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Understanding your position…
Ninny:
You know the truth is we don't really know what happened to Jesus and how he learned things. We can know that God set the limits of each phase of his life because that's how God operates! some things are just mysteries to us until God reveals it to us. I don't even question how he learned things because God was in control of what Jesus couldn't control as a child, I KNOW he was carefully guarded as a child and until he began his ministry we don't know anything at all. To me that is one of those wonderful mysteries that we will know someday! There are just some things that we don't need to know yet! it's kind of like when your 4 year old comes up and asks you, "Where do babies come from?" He doesn't need to know the WHOLE story until he is mature enough to understand it. Now that's just the way I see it, no big philosophical idea just my perspective.
Don't you think Jesus learned much the same way we do? By living his life daily for 30 years besides what God may have revealed in and to him. We live, we learn. Jesus had to experience some of that in order to be human enough to understand what our life was like. Maybe this is not right, but it's the way I see it!
Kathy
Beloved:
Kathy I think Rodger did an excellent post to show how Jesus learned and lived
--- Quote from: Falconn003 on February 14, 2009, 07:36:33 AM ---
--- Quote ---I agree that the Spiritual Knowledge was revealed to Him.
But he also was also taught.
Hebrews5
8 even He also, being a Son, learned obedience from that which He suffered.
This is why i talked about His learning time to become strong in spirit
Luke2
52 And Jesus progressed in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
40 Now the little Boy grows up and was staunch in spirit, being filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on Him.
--- End quote ---
What i am stating is let us be careful applying common false practises of the dead church, like applying lesser human nature to God and Jesus. Everything Jesus gained as KNOWLEDGE is in a REVELATION God gave Jesus.
Should Jesus need a teacher undoubtedly it would have been the Holy Spirit or God.
Suffering was no teacher to Jesus. The Holy Spirit or God, Revealed this Knowledge to Jesus, the Obedience to the Will of the Farther way before Jesus suffered. Can you understand this simple Truth.
Keeping with this Scriptural Truth.
John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Lets try this translation and let the Holy Spirit REVEAL this KNOWLEDGE to us.
Hebrews 5:8 And though he was a Son, through the pain which he underwent, the knowledge came to him of what it was to be under God's orders;
Lets us stay with the Truth of comparing Spirit with Spirit.
The Knowledge came to Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit or God.
Long before Jesus was to suffer he already KNEW why he is to suffer for the sake of the whole world's sin.
Long before Jesus is crucified , he KNEW why he was to die.
Jesus long KNEW before judas betrayed him why he was to be betrayed and handed over to the guards.
It was never any physical actions of suffering , dying, nor betrayal that taught Jesus anything of the Spirit.
Nothing of this world can TEACH Jesus anything of the the Father. Only by way of That which the Holy Spirit or God REVEALED to Jesus .
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
There is God, then Jesus , then man. Is this agreeable and True.
God gives to Jesus a Revelation, Jesus gives to man the same Revelation God gave to him.
This Revelation acknowledge to Jesus who he WAS, IS, AND WILL BE and was not taught by anything Physical.
Only God Spirit is capable of revealing Knowledge to Jesus, so that Jesus ascends the status as our MASTER Teacher. Just as Ray has learned by:::
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:
I have posted enough to show Jesus GAINED Knowledge by the God through Revelation. Where you go with it is your choice by Will of God.
Peace and Growth
Rodger
--- End quote ---
We may not understand HOW the spirit works but we are told in the sciptures over and over that it does.
This topic is about sharing the Word of God....you cannot share what you have not learned. Ray has expounded over and over ...you got to read what God says....and KNOW that it is true because God does not Lie.
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Luk 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
One of the local believers has business cards printed up and when he hears babylonean threatning helll for example he simply gives it to them and tells them to read them. On the card are the verses that rebuke what they are saying. He has several topics each with 2 to three verses printed and then just puts a few more that they can look up
he will usually just say
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Roy you really need to download Esword It is the only thing that has helped me.
Being raised Catholic I did not learn the verses, but I did learn Latin. Now, I know what the Bible says, so now I can use the search tool to find it. I still cannot quote one chap or verse unless I am currently studying it. But the Words remain in me.
The only reason I want to know the chapter and verse is so I can share it, so they can read the Word and the Spirit work on them. But I also know that the spirit will work even if you present the light in you. Who knows what (a rose) will provoke a person to READ THE WORD for themselves and have it revealed for the first time.
beloved
Kat:
Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, filled with the Holy Spirit and one with the Father and He was perfect all the days of His life.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
He was always one with the Father, even as a child religious leaders were "astonished at His understanding."
Luke 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
v. 47 And all that heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.
v. 48 And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why hast Thou thus dealt with us? behold, Thy father and I have sought Thee sorrowing.
v. 49 And He said unto them, How is it that ye sought Me? wist ye not that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50 And they understood not the saying which He spake unto them.
v. 51 And He went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but His mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
v. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.
Through this process "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature." He went through the process during His life, as He was "in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin."
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 5:8 even He also, being a Son, learned obedience from that which He suffered."
He "learned," Hebrews 2 has it another way... "to make... perfect through sufferings."
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
So we see Jesus was made perfect through sufferings and why was this necessary? Because He was "the author and finisher of our faith."
Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Php 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Here are a couple of emails, that will add to this discussion.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=305.0 -------
First concerning Jesus, When did he receive the Spirit of the Lord?
COMMENT: Jesus Christ WAS CONCEIVED by the Holy Spirit!
In Is 11:1-3 it talks about the Spirit resting upon Him as opposed to those in the Old Testament whom the Spirit came upon for a specific purpose and then departed. It appears that John had the Spirit on him until Jesus' baptism, and then it seems like it left him and resided in Jesus permanently.
COMMENT: Nonsense.
Prior to his baptism, Jesus did no recorded supernatural works, did he not have the Spirit from birth? What is your take on this?
COMMENT: "Prior to baptism, Jesus had no recorded supernatural works..." Oh really? And you think that Jesus living a SINLESS LIFE as a teenager is less of a "supernatural work" than turning water into wine?
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm -----------
Christ is the Image of the Invisible God. Christ is EVERYTHING that the Father is, only in the visible flesh of humanity. In that respect Christ IS our Father just as Isaiah prophesied. Jesus said to know Him is to KNOW THE FATHER. So, clearly, we know all that the Father is, THROUGH CHRIST! And that includes FATHERHOOD. Jesus Christ not only was a man, He is now and always will be A MAN. Notice that AFTER Jesus was resurrected and returned to the glory and splendor that He had in the beginning with God, that He is STILL called a MAN,
"For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
Try this: There is ONE GOD. Jesus Christ came OUT FROM God and is called the "Son OF God." The Holy Spirit comes OUT FROM God and is called the "spirit OF God." But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS, hence Jesus also has this SAME SPIRIT and therefore there is the "spirit OF Christ" which is the SAME spirit OF God. They BOTH possess the SAME SPIRIT. And as they possess the SAME SPIRIT, they are ONE!
--------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Beloved:
Roy Yes I did think that you did not have E sword. I am glad that you do because it is a great study tool.
I think we may be talking about two different things. Maybe not
Many in Babylon “preach the word”, They can quote scriptures extremely well. But they present the word wrapped in lies and their man made doctrines twist it to suit their needs. They do not understand the spiritual implications. They are the authors of confusion .
On the other hand how does one go out and present the spiritual to those who are totally blind and deaf to it.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Jesus himself used this method
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Yes our lives and actions can have impact but it is the Holy Spirit who needs to work on them. Yes we are salt and light and study and understand the Word.
Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day
.
What they need is Faith.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This is totally a work of God
..
Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
I see this psalm talking about those who the spirit quickens, even though a earnest, we are still in partnership with the heavenlies because the spirit of Christ dwells with us.
Do our actions mean nothing Paul tells us
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
And John shows the elect
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death
But also says
2Co 1:18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us--those being saved--it is the power of God
1 (1Co 1:21) for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing.
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness
Ray teaches that we are to rebuke these blasphemers. He also states that only some are teachers. If you go out into the world with the intent of arguing and debating , you will not get anywhere unless you are fluent in the Word and the Spirit directs you.
However those who are NOT teachers can also do God’s work, those who God brings into your life you can plant seeds, and teachers can water them….
but we all have to remember it is God that is making them grow, and they will not unless the soil is good.
I think people are seeing the good in your life, you can share what is giving you that Joy.
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
(1Pe 3:16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
(1Pe 3:17) For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
Ray also says, when confronted with a trial…always Do what is right in the eyes of God. That is worship and that is true obedience.
Yes I do believe that we all have had experiences that were in a way living parables. There is nothing new under the sun. But these too take spiritual understanding.
The little rose is (the few and feeling alone ) surrounded by( many branches ), on a healthy plant (in good soil) it is poignant especially coming from a burly man (even if he is a horticulturist)
But how many in the world will “really see” the spiritual connection with need for the Spirit. Nature and life is replete with examples of our Great and Wonderful God
So yes I can see what you are talking about and sharing these stories as the seed but I also see the need for the Word of God.
If you have not read this paper perhaps you will see what Ray says
http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
beloved
Ninny:
Sorry guys! I do agree with what Rodger said! I was just looking at things from a different perspective, I guess! I'm not really opposing anything at all! I understand what you're talking about. I totally agree that the Holy Spirit was Jesus' teacher! On a human level though I do think Jesus learned a lot about our "plight" by being here from a child. Maybe I'm just on a different wavelength today! I'm totally with you, though! :D
Kathy :)
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