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A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
Beloved:
Hi Judy,
I'm not sure if Ray has covered this issue or not.... I haven't read all of what he has written yet. I personally have read many scriptures that would indicate that our reward will be proportionate to our work . Here are a few, Matt 16:27 , 1 Cor 3:8 , Rev 22:12 . I hope these help.
Harry
Okay Harry I hope this stimulates you but I am not sure that the scriptures actually support this idea you posted, You cited three verse but you have to read the words and also finish the sentances
The first quote Mat 16;27
(Mat 16:24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me[/color].
then he tells us about those who do not do this during this life
(Mat 16:25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
(Mat 16:26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
(Mat 16:27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
G591 ἀποδίδωμι apodidōmi Thayer Definition:1) to deliver, to give away for one’s own profit what is one’s own, to sell 2) to pay off, discharge what is due 2a) a debt, wages, tribute, taxes, produce due 2b) things promised under oath 2c) conjugal duty 2d) to render account 3) to give back, restore 4) to requite, recompense in a good or a bad sense
This is word underlined is used 51 times and in most this is not always a positive thing and I do not think it is here either. look at the following use , the same wording
(2Ti 4:14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
The next verse you sited 1 C0 3:8
(1Co 3:7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
(1Co 3:8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
(1Co 3:9) For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Can you see harry that we are not doing anything that God is not orchestrating and it is all His doing ...next line
(1Co 3:10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(1Co 3:11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
We are more like children helping their father fix their car.
Your third quote was Rev 22;12 , you have to look who it talking to. See the line above
(Rev 22:11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
there is a conjunction here
(Rev 22:12) AND, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
μισθός misthos Thayer Definition: 1) dues paid for work 1a) wages, hire
2) reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours
2a) in both senses, rewards and punishments 2b) of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours 2c) of punishments
But I am wondering why people are so enamoured with being always being rewarded
If God is soverign and working in us, even the good things that we do are not of ourselves but of Him.....it all still points back to Him
Look what Jesus himself said
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the work
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.[/b]
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This is how our good works are manifested
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Even before the man believed
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
OUR WORKS ARE ALL NOTHING
act 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;).
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
I especially like this couplet
(2Ti 3:16) All Scripture [is] God-breathed and [is] beneficial for teaching [or, doctrine], for verification [or, reproof], for correcting faults, for instruction in righteousness [or, the behavior that God requires],
(2Ti 3:17) that the man of God may be fitted--for every good work having been completed.
His elect are being fitted....nothing special about them. God always looks for a small group to show His Glory to the world.
No Harry I do not see anyone who is going to feel worthy of a reward then , other than His Beloved Son
Here is our position
(Luk 18:13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
(Luk 18:14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Beloved
Dave in Tenn:
Amen and thanks, Rodger and Beloved. I never want to lose sight of the Truth that all is about HIS purpose. For me, I reckon if there is STILL 'envy' in 'heaven' then His purpose is not yet fulfilled.
indianabob:
Harry & Judy,
It has been my understanding for several years that our reward in the Kingdom of God, if it is based on our work or our accomplishments, will just be more work. Work and responsibility for which we have been trained and are now suited to perform for the benefit of others. The main difference is that we will no longer be flesh and will be "spirit" and will never tire of "well doing" and never again need reassurance of pleasing God and our Lord, BECAUSE we will have perfect love for God and perfect trust in His love for us. WE will in effect have laid down our life for our brethren and will be eager to seek God's will in our lives continually. We will only wear a crown in order to identify us to those needing our help and support and fellowship.
The crown that God will give to each one of us will certainly be a badge of honor, but we must always keep in mind that the honor is entirely due to our God and our saviour Jesus for their work in us and not for any particular effort of our own. When a beautiful work of art such as a painting or a unique vase is awarded first prize, the badge of honor goes to the creator and not to the work of art. Of course the work of art wears the badge of honor, the crown, but the HONOR belongs always to the Creator of the art.
God is creating in us the character of His only begotten son Jesus the Christ; that is our reward.
Bob
--- Quote from: Harry on February 07, 2009, 01:14:23 PM ---
Hi Judy,
I'm not sure if Ray has covered this issue or not.... I haven't read all of what he has written yet. I personally have read many scriptures that would indicate that our reward will be proportionate to our work . Here are a few, Matt 16:27 , 1 Cor 3:8 , Rev 22:12 . I hope these help.
Harry
--- End quote ---
Beloved:
Yes Bob even the crowns will be relinquished to Our Mighty Father and Lord Jesus Christ
(Rev 4:10) fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
(Rev 4:11) `Worthy art Thou, O Lord, to receive the glory, and the honour, and the power, because Thou--Thou didst create the all things, and because of Thy will are they, and they were created.'
beloved
Harry:
Thanx everyone, for clearing things up in that area......I see what you are saying and agree completely. It makes me feel much better knowing it is not dependent upon my weak and vacillating efforts to do God's will....and in fact it helps me to enter that rest of knowing He is doing with me exactly as he wills for me and I don't need to worry about anything....now, if I can just never forget it :-).
Harry
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