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Author Topic: What part of this Book is not for you?  (Read 15672 times)

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Daniel

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2006, 01:35:12 PM »

Quote from: chrissiela
Quote from: eutychus
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;


FIRE + SAND= GLASS

anyone know who the fire is? what the fire is

GOD BLESS
euty


Well, we know that God is a consuming fire, right?  :wink:

What about the LAW though....??? Think that might 'fit' in there somewhere too??

Chrissie


The Lord descended on Mount Sinai with Fire. The law is not of faith and it "worketh wrath", where God swears concerning His entering His rest.


Moses (the ministry of death) smote the Rock (Christ) Twice in type. Looks like "second strike from the ministry of death". Second death, being it hath "power over" and "its sting" is because it is the very power of sin itself. Its sting is sin (sting of death and its condemnation) verses in Christ who "loosed the pains of death" (who is without sin). In Christ there is no condemnation. I would ask in accordance to these two "Where, is thy sting"? The victory and overcoming is through faith the law is not of faith.

Twicedead is shown here and now. The first age, and age to come. These be living "after the flesh" even as Paul says ye shall die. But if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live (we live by faith and the effectual working of His power in those who believe). We live and reign by one, Christ Jesus, sin not having dominion over us because we are under grace. Sin has its reign and power under the law while we were yet in the flesh as death itself is shown reigning from Adam to Moses (old man and law). Not "new man" and "grace".

We are all "by nature" (the flesh) children of wrath like the rest while we were in the flesh, so we come from "there" as no flesh can please God. He seeks those to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Its the passing over from death (ministry of condemnation, living after the flesh) to life (ministry of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus) here and now. Believing not in Him and Gods wrath abiding on them would be where?

I agree, we are not appointed to wrath as much as we are not appointed to shrink back to that which makes nothing perfect. To simply "die in ones sins" and not SEE the LIFE here and now, for by wrath the land is simply "darkened".

I'm agreeing with Chrissie, and good word Bobby. I also see the sword cutting the picture in two parts or portions as even Craig pointed out. I too have been doing an extensive study on this. Seems we are all interested.

Daniel
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Lightseeker

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2006, 03:36:26 PM »

Quote
 Mike:

After visiting your site regarding the upcoming Conference in Michigan, I see that you are planning to teach that the Elect will all have to go through the Seven Last Plagues. I have already told you that I believe this to be unscriptural. The elect assuredly DO NOT go through the Seven Last Plagues. God, in fact, gives assurance, that if His people will "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive NOT OF HER PLAGUES" (Rev. 18:4). The only way that you can put the Elect through the Seven Last Plagues, is to "add to" or "take away from" this plain Scripture stating that those who come OUT OF HER (the Elect) will NOT receive of her plagues.
"For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:9). The Seven Last Plagues fill up "the WRATH of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:17), and the Elect are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. What are the Elect appointed to? They are appointed to "afflictions and tribulation," (I Thes. 3:3-4), not the WRATH OF GOD (I Thes. 5:9). What part of the word "not" do you not understand?


Is it possible that both Ray and Mike are right?  Might I expand on the scriptures quoted, in a teaching of comparison, and see if additional light might not be shed upon this dilemma.

Did Israel go through the Plagues of Egypt?  Yes!  Was she touched by them?  No!  Did not Shadrack, Meshach and Abednego go through the wrath of the firey furnace, of King Nebuchadnezzar?  Were they harmed or was the smell of smoke even upon them?  No!  Are we not admonished to be in the world and yet not of the world.  So also, can one be in the church and yet not of the church.  The church by definiton is the called out ones, and we don't do the calling...God does.  But aren't the nomial believers still part of 'the church'?  But to become a chosen or elect one is not of his calling but of our doing....after His calling.  

MAT 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called (kletos/saints), but few chosen (eklektos: select; by impl. favorite).


Do the overcomers (chosen ones) overcome by leaving…or by not partaking of her sins and blasphemies...by cleaning up their act in obedient sanctification.  

There are those in the church who are living ‘in Christed’ and in the heavenlies.  They are also those who are led by the Spirit of God and are therefore Sons of god (Rom 8:14).  But there are also those in the church who are 'in Christ' and living at the earthly realm, far below the position that comes to those who press in to the high calling of Christ (Phi 3:14).  But they are not 'the elect' because they have not cleansed themselves to be chosen and honorable vessels (2Ti 2:21).

REV 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive/lambano not of her plagues.  

The word for receive in this verse is not saying what it superficially seems to be saying.  This word 'lambano' indicates 'a self prompted taking' of something.  Whereas the other Greek word usually translated receive is 'decomai'.  It means a passive reception of something.  Those who are going to partake of the plagues will be those who have taken/received them because they haven't pressed into the high calling.  But those who have will be allowed to go through them...and yet without being touched by them.

Is this a possibility.  Could both, Ray and Mike, be half right and yet half wrong?
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Becky

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2006, 03:40:56 PM »

hey great find!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was listeneing to Rays talk on deedles website... the last 20 minutes of How Hard is Getting Saved part 2,....Ray says: We're going to live the seals"...and much more that seemed to jive with what mike was saying... im not sure why they disagreed... it seemed like they were argueing the same thing... only thought the other was against them... i dunno... Ray seems pretty sure about his talk here...... check it out!
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Daniel

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2006, 03:51:35 PM »

Quote from: Lightseeker
Quote
 Mike:

After visiting your site regarding the upcoming Conference in Michigan, I see that you are planning to teach that the Elect will all have to go through the Seven Last Plagues. I have already told you that I believe this to be unscriptural. The elect assuredly DO NOT go through the Seven Last Plagues. God, in fact, gives assurance, that if His people will "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive NOT OF HER PLAGUES" (Rev. 18:4). The only way that you can put the Elect through the Seven Last Plagues, is to "add to" or "take away from" this plain Scripture stating that those who come OUT OF HER (the Elect) will NOT receive of her plagues.
"For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:9). The Seven Last Plagues fill up "the WRATH of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:17), and the Elect are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. What are the Elect appointed to? They are appointed to "afflictions and tribulation," (I Thes. 3:3-4), not the WRATH OF GOD (I Thes. 5:9). What part of the word "not" do you not understand?


Is it possible that both Ray and Mike are right?  Might I expand on the scriptures quoted, in a teaching of comparison, and see if additional light might not be shed upon this dilemma.

Did Israel go through the Plagues of Egypt?  Yes!  Was she touched by them?  No!  Did not Shadrack, Meshach and Abednego go through the wrath of the firey furnace, of King Nebuchadnezzar?  Were they harmed or was the smell of smoke even upon them?  No!  Are we not admonished to be in the world and yet not of the world.  So also, can one be in the church and yet not of the church.  The church by definiton is the called out ones, and we don't do the calling...God does.  But aren't the nomial believers still part of 'the church'?  But to become a chosen or elect one is not of his calling but of our doing....after His calling.  

MAT 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called (kletos/saints), but few chosen (eklektos: select; by impl. favorite).


Do the overcomers (chosen ones) overcome by leaving…or by not partaking of her sins and blasphemies...by cleaning up their act in obedient sanctification.  

There are those in the church who are living ‘in Christed’ and in the heavenlies.  They are also those who are led by the Spirit of God and are therefore Sons of god (Rom 8:14).  But there are also those in the church who are 'in Christ' and living at the earthly realm, far below the position that comes to those who press in to the high calling of Christ (Phi 3:14).  But they are not 'the elect' because they have not cleansed themselves to be chosen and honorable vessels (2Ti 2:21).

REV 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive/lambano not of her plagues.  

The word for receive in this verse is not saying what it superficially seems to be saying.  This word 'lambano' indicates 'a self prompted taking' of something.  Whereas the other Greek word usually translated receive is 'decomai'.  It means a passive reception of something.  Those who are going to partake of the plagues will be those who have taken/received them because they haven't pressed into the high calling.  But those who have will be allowed to go through them...and yet without being touched by them.

Is this a possibility.  Could both, Ray and Mike, be half right and yet half wrong?


Exactly its as two parts within one. One feels the evil and anguish the other is simply not hurt but both are there. Same with being chastened or Judged of the Lord in order to learn the difference in these things.

Those who threw in the three in the fire were consumed suffered loss the three in the fire felt nothing, no hurt or power over them. Protected in His presence as our Life is Hid in Christ in whom we are sealed (protected). One is doing the wrong and the other has done no wrong. One is protected the other consumed.

Daniel
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Harryfeat

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2006, 04:20:45 PM »

Quote from: Lightseeker



Do the overcomers (chosen ones) overcome by leaving…or by not partaking of her sins and blasphemies...by cleaning up their act in obedient sanctification.  

There are those in the church who are living ‘in Christed’ and in the heavenlies.  They are also those who are led by the Spirit of God and are therefore Sons of god (Rom 8:14).  But there are also those in the church who are 'in Christ' and living at the earthly realm, far below the position that comes to those who press in to the high calling of Christ (Phi 3:14).  But they are not 'the elect' because they have not cleansed themselves to be chosen and honorable vessels (2Ti 2:21).


Excellent post lightseeker.

I zeroed in on part of it because this has also been a source of confusion to me.  Is it not true that we are not overcomers by our own wills but by the grace and will of the Father.

Since God does the choosing, is it possible that all the elect are still part of organized religion? Is God still perfecting mankind? Is it possible that no more elect , except for possibly the apostles, will be chosen until God molds mankind into a better clay pot  a 1000 years from now with a more  spiritual frame of reference?  Just some hypotheticals that hit me.

There are so many interpretations of Revelations I've read that it is understandable that many are confused and in disagreement.


Thanks for your most  helpful post.

feat
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Becky

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2006, 04:28:15 PM »

where'd steveb go??
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Deedle

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2006, 04:29:28 PM »

banned
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love_magnified

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2006, 04:41:24 PM »

Quote from: Mike
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Did Christ purify the Sons of Levi? Of course He did not. They killed Him. Is Malachi therefore a heretic?


?????

Yes Christ did! Who are the sons of Levi if not the elect? The elect is the Israel of God and they have been purified by Christ's blood. Why must we see Malachi's prophecy according to physical Israel.

Didn't God say that he would make a royal priesthood and a special people. He was talking TO physical Jews. But who was he talking about? US. WE are a holy nation and a royal priesthood.
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Daniel

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2006, 04:57:41 PM »

Sometimes you wonder if its not too much the case of being right or wrong always. Seems moreso how we "behave" while thinking we are either right or wrong. We can be quick to point out and wrest with a word becoming a heretic in that way and calling "the other" one not realizing this in ourselves. Like straining out a gnat in that regard but swalling a camel :lol: Overlooking the more weightier issues.

Granted those who taught concerning the "resurrection" being "past" were (in doing this) overthrowing the "faith" of some. That to which affected ones hope or faith (which worketh by love). That which spoke to their "hope" to know "Him" (who IS the Resurrection). It was to that Paul was speaking concerning something that would overthrow their faith and hope (to which we are called). We are saved by hope, being an heir of God "in this world".

Daniel
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love_magnified

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2006, 05:18:03 PM »

In looking at both arguments it seems that there is a difference in application. Mike sees that the blasphemous Babylonians recieving the plagues are within each man. While Ray is saying that the Babylonians are in the church system alone.

What this is leading to is Mike saying, within us is the man of sin who is in many ways still part of Babylon cursing God as he recieves the plagues. It isn't that we are cursing God and refusing to repent, but that our flesh is doing that, or the sin in our flesh, the man of sin within each of us. Mike's interpretation seems more inward focused.

On the other hand Ray has a good point too. God has admonished us to come out of Babylon and NOT recieve those plagues. If Babylon is the church and we have come out of the church we should not be recieving those plagues at all. The elect do not blaspheme God.

I think a major difference has to do with the fact that Mike is speaking from a subconcious point of view, that our flesh is still part of Babylon so it is blapheming God, but Ray is coming from a more conscious point of view that blasphemy is a matter of being consciously opposed to God and consciously separated from the church.
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Deedle

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2006, 05:39:42 PM »

Eph 2:2  
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 3:6  
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7  In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Deedle  :D
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chrissiela

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2006, 05:42:37 PM »

Quote from: love_magnified
Quote from: Mike
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Did Christ purify the Sons of Levi? Of course He did not. They killed Him. Is Malachi therefore a heretic?


?????

Yes Christ did! Who are the sons of Levi if not the elect? The elect is the Israel of God and they have been purified by Christ's blood. Why must we see Malachi's prophecy according to physical Israel.

Didn't God say that he would make a royal priesthood and a special people. He was talking TO physical Jews. But who was he talking about? US. WE are a holy nation and a royal priesthood.


Wasn't that Mike's point? That's what I understood him to be saying... that it was not the PHYSICAL (sons of Levi), but the SPIRITUAL (sons of Levi).

That this was a Prophecy... and meant to be 'applied' SPIRITUALLY.

Chrissie
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chrissiela

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2006, 05:47:42 PM »

Great verses, Deedle!!

Chrissie
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love_magnified

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2006, 06:06:08 PM »

Quote from: chrissiela
Wasn't that Mike's point? That's what understood him to be saying... that it was not the PHYSICAL (sons of Levi), but the SPIRITUAL (sons of Levi).

That this was a Prophecy... and meant to be 'applied' SPIRITUALLY.

Chrissie


It sounds like Mike to make that point, but in his wording I must have missed it. I'll look again.

Quote
Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.


Good scriptures Deedle.

Every time I think of the 7 Plagues, I think of Egypt's 10 plagues, and then I think of Goshen. Aren't we in Goshen? What does it say that the Jews were in Goshen not recieving the 10 plagues, but were then delivered out of Egyptian slavery?

Could it be that Egypt represents the sinful flesh, recieving the plagues, while we spiritual Jews, at the same time, are preserved in Goshen awaiting complete deliverance through the manifold presence of the Holy Spirit within? Paul says that we are no longer in the flesh, while Peter says that we still contend with fiery trials of temptation. But the more we are putting to death the deeds of the body, the less plagues we recieve because we are "coming out of her." Maybe. Just thinking out loud.
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Craig

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2006, 06:14:03 PM »

Quote from: Becky
where'd steveb go??


I don't know what happened, still checking.

Craig
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Becky

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2006, 06:15:41 PM »

thanks for checking!
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shibboleth

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2006, 09:26:39 PM »

I want to know why SteveB was banned. He was merely asking the same questions others have asked about Ray and Mikes departure. Why can't Ray tell us what he means in his reply to Mikes e-mail and the second part of his "How to Be Saved" tape. I can't speak for Ray and if there are questions, we can't answer them. Only Ray can. Could you please ask Ray about this Dennis or one of the other mods. I believe we all want to know what he has to say.
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love_magnified

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2006, 09:45:51 PM »

chrissiela, you were right. Mike is in agreement with the fact that Malachi was speaking spiritually, and was therefore using that as an example suggesting that the plagues likewise have spiritual application to the flesh that resists God such as the fire that cleanses the Levites today. I mistook his wording, so after another reading it became more clear. Thank you.  :D
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gmik

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what part of book is not for you
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2006, 10:06:51 PM »

I may be going out on a limb, but REALLY, couldn't Ray or Mike deliver a message to us so we can end all this speculation on whether they are really agreeing from different angles??

I think this is too important for them not to talk to us.  I am too afraid to send an email to Ray-I fear his answer.  And why should we inundate him with the same question.  I have met Mike at a conference and tried to get thru but couldn't e mail from his website.

I'm just saying...... :roll: Please talk to us.
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love_magnified

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What part of this Book is not for you?
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2006, 11:38:18 PM »

Gmik, I think they are still working it out. Patience, patience. Consider the fact that they might still be working on understanding eachother and are hesitant to make anything sound "official." If anything does become official it would be right for them to come out and say so themselves. Until then, patience. I'd rather have a fuller complete message, than "maybe this" and "maybe that."  :wink:
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