Quote from: lovepeace
BUT...i have always believed that God has a say in what we do. as in, He KNEW that the little boy was going to be pushed, He KNEW that i was going to go on this website, etc etc...i can go on forever. BUT if God knew that these things were going to happen, why did He let it? WHY would He want that boy to be hurt?
I want to continue with the question from lovepeace that Patrick gave an email to answer. Here is an excerpt from 'The Myth of ‘Free Will’ Exposed' part 15-c.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html --------------------------------------
Jesus Christ is “spirit”: “Now the Lord is that SPIRIT…” (II Cor. 3:17). Make no mistake about it; Jesus Christ is present at every crime scene that ever was or will be.
Jesus is at the scene of every crime in the world, and He is there before the crime actually happens. What would Jesus say to a woman if she were in the presence of some slimeball who is hell-bent on raping her little daughter? We know that Jesus is there, but what if Jesus manifested Himself right there, at the scene? What would Jesus say when the woman would beg Him to stop this slimeball from raping or murdering her daughter?
Surely He would stop the crime, right? Well if that be the case, how come there are so many rapes and murders that have not been prevented by Jesus? Do not all parents (almost all) pray for the safety of their children? So the pat Christian answer is: “Well, we don’t know why, but God allowed it.” God no more allows crimes that harm one or two individuals than he allows tsunamies that harm and hundreds of thousands.
I am well aware of the fact that Jesus does at times intervene and stop some crime or evil from taking place. I am now referring to those times when He does not intervene and stop the crime. Why does He “allow” it?
You say, “Well, nobody knows the answer to that!” Oh but we do know the answer. The Scriptures give us the answer. We don’t want the Scriptural answer. We don’t want the truth. We can’t handle the truth. And woe to the messenger who delivers the truth!
And just what do we think we gain by using the catch phrase: “God allowed it?” Does that phrase get God off the hook of responsibility and place the responsibility upon His mal-functioning inventions? Does the word “allow” carry the connotation: “I had nothing to do with it?” “My hands are clean?” “It’s not my job to prevent evil crimes?” Is this what the word “allow” really means?
The American Heritage College Dictionary:
“ allow v. –lowed, -lowing, -lows. 1. To LET do or happen; PERMIT.”
“permit v. –mitted, -mitting, -mits. 1. To ALLOW the doing of; CONSENT. 2. To GRANT. 3. To AFFORD OPPORTUNITY.
Now then, do we feel better about this theological heresy and nonsense by using the word “allow”? If a Police Officer were to, LET HAPPEN, PERMIT, CONSENT, GRANT, and AFFORD OPPORTUNITY for a horrible crime to take place without lifting a finger to stop it, would he be morally guiltless for “allowing” it to happen? Does the catch phrase “allow” with all of its definitions somehow make void the responsibility of the Police Officer? Is God Almighty less capable and less responsible than even a carnal-minded Police Officer?
Why then do theologians invent their own solution to the problem by applying the unscriptural word “allow” to the acts of God, rather than to accept the plain truth of Scripture concerning these matters? Well, for the exact same reason they invent the unscriptural phrase “free-will” to get God off of the hook of responsibility for the evils in God’s Own creation! They don’t want the truth; they can’t handle the truth; the truth would convict their own evil and carnal-minded hearts, and they would be forced to humble themselves and repent!
Could any of us honestly say with respect to our presence at an imminent crime, that if we: “allowed, let happen, permitted to happen, consented to its happening, granted it to happen, and afforded it the opportunity to happen,” then our hands are clean? We have no involvement in the crime? We had no obligations, and we are not to be held accountable and responsible?
You know that I speak the truth, but many of you can’t handle the truth.
So am I saying that since God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will, that all of the crimes of the world are a part of God’s plan? No, that is not my teaching. But this is precisely what the Scriptures say! This is not some perverted theory. I read it in the Bible—in hundreds and hundreds of places!
I have no problem in justifying God in all of His doings, even though I personally am overwhelmed at times over the magnitude of pain and evil that God has subjected us to. It is humbling! It surely does produce God’s desired purpose, and I can personally attest to this fact. Inventing an unscriptural and anti-scriptural term like "human free will" or "free choice" does not remove the consequences of evil from God's shoulders.
GOD THE CREATOR OF EVIL
“That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I made peace [good], and create evil: I the Lord do all these things” (Isa. 45:6-7).
Notice that God did not create light to shine IN the darkness. No, God “created” darkness, itself. Darkness is not just the absence of light. Darkness was created by God. It does not “naturally” exist independent of His creating it. This, like everything else in the Bible, is a parable. Mankind is spiritually in “darkness.” And it is a very painful thing to come out.
“For God, Who commanded the light to shine out of darkness [not ‘in’ darkness], has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.” (II Cor. 4:6).
Before we go further, it is necessary for those who have never seen it proven, that it is God Who is the Creator, User, and unltimately, the Destroyer of evil.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is such a hard concept but something I think all believers need to really understand. God has made this world exactly as it is and to say anything is happening contrary to His will, means that He is not sovereign. Quote from above, "God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will."
The human race is right now in the very beginning, at the very start of being formed into the image of God. We have been brought into being in this fleshly carnal form, "in spiritual darkness" first. We are experiencing and going through the very painful ordeal of knowing evil. This is the backdrop we all need before we can move on to further development. This is what this present age and most of the next age is for, only a very few are chosen out to move on to further development now and only after experiencing their share of evil first. But God has not just cast us into this "evil experience" to let us suffer without parameters, no. He made us as we are and has set the parameters of what we can feel and even what we understand as pain you see and there is just so much He will let anyone suffer, because we will die. And this life is not only about suffering, God has mercy on us, so we get to experience good too.
Here is an analogy. If say I have a child with some kind of physical defect, and so I find out about a medical procedure that will correct it. Knowing that the procedure will be painful and difficult, I still make all the arrangments, take my child there and set by and wait while it is going on. My child might not even wanted to do this, they didn't bring it on themselves and I didn't just allow it to happen, I brought it about, I made it happen, knowing that the out come was going to be worth it.
All this suffering and evil is so we will 'know' what it is by personal experience. That is the best way we can understand it, as the backdrop, so then we can be taught righteousness.
Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
v. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
v. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
v. 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Author
Topic: free will and God? (Read 8271 times)