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JUDE 1:9--Help?
Kat:
Hi Daywalker,
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
It seems to me that Satan is just asking for the "body of Moses" so as to reveal it's whereabouts to the Israelites. He knew that he could lead them into all kinds of inappropriate idolizing of the remains.
Michael/Jesus did not intend for things to go that way, but did not make "accusation" about the request, He just said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Ninny:
Hey George,
From Ray's answer to that email it seems that he isn't willing to treat the subject lightly, it seems some things should just be accepted for what they are. It's possible that Michael IS Jesus, we leave it at that. No real importance to prove or disprove it. It says what it says, if God wants us to understand it then at some point He will bring it out. some FUTURE point maybe? :D That's just the way God works everything, in HIS own good time! ;D
Kathy ;)
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: daywalker on February 10, 2009, 10:08:55 PM ---Hey Steve,
Yea, I've heard that for other passages, but in this verse it doesn't fit to me, because it says,
"... [Michael] durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
Surely, Jesus has the Authority to rebuke Satan, Himself, but perhaps I just don't understand what is happening in this verse...
--- End quote ---
Daywalker,
A 'railing accusation' is not the same as rebuking. The greek word for 'railing' is blasphēmia, which of course is translated time and again as 'blasphemy', 16 times actually. It is only translated 'railing' one other time which is in 1 Tim 6:4.
1 Tim 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings
Now remember the apostles' witness of our Lord:
1 Pet 2:21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1 John 3:5 And ye know that he [Christ] was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Also remember, Christ referred to His Father in Heaven as not only Father, but also God and Lord:
Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve
Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mark 12:29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment
The greek word for 'accusation' is krisis, which is translated 'judgment', 41 times. It is translated as 'accusation' only one other time, and yep wouldn't you know, in 2 Pet 2:11. This scripture also has the word 'railing' in it, though it is translated from blasphēmos.
2 Pet 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord
So 'blasphēmia' which is translated to 'railing' in Jude 1:9 is a feminine noun, according to Strong's concordance. And blasphēmos is translated to 'railing' in 2 Pet 2:11 is an adjective. But both mean to BLASPHEMY, which is something Michael [Gk. 'who is like God'] would not do, seeing our Lord does not speak evil from his mouth.
My personal opinion, and kind of goes along with what Ray hints to in his email, is that 'Michael' may not be a 'name' per se, but a title. Similar to Antipas from Rev 2:13 which means 'Like the Father'.
Excerpt from Lake of Fire series #11 (http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html):
WHO IS ANTIPAS?
"I know your works and where you DWELL, even where SATAN’S SEAT [throne] is: and you hold fast My name, and have not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr [Gk: ‘witness’], who was slain among you, WHERE SATAN DWELLS" (Rev. 2:13).
But how do we know that this is Jerusalem, and not the literal city of Pergamos to whom this message is addressed?
Because God gives us the same proof as when He tells us that,
"their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, WHERE also our Lord was crucified" (Re. 11:8 ).
And "where" was that? Jerusalem.
Where ever "Antipas" was martyred, is where Satan dwells and has his throne. But just who is Antipas? "Antipas" is not translated. It is the same word in the Greek Manuscripts. It is a compound word: "antee" and "pas." Antee carries the meaning of being ‘in place of another,’ and pas is from pater meaning ‘father.’ And so Antipas is speaking of one who is here in the place of his father. Who might that be?
"I came forth FROM the Father…" (John 16:28).
"Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He was come FROM God, and went to God" (John 13:3).
"But now I go My way to Him that SENT ME..." (John 16;5).
"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is IN THE BOSOM of the Father, he has declared [unfolded or revealed] Him" (John 1:18).
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I PROCEEDED FORTH AND CAME FROM God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me" (John 8:42).
"God… has in these last days SPOKEN UNTO US BY HIS SON…" (Heb. 1-1-2).
It is absolutely Scripturally clear that it is Jesus Christ who came "in the place of" His Father to reveal His Father to us. Jesus Christ is the Antipas.
The phrase "faithful martyr" is a proper translation, however the word translated "martyr" is from the Greek martus and is translated martyr only three times, but is translated "witness" twenty-nine times, for that is what its meaning is—a witness.
So Antipas, has come in the place of the Father. And Antipas is God’s faithful witness. And Who does the Scripture tell us is the "faithful witness" of God? Answer:
"And from JESUS CHRIST, Who IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS…" (Rev. 1:5).
And Antipas, Jesus Christ, was martyred IN JERUSALEM. Satan’s throne and dwelling place is in JERUSALEM!
Sorry, it's pretty early in the morning...don't know if I put all this in the order I meant. Just PM me if I need to be in more detail. Thanks
Marques
Harry:
Hi guy's,
I just want to say that I think Kat made an excellent point. It appeared to me anyway that she was seeing the verse in a way that didn't present a problem with Michael and Jesus being one. The way I interpreted what she said was, Michael/The Lord...did not bring a railing accusation.... but only rebuked him. At least that's how I took what she said. Certainly it seems that there must be a difference between a "Railing accusation" and a "Rebuke" ??? If that is the correct way to interpret the verse...this verse would confirm Michael as being the Lord.
Harry
Kat:
Hi Harry,
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Yes that is what I meant. I took a simple approach. Believing that this Michael is Jesus Christ and He knows the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:10), then there was no need for a "railing accusation" (Strong's - condemnation, damnation, judgment) Because He knew that Satan would not get his desire, as this was not in the plan of God. But Christ did "rebuke" (Strong's - admonish; by implication forbid) Satan for even making the request.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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