scriptures. However, there is NO SUCH INTIMACY mentioned between the holy ghost [spirit] and the Father or with Jesus Christ. The reason is clear. The holy spirit of God is not a deity or god with a personal relationship with the Father or Christ, but is rather THEIR spirit. We will show from Scripture that both the Father and His Son have, and posses "holy spirit," and that They BOTH impart that same spirit to US! And that is how they BOTH dwell with us and in us and make their abode with us (John 14:23).
-----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[eggi]

Hi all, thank you for your responses,

I might be wrong on this one since I'm not a native English speaker, but doesn't WHO always refer to persons? WHICH refers to NON-PERSONS right?
I thought that this might be yet another way to disprove the idea that the Holy Spirit is a person. Perhaps I was wrong. 

God bless you,
Eirik

[judith collier]

Yes, I see that the Holy Spirit is not a person in his own right and I always had trouble with this. I didn't consider myself a scholar and never took up a debate but rather told myself I will leave that to God. But we were taught to pray TO the Holy Spirit and that confused me. Now I can ask the Spirit of our Lord and Fatherto help me pray. Thanks

[Kat]

Just found this email and thought it might help in this discussion.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3514.0.html ---

Jesus is the Personification of the Holy Spirit (His SPIRIT FATHER living IN Him). Therefore, the Person Jesus is the "He and the Him," not the Spirit of God in Him. God the Father OWNS, if you will, His OWN Spirit. It belongs TO Him. IT is HIS. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT OWN GOD THE FATHER. Can you see and understand that? God HAS a spirit. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT HAVE A GOD, therefore, it is an IT, and not a HE or a HIM.
-------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Vangie]

Looks like you're right on Eirik - it's an IT--so "which" would be the more appropriate word.  I agree that "whom" does seem to confuse the matter.

Sincerely,
Vangie

[Ninny]

You know Eirik, most of the people wouldn't even think of that. People here (in the U.S.) who speak English as their only language or first language don't always stop to think of the usage of the word!  They just say what is more comfortable!  Most people think the Holy Spirit is a person anyway, so those things don't even enter their mind! Now when you refer to the H.S. as an IT they might have something to say about it!

  Some of us are kind of sloppy with our English usage! (I am included in the sloppy usage people! I do try to use words correctly when it would really alter the meaning of what I want to say! )  We do interchange those words like: which, who, that,  lie, lay, me and I! Really, people say things like, "He gave it to you and I"  "I will lay down for awhile." So people don't really care how a word is used so much, that's how we got into this shape in the first place, just trusting that the translators knew all the right words!
I am so glad that Ray showed us that words DO count!
Thanks for bringing that up!
Kathy

[judith collier]

Another thought (someone told me once that I would be better off if I didn't think)(chuckle) Anyway, some Christians talk of the Trinity as God manifesting Himself in 3 distinct ways. Well, let me tell you, do not tell most theologians this as they have a slight fit. I know the Catholic Church does! They hold to 3 distinct Persons.

[Dave in Tenn]

Step One:  Replace simple truth with complicated error.

Step Two:  Attempt to correct error with different error.

Step Three:  Kill and cast into Hell those who don't believe the 'right' error.

Step Four:  Marginalize, misunderstand, or persecute those with simple Truth.

[daywalker]

Hi all,

Just noticed something today. In modern translations they tend to translate references to the Holy Spirit as if the Holy Spirit was a person. An example:

You know that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God, don't you? You do not belong to yourselves, (1st Corinthians 6:19 International Standard Version 2008)

Others have it this way:

Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own, (Young's Literal Translation)

Interesting to see how a doctrine can "color" the wording. I would think that the Greek says "which" and not "whom", but I haven't had the opportunity to verify this. Did anyone of you take a closer look at this?

God bless you,
Eirik

Hello Again,

I think the opening segment from Ray's paper on the Trinity sums it up. The rest is just detail:

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html:

The popular hymn goes:

"Holy Holy Holy, Lord God Al-mighty, God in three per-sons, Bless-ed trin-i-ty"

"God is a TRINITY" we have been told by the world's leading theologians. That is, "God" is composed of THREE PERSONS. They are:

   1.      God the Father
   2.      The Holy Ghost [Spirit]
   3.      Christ Jesus the Son of God.

With just the above statement (which is accurate according to Christian teaching) we already have several unscriptural problems!

Learn something important and profound: Whenever someone tries to teach you a doctrine that is UNscriptural, he will always be forced to use words that are unscriptural.

    *      First of all, nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to or called a "trinity."
    *      Second, the word "three" is never used in reference to Who or What God is.
    *      Third, God is never called or referred to as "a person."
    *      Four, the holy spirit is never called "God."
    *      Five, since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with His Father. Christ plainly said:

    "My Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

The holy spirit is never called God, God is never referred to as a trinity or a person or consisting of three, and Christ is the Son of the Father, YET this mysterious doctrine is believed by millions. Why?

And as we all know "God is Spirit" - John 4:24 **and NOT 'a' Spirit, but 'SPIRIT'.

Over & Out,

- Daywalker