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What part of this Book is not for you?
rocky:
--- Quote from: SteveB ---
--- Quote ---Maybe these words only apply to the NON-elect? Maybe the elect, if we are "good enough" can escape wrath? After all there is a NARROW GATE that does NOT lead to destruction.
So maybe these words are not meant for God's elect? But then says above "the sun & moon will be darkened" and this is quoted in Acts 2 as being fulfilled in God's elect on Pentecost. So then it does apply to God's elect.
So I am somewhat at a loss on this.
--- End quote ---
Here is what i know. We are to keep the saying of the book of Revelation. That is as clear as anything I know in bible. It didnt say keep some of the saying it says ALL of them. And that is was and will be.
So we go through firey trails and scourgings in THIS life. Whats the difference between that and the 'wrath' of the wicked ?
Timing.
We are not appointed to 'wrath' that those in the second death will receive. Why? Because we were judged by grace through his chastening(trails and scourgings) to foresake ungodliness in THIS LIFE, THE FIRST DEATH. Sounds like the first and second resurection to me.
The elect go through the plagues, trumpits, seals NOW. The wicked later. God works His justice in the same way. Out of our own mouths we are judged. The elect and the wicked. ITS THE SAME JUDGEMENT. IT THE FIRE OF THE WORD OF GOD. ONLY ONE IS EARLY, ONE IS LATER. One is called a firey trial (the first death) one is called 'the lake of fire'(the second death.) Same Fire, its OUR GOD. Same result Oneness in the Father.
Peace...Steve
--- End quote ---
Interesting scripture.
Isaiah 30:33
33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it
chrissiela:
Steve,
All of those things that you mention (and those Mike and Ray have mentioned) are IN the Book of Revelation. Like the Lake of Fire, which is the second death, and the wrath of God.
Don't you think that this may be just a matter of two people looking at different sides of the same coin, thinking that they are seeing something different when they are not?
If we are NOT appointed to wrath and we do NOT go through the Lake of Fire (second death) then how do we 'keep' that part of the prophecy of the book?
Mike is saying that we DO keep it and go through it (but earlier and as a 'fiery trial' etc) and Ray says that we DO NOT because we are not appointed to wrath (which sounds pretty much like the SAME thing to me, as I am sure that Ray acknowledges that we go through that "fiery trial" NOW).
Seems to me that they are BOTH RIGHT, in a sense, and the argument is over how the words or saying are applied and what it means to "keep" the sayings of the prophesy of this book.
The Lake of Fire is IN the book, it is PART of the prophesy. YET, the elect are NOT HURT by it. Doesn't mean they don't experience a 'fiery trial' of their own now and it doesn't even mean that they are not a part of the Lake of Fire (as He makes His ministers a FLAME OF FIRE). Even those who are tormented in the LoF are tormented IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB, right?
I don't think that it is as easy as making a list of all the things that are written about in Revelation and saying that every single person will go through every single thing written, as it is written. Because not ALL are cast into the Lake of Fire, though ALL will go through 'the fire' (or judgment) of God. (That is just one example that I can think of.)
I still think of these things as things that we are to WATCH for, as SIGNS OF THE TIMES, so that we may discern them... but not, necessarily, that we each go through those experiences and those 'sayings' in the same way or at the same time. Which seems to me to be what you are also saying? Even, perhaps, what both Mike and Ray are saying - but saying differently??
So I am having a hard time understanding exactly what the 'differences' are between Mike and Ray on this. And am wondering if they aren't a bit closer than they think, but just seeing the same thing at a different angle - so describing it differently??
Chrissie
Beloved:
Everybody is throwing down the word keep and making it bold and underlining it. Try defining it before you say you agree with it.
Get your E=swods out and do a study on the word keep and keepeth, There are many scriptures (440) some with both the word keep and do.
They are totally differwent words. It doesn't mean live it. It means to guard put a hedge around. Hold it so precious that you will lie down your life for it.
f Christ lives in you, the old man is dead and you are not doing anything any more. Nothing you do will ever Glorify God it is Christ in you that worketh and this will Glorify God when everything is manifested. I do not think that God could be more blunt than referring to us as filtly menstrual rags.... duh.
If we could not obey the 10 commandments ,what makes you think you can even begin to obey the Golden Rule as expoused by Christ.? One of the guys wrote a paper about this. Only Christ with his perfect obediance to the will of the Father accomplished that.
John was the last living Apostle, he was given this Revelation and told to write it down. If you read it and have ears to hear you must guard it.
This is an awsome responsibility. The elect are being allowed to witness and participate in His plan. You are not the Elect just because you come out of Babylon . You need to run the good race not physically but spiritually. You need to mature in the Word and die daily in the flesh.
(1Co 9:26 KJVR) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
(1Co 9:27 KJVR) But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
No He did not just write to the seven churches in Asia. He wrote to all the called through the ages , That is all of Babylon. even when you were in it. When you are called out you then begin to see what the symbols reallly mean. The study of revelations is so layered with spiritual meanings and the papers that came out did not begin to scratch the surface.
Let the guys write their stuff. We may witness a great spiritual sword (word) fight. But we will still need to be Bereans and search and hunger for the truth.
I love that word Truth in Hebrew is emeth, it is a feminine form of Amen. In hebrew it is an Alpha and Omega word (read right to left).
Christ is the Word, the Truth and the Alpha and Omega.
Beloved
chrissiela:
--- Quote from: Beloved ---Everybody is throwing down the word keep and making it bold and underlining it. Try defining it before you say you agree with it.
Get your E=swods out and do a study on the word keep and keepeth, There are many scriptures (440) some with both the word keep and do.
They are totally differwent words. It doesn't mean live it. It means to guard put a hedge around. Hold it so precious that you will lie down your life for it.
--- End quote ---
Maybe you have a different definition of "everybody" but if you look back about 8 posts you will see where the word was defined. :wink:
--- Quote ---f Christ lives in you, the old man is dead and you are not doing anything any more. Nothing you do will ever Glorify God it is Christ in you that worketh and this will Glorify God when everything is manifested. I do not think that God could be more blunt than referring to us as filtly menstrual rags.... duh.
If we could not obey the 10 commandments ,what makes you think you can even begin to obey the Golden Rule as expoused by Christ.? One of the guys wrote a paper about this. Only Christ with his perfect obediance to the will of the Father accomplished that.
--- End quote ---
Is someone arguing against that? Besides, you CAN obey the 10 commandments (to the letter) and still NOT "obey the golden rule".
--- Quote ---John was the last living Apostle, he was given this Revelation and told to write it down. If you read it and have ears to hear you must guard it.
This is an awsome responsibility. The elect are being allowed to witness and participate in His plan. You are not the Elect just because you come out of Babylon . You need to run the good race not physically but spiritually. You need to mature in the Word and die daily in the flesh.
(1Co 9:26 KJVR) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
(1Co 9:27 KJVR) But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
--- End quote ---
Amen!
--- Quote ---No He did not just write to the seven churches in Asia. He wrote to all the called through the ages , That is all of Babylon. even when you were in it. When you are called out you then begin to see what the symbols reallly mean. The study of revelations is so layered with spiritual meanings and the papers that came out did not begin to scratch the surface.
--- End quote ---
I think that everyone here understands that the 'seven churches' represent ALL. And I think all or most understand that you will not even be able to read or hear (understand) what is written in the book UNTIL God gives you the eyes and ears to see and hear.
As far as the article goes, I did not read what came out before it was taken down, so I cannot speak to what it did or did not cover, but I would agree with you that there are many spiritual layers to it and it may not even be POSSIBLE to uncover them all and COMPLETELY understand what is written therein or what was 'witnessed' by John. But as we GROW in Christ (or He grows IN US) will see and hear and understand more.
--- Quote ---Let the guys write their stuff. We may witness a great spiritual sword (word) fight. But we will still need to be Bereans and search and hunger for the truth.
--- End quote ---
As many here are also trying to do. And news of a 'rift' between the two men has opened some discussion about what exactly their 'differences' are. which is only natural. I would think that to be part of being a "Berean", as well as part of ones "search and hunger for the truth"?
--- Quote ---I love that word Truth in Hebrew is emeth, it is a feminine form of Amen. In hebrew it is an Alpha and Omega word (read right to left).
Christ is the Word, the Truth and the Alpha and Omega.
--- End quote ---
AMEN!
Chrissie
chrissiela:
These seem to fit well with the revelation of Jesus Christ and with the KEEPING of those things that have been given to us by Him, as well as what He is KEEPING for us:
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.[/list:u]
We don't 'do' or 'keep' any of this ALONE. It is only by and through HIM and the faith and the love, the mercy and the grace that He bestows on us that we are MADE ABLE to do or keep ANYTHING.
Blessings,
Chrissie
PS... yes, I KNOW it's not the 'same' word for keep as in Revelation, but it carries the same meaning.... to watch or to be on guard. :wink:
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