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What part of this Book is not for you?
SteveB:
--- Quote ---Here is how I currently see the "rift" between Mike and Ray...
Ray believes that we (the elect) are NOT appointed unto wrath, (which is MORE THAN CLEAR in scripture, is it not?) Mike teaches that we ALL must go through the 7 last plagues (that which FILL UP the wrath of God). But then Mike states that he will NOT have to go through the wrath of God (7 last plagues?) because he already went though it (when he was in Babylon I suppose?)
--- End quote ---
Ray quotes 1Thes. 5:9...
1Th 5:9 For3754 God2316 hath not3756 appointed5087 us2248 to1519 wrath,3709 but235 to obtain1519, 4047 salvation4991 by1223 our2257 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ,5547
Now here is the word used in Rev. 15:1...
Rev 15:1 And2532 I saw1492 another243 sign4592 in1722 heaven,3772 great3173 and2532 marvelous,2298 seven2033 angels32 having2192 the3588 seven2033 last2078 plagues;4127 for3754 in1722 them846 is filled up5055 the3588 wrath2372 of God.2316
So we are talking about two seperate words. With two meaning!
Here are verses that have BOTH words in same sentence....
Col 3:8 But1161 now3570 ye5210 also2532 put off659 all these;3956 anger,3709 wrath,2372 malice,2549 blasphemy,988 filthy communication148 out of1537 your5216 mouth.4750
Eph 4:31 Let all3956 bitterness,4088 and2532 wrath,2372 and2532 anger,3709 and2532 clamor,2906 and2532 evil speaking,988 be put away142 from575 you,5216 with4862
all3956 malice:2549
Rom 2:8 But1161 unto them that are contentious,1537, 2052 and2532 do not obey544, (3303) the3588 truth,225 but1161 obey3982 unrighteousness,93 indignation2372 and2532 wrath,3709
Not the same words. With different meanings. Witness by them being used in the same sentence.
So in Rev. 15:1 the word translated 'wrath' is not the same used in 1Thes. 5:9. If you read the Rev. 15:1 verse its the SEVEN ANGELS(the elect) who 'fill up the wrath of God up'. Where is it filled?
bobf:
So is the "rift" strictly over the issue of whether the elect go through the wrath of God? Or is it more fundametnal than that -- has Ray really changed his view on "is, was, will be" in some greater sense? I can see the former, but I trouble believing Ray has changed his mind on something so foundational. Has Ray said he changed his mind or is that your interpretation of the situation?
SteveB:
--- Quote ---So is the "rift" strictly over the issue of whether the elect go through the wrath of God? Or is it more fundametnal than that -- has Ray really changed his view on "is, was, will be" in some greater sense? I can see the former, but I trouble believing Ray has changed his mind on something so foundational. Has Ray said he changed his mind or is that your interpretation of the situation?
--- End quote ---
From what I know Ray says that the elect dont 'is was and will be' go through the seal, trumpits, last plagues and that the elect are not 'is was and will being' the beast and false prophet. This is my understanding. If this is wrong then someone please correct me.
Mike told me that Ray understood and believed 'Mikes interpretation' of 'is was and will be' until sometime before the michigan conference about two months ago. Mike has been teaching it for years, which Ray knew and IS teaching in his '12 principles' paper(at least thats the way i read it). So I'd call it 'changing his mind'. I dont know what else to call it.
Peace...Steve
bobf:
Strangley enough, I have been struggling with this issue of judgment & wrath for some time. Why? Because in the OT judgment & wrath are something that precedes redemption of God's people. Yet the NT says we are not appointed to wrath.
Isaiah 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Joel 1:4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.....
....
2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;
2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
....
3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Maybe these words only apply to the NON-elect? Maybe the elect, if we are "good enough" can escape wrath? After all there is a NARROW GATE that does NOT lead to destruction.
So maybe these words are not meant for God's elect? But then says above "the sun & moon will be darkened" and this is quoted in Acts 2 as being fulfilled in God's elect on Pentecost. So then it does apply to God's elect.
So I am somewhat at a loss on this.
SteveB:
--- Quote ---Maybe these words only apply to the NON-elect? Maybe the elect, if we are "good enough" can escape wrath? After all there is a NARROW GATE that does NOT lead to destruction.
So maybe these words are not meant for God's elect? But then says above "the sun & moon will be darkened" and this is quoted in Acts 2 as being fulfilled in God's elect on Pentecost. So then it does apply to God's elect.
So I am somewhat at a loss on this.
--- End quote ---
Here is what i know. We are to keep the saying of the book of Revelation. That is as clear as anything I know in bible. It didnt say keep some of the saying it says ALL of them. And that is was and will be.
So we go through firey trails and scourgings in THIS life. Whats the difference between that and the 'wrath' of the wicked ?
Timing.
We are not appointed to 'wrath' that those in the second death will receive. Why? Because we were judged by grace through his chastening(trails and scourgings) to foresake ungodliness in THIS LIFE, THE FIRST DEATH. Sounds like the first and second resurection to me.
The elect go through the plagues, trumpits, seals NOW. The wicked later. God works His justice in the same way. Out of our own mouths we are judged. The elect and the wicked. ITS THE SAME JUDGEMENT. IT THE FIRE OF THE WORD OF GOD. ONLY ONE IS EARLY, ONE IS LATER. One is called a firey trial (the first death) one is called 'the lake of fire'(the second death.) Same Fire, its OUR GOD. Same result Oneness in the Father.
Peace...Steve
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