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JUDE 1:9--Help?
daywalker:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on November 04, 2009, 05:51:57 AM ---
--- Quote from: Pamela on November 03, 2009, 07:40:25 PM ---If Jesus is Michael would he not have been strong enough?
--- End quote ---
Also one side note:
Ray does not teach that Jesus is Michael, though he does state that 'MAYBE' Michael is Jesus or symbolic of Jesus.
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3232.msg24050.html#msg24050):
Dear Roy:
We need to be careful about using words like "mere" when referring to such as Michael the ARCHANGEL. The "ANGEL OF THE LORD" mentioned so often in Scripture is more than mere! Likewise Jesus is in every meaning of the word, a "Messenger--Angel" of His Father. If ARCH- signifies the very highest, (and we have no other being called an ARCHangel in Scripture except Michael [which means LIKE GOD]), then just maybe Jesus IS THAT ARCHANGEL.
God be with you, Roy,
Ray
The reason I point this out is because Hebrews 1 makes a distinct difference between Christ and His angels...I'll ask Ray directly this weekend if he's free, or see if Dennis can ask him. Either way, I'm sure he can provide more insight than the short paragraph above.
Thanks,
Marques
--- End quote ---
Hey Marques,
I would love to hear more from Ray on this topic... thanks in advance!
Daywalker
XxMYKLxX:
I usually see Michael as a warrior, with battle gear..satan under his foot there is an angel that chains him in the bottomless pit. When he is released, and can't go back to heaven.. He'll show up.. in the flesh/ or through a person?
Pamela:
As an ex-Worldwide Church of God member, I previously understood Melchizedek to be Jesus and Hebrews 7 was a record of him reclaiming his previous position...
v. 2 ...first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
...that only Jesus can be called King of righteousness because: Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;...
v. 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
...that this verse indicated immortality...that Melchizedek was 'made like unto the Son of God' because he had not yet been born of Mary...
v. 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
...and that this verse by stating the lack of perfection of the Levitical priesthood, implied perfection of the priesthood of Melchizedek.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: XxMYKLxX on November 05, 2009, 01:43:53 AM ---I usually see Michael as a warrior, with battle gear..satan under his foot there is an angel that chains him in the bottomless pit. When he is released, and can't go back to heaven.. He'll show up.. in the flesh/ or through a person?
--- End quote ---
Rev 12:7-9 there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
Hello XxMYKLxX,
You seem to be interpreting the above verse as literal...though the book of Revelation is a book of symbols [Rev 1:1]. Heaven is a realm, not a place...Satan is a spiritual being, so he always is in the spiritual realm, though he influences the carnal mind here in the physical.
No where in scripture is it ever stated that Satan 'shows up in the flesh'. When Satan is released from the bottomless pit [Rev 20:3] he will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone for 'the eons of the eons' [Rev 20:10 CLV].
Have you read Ray's Lake of Fire series yet? Ray goes over a multitude of scriptures teaching about the Lake of Fire and the symbols used in Revelation.
Hope this helps,
Marques
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Pamela on November 05, 2009, 06:16:49 AM ---As an ex-Worldwide Church of God member, I previously understood Melchizedek to be Jesus and Hebrews 7 was a record of him reclaiming his previous position...
v. 2 ...first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
...that only Jesus can be called King of righteousness because: Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;...
v. 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
...that this verse indicated immortality...that Melchizedek was 'made like unto the Son of God' because he had not yet been born of Mary...
v. 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
...and that this verse by stating the lack of perfection of the Levitical priesthood, implied perfection of the priesthood of Melchizedek.
--- End quote ---
Hello Pamela,
Melchizedek is not Jesus and Jesus is not Melchizedek...he was only a 'shadow/type' of what Christ truly is. There are no scriptures which claim Jesus 'reclaimed' any position.
1. There are many passages where someone is referred to as 'righteous'...but this is only in the relative, not in the absolute. Similar to Jesus stating 'seek the Kingdom and it's righteousness' [Matt 6:33] which is relative because the absolute is 'none seeketh after God' [Rom 3:11].
Basically, no one in and of themselves is righteous...only through the grace of God is one righteous or in right standing.
2. Hebrews 7:2 states one 'like' the Son of God...Jesus IS the Son of God, never referred to as 'like' or 'similar'. Melchizedek's priesthood was continually because he had no son ['no descent'], not because he was immortal. Remember, Christ only has immortality [1 Tim 6:16].
The fact that he was not born of Mary has absolutely nothing to do with being the Son of God...only regarding Jesus did the Father state 'this day have I begotten you' [Ps 2:7, Heb 1:5]. Jesus is the Son of God because He is the Son of the Father [2 John 1:3].
3. No, there was no perfection of Melchizedek's priesthood implied...the writer of Hebrews states a priesthood 'should rise' [there would be no need to 'arise' a new priesthood if Melchizedek's was perfect] and one 'after the order' [in similar fashion...'a priest continually'].
Remember, 'all these things happened unto them for examples' [1 Cor 10:11] as well as 'These are the words which I [Jesus] spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me' [Luke 24:44]. Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of all the shadows & types of the OT, including Melchizedek.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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