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Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
Kat:
Hi Joe,
May I suggest that Revelation is not in chronological order. If you consider that with chapter 20 then you can understand things better.
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
v. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
v. 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Christ removes Satan as soon as He returns. On the same day (whether before, during or after I don't know, but it seems to be in very close proximity) of His return is the first resurrection of the Elect.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended (spurious). This is the first resurrection.
v. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
This thousand year reign is symbolic of whatever the time period that would be required to bring about repentance and salvation.
Then we have Satan being released from his prison. I believe this to be after the reign of Christ and the Elect, as we have in the next verse "the thousand years are ended." But there seems to be those who have not yet reached salvation on earth "Gog and Magog."
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
v. 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
v. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
I can only speculate on who this "Gog and Magog" is, but whoever they are God's fire judgment is upon them and they shall be saved, but this happens after the thousand year reign. Now that Satan's work is done he can be cast into the Lake of fire, which of course is now the Elect plus all those that have been brought into the kingdom.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Now this is where I believe the chronological order is disrupted, as now we go back to where Christ return and raises the Elect and the rest of the dead which the Elect are to judge.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
v. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
v. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
v. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I know that Ray has not discussed this yet, so it is just speculative on my part. But it does seem to fit as I see it anyway.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on March 02, 2009, 03:33:33 PM ---Hi Marques,
Your point about Rev 20:5 is well taken, I wish Ray had expounded on this a little more as this chapter does appear to say that those who are not a part of the first resurrection are raised up after the thousand years.
Here is the entire chapter without verse 5;
Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 Deleted
--- End quote ---
Hello Joe,
It's not the entire verse that is spurious, just the first section: 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished'. The part that says, "This is the first resurrection" is scriptural. But I understand what you're saying.
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on March 02, 2009, 03:33:33 PM ---6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
It seems that this is saying that after the Millennium there will be another resurrection, doesn't it? I am open to a better interpretation always....
--- End quote ---
Oh, I think I see where you're going with that...the part where it says in verse 7 ('And when the thousand years are expired'), you believe that that statement is not limited to Satan being loosed out of his prison, but that everything after that phrase from verse 7 pertains to after the thousand year period, right? And that verse 4 where is says, 'they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years' is past tense (lived and reigned)?
Here is the CLV translation:
Rev 20:4 And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment was granted to them. And the souls of those executed because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on their forehead and on their hand- they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years
Rev 20:7 And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail
It seems with the KJV (and any like version as well) the past tense of 'lived and reigned' from Rev 20:4 makes it seems as though the 1000 year period passes before the next stated prophecies, but that is not the correct Greek tense. It's more of a statement of fact than of limitation to the 1000 year period. Basically, it's not 'they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years' THEN the next part...but rather 'they live and reign with Christ 1000 years'; that's it, that's what they are and will do.
Also, when John starts in Rev 20:7, he prophesies on Satan's destiny [v.8 'he shall', v10 'shall be']. But when he starts in Rev 20:11, he not picking up after and stating what's to come after Satan's destiny is fulfilled.
The 1000 year period is prophesied regarding the life & reign of the Elect with Christ as well as Satan's prison period, but the judgment of the wicked in Rev 20:11-15 is not stated to happen after those events. John talks about the life and reign of the Elect and how long Satan is to be imprisoned, but he never says 'then this happens' when talking of the GWT Judgment for the wicked...so there is no 1000 period between the resurrection of the just and unjust.
And if there is, there has to be 2-3 scriptural witnesses that give a spiritual match.
Thanks,
Marques
hillsbororiver:
Hi Marques,
Wow! :o
Once again we have veered a thread way off its original topic! ;)
Just to clarify what you are saying I have to ask you if you believe everyone is raised at Christ's return, the saved/elect/chosen into immortal bodies and the rest are raised into their physical bodies and they, along with those who are alive at His coming (but not saved) live through the "thousand years" under the rule of Jesus and His elect? That these dead (out of the earth, sea and "hell") are only spiritually dead but physically alive through the Millennium?
Perhaps I can give a better response if I knew your postion on this.
Thanks in advance.
Peace,
Joe
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote ---It seems that this is saying that after the Millennium there will be another resurrection, doesn't it? I am open to a better interpretation always....
--- End quote ---
Ray says (but don't know if he has said this publicly) that he believes the (so called) Millennium is the beginning of judgement, which pretty much does away with another resurrection.
Dennis
kenny:
thats what i am talking about, now there is some meat, i have not listened to every thing that ray has taught on,but if the the antichrist/ and the dragon is to be judged it stands to reason that our judgement comes then also it really is the only fit, another resurrection i dont see it in the picture.
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