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[SteveB]

Its an honest question. I NEEDS an answer. What part of the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is NOT for you?

Below is a portion of Rays, 'Twelve God-given Truths to understand His Word.'  

Is the whole book of the revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, not for US?

Love...Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TRUTH NUMBER 11

"Grace be into you, and peace, from Him which IS and which WAS, and which IS TO COME…" (Rev. 1:4).

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, says the Lord, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME, THE almighty" (Rev. 1:.

"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME" (Rev. 4:.

"Jesus Christ the same YESTERDAY, and TODAY, and FOR EVER" (Hebrews 13:.

When God wants to emphasis something, He repeats it. When He really wants to emphasize something, He repeats it again. When He really, really, really wants to emphasize something, He repeats it multiple times. Let’s count the times God uses this phrase:

"Him which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME" Rev. 1:4).

"I AM alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the ENDING, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME" (Rev. 1:.

"I am Alpha and Omega, the FIRST and the LAST" (Rev. 1:11).
 

"I am the FIRST and the LAST" (Rev. 1:17).
 

"I am He that LIVES, and WAS DEAD; and, behold, I AM ALIVE" "Rev. 1:18).
 

"the FIRST and the LAST, which was DEAD, and is ALIVE" (Rev. 2:.
 

"Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME" (Rev. 4:.
 

"Oh Lord God Almighty, which ART, and WAS, and ARE TO COME" (Rev. 11:17).
 

"Thou art righteous, O Lord, which ARE, and WAS, and SHALL BE" (Rev. 16:5).
 

"I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END" (Rev. 22:13).

Let’s try reading a few verses together with this spiritual understanding of what is "spiritual," and what still, "is, was, and will be." A couple of years ago I presented the following in one of my Lake of Fire Installments:

"The [spiritual] Revelation [that is, was, and will be] of [spiritual] Jesus Christ [who is, was, and will be], which God gave unto Him, to show unto His [spiritual] servants [which are were and will be] [spiritual] things [which are, were, and will be] which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and [spiritually] signified [what is, was, and will be] by His [spiritual] angel [which is, was, and will be] unto His [spiritual] servant [which is, was, and will be] John.

Who bare [spiritual] record of [what is, was, and will be] of the [spiritual] word [which is, was, and will be] of [spiritual] God [who is, was, and will be], and of the [spiritual] testimony [which is, was, and will be] of [spiritual] Jesus Christ [Who lives, was dead, and am alive; Who is, was, and will be; the Alpha and the Omega; the beginning and the end; Who is, was, and is to come], and of all [spiritual] things [which are, were, and will be], that he [spiritually] saw [things that are, and were, and will be].

[Spiritually] Blessed is he [who is, was, and will be] that [spiritually] reads [what is, was, and will be], and they that [spiritually] hear [what is, was, and will be] the [spiritual] words of this [spiritual] prophecy [which is, was, and will be], and [spiritually] keep those things [which are, were, and will be] which are [spiritually] written therein: for the [spiritual] time [that is, was, and will be] is [spiritually] at hand" (Rev. 1:1-3).

If anyone thinks this is funny, he is laughing at God, not at me. Once one thoroughly understands this spiritual truth of what is, was, and will be, it is not necessary to read the entire Book in the way I have stated it above. Neither is it necessary to repeat the words of James when he instructs us to always be aware of the fact that "If the Lord will, we shall do this, or that" (James 4:15).

The testimony of Jesus Christ does not change, and Christ Himself does not change, and therefore His dealings with humanity do not change, other than that there is coming a consummations of sin and death. Christ is not changed, but WE WILL BE CHANGED to conform to the Image of Jesus Christ.

[mustardseed]

When God wants to emphasis something, He repeats it.

I agree.

Rev 1:3  Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

[SteveB]

and [spiritually] keep those things [which are, were, and will be] which are [spiritually] written therein: for the [spiritual] time [that is, was, and will be] is [spiritually] at hand" (Rev. 1:1-3).

The testimony of Jesus Christ does not change, and Christ Himself does not change, and therefore His dealings with humanity do not change, other than that there is coming a consummations of sin and death. Christ is not changed, but WE WILL BE CHANGED to conform to the Image of Jesus Christ.

This was posted a few months back. And agree with it. Seems as though Rays has changed his mind yet is keeping this paper teaching this Truth on his site and yet says its not true.

I'm confused.

Love...Steve

[shibboleth]

I have some things to think about too, SteveB. I believe Ray has a lot of truth, but he isn't God and doesn't have all truth. Maybe Ray just can't see some of the contradictions in what he teaches. We are all falwed vessels, some are more flawed (me) than others.

What are the sound doctrines we are to contend for? When are we to judge a brother? How are we ever going to live together if we have to agree on everything? But, there must be some things we need to agree on? I am going back to the beginning of Matthew and read and study to Revelation and I'm begging god to help me understand what He means.

But, if Ray and Mike both believe you have to have 100% agreement in all points, then I guess sooner or later this parting of company would have taken place. Maybe Jesus has been neglected in all this and He needs to be the rightful head of his body and church.

[mustardseed]

Believe this shibboleth, try the spirits (1Jn. 4:1) by the word of God. If someone tells you that some of the book of Revelation is not for you...and you look in Revelation and see...

Rev 1:3  Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

...then you know what to believe.  God's Word is the test.

[rvhill]

Pride lead before a fall. People need to understand what is important and what is less important.


Things everyone should agree on.

1.Jesus is the way and only ways.
2.Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
3.John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [ Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
4.Luke 10:27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' [ Deut. 6:5] ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' [ Lev. 19:18] "
5. the Doctrine of Jesus as in Matthew 5 and Luke 6.
6. sovranty of God.
7.The ideals of the after life are pagan, and are not found in the Bible.

1 is first, 2 to 5 are all pretty close and 6 and 7 are father down the list. There are other things that are important, but why worry about them. No one hear has fully grasped most of 1 through 7.  I don't know about you people, but I tend to not think about 6 and 7, just because 1 through 5 are so hard for me to embrace. 4 and 5 really kick my butt. I just fall so short on those two, it not even funny.

[SteveB]

We are all falwed vessels,

Amen.

How are we ever going to live together if we have to agree on everything?

Its a tall order, I know. Impossible for the flesh, I know. But ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR JESUS CHRIST.

Thats the Truth. I believe it.

I follow Ray or Mike, as LONG AS THEY HAVE THE DOCTRINE OF JESUS CHRIST.

When the day come I see they dont have this doctrine I will no longer follow them as they follow Christ.

Christ is # 1 in my life not a man. But I love these men because Christ loves them. If one turns out to be an enemy of the cross, I''ll still love them.

I just WONT GIVE AN INCH ON HERESY. Thats what we ALL should do. That what i'm going to do.

Love...Steve

[Gill]

Believe this shibboleth, try the spirits (1Jn. 4:1) by the word of God. If someone tells you that some of the book of Revelation is not for you...and you look in Revelation and see...

Rev 1:3  Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

...then you know what to believe.  God's Word is the test.

Hi Mustardseed,
would like to add the second verse to your 1John 4:1 ~
1Jo 4:2  in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is,

Ok, on to Steve's question.
Well, well, the book of revelation ~ what bits apply to me ...that's the $64,000 question.

I have a problem with understanding how we're to 'keep' a book that is signified.  I wish that there was a clearly expressed interpretation of this vision within scripture itself (i know, i know, 'i need eyes and ears to see it right?'  :wink:  ...maybe you are right about that).  Paul forbade the use of tongues within the church unless there was an interpreter present, otherwise it was useless for edification.  And now, here we have this whole book needing it  :shock:  :lol: .

For me, if someone tells me to 'do' or 'not' do something solely based on scriptures from revelation, then i'm afraid i can't put much stock into it.  There is plenty of plainly expressed instruction within the new testament to be concerning myself with, without getting 'hung-up' upon the many different interpretations of revelation.  You want to know how many different views there are on revelation?  :lol:

Steve, do you believe that one has to understand this vision in its entirety and then keep/follow/apply it? (still don't quite understand how anyone uses a vision as cryptic as revelation, and with no clear interpretation within the rest of scripture, and turns it into instruction.)  What if i choose to accept my ignorance on the book and not get too involved in the different views on it?  Does that mean that i can't be a true disciple?

Edit:  I wonder how the elect 'kept' this book before it was written  :-k  And did it only get sent to the churches in Asia?

[Harryfeat]

We are all falwed vessels,

Amen.

I follow Ray or Mike, as LONG AS THEY HAVE THE DOCTRINE OF JESUS CHRIST.

When the day come I see they dont have this doctrine I will no longer follow them as they follow Christ.



Love...Steve

Hello Steve,

I don't understand what you mean when you say you "follow", do you mean you view yourself as a disciple?  

I believe that Christ's doctrine is summed up fairly simply with....item number four of RVHILL's post......Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

What is your definition of the doctrine of Christ?  Is it different than my opinion?

As far as Revelations goes,  what is in there that is important to an understanding of the doctrine of Christ.  Do we need to really understand any of it? If Revelations were not included as part of the bible, would it significantly change your search for and understanding of  truth.   It's a question that I have no answer to but would be interested in finding out.

I also would be wary of anyone who told me that something from scripture was "not for me"

I think your question spawned even more questions from me.  I apologize for any inconvenience caused but I just have no real answers and would appreciate further understanding if possible.

thanks for raising the question.
feat

[rocky]

Here is some scripture to ponder.  

Rev 3:10  `Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

Rev 1:3  Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it--for the time is nigh!

Rev 2:11  He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death.

Rev 3:18  I counsel thee to buy from me gold fired by fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white garments that thou mayest be arrayed, and the shame of thy nakedness may not be manifest, and with eye-salve anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see.

Rev 3:19  `As many as I love, I do convict and chasten; be zealous, then, and reform;

Rev 12:10  And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;

Rev 12:11  and they did overcome him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life--unto death;

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, `Come forth out of her, My people, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues,

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

Rev 20:6  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:15  and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Rev 21:7  he who is overcoming shall inherit all things, and I will be to him--a God, and he shall be to me--the son,

Rev 21:8  and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part is in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.'

Rev 22:7  Lo, I come quickly; happy is he who is keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll.'  

Rev 22:12  And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be;

Rev 22:14  `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;

Rev 22:15  and without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.


1Jo 5:4  because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world--our faith;

1Jo 5:5  who is he who is overcoming the world, if not he who is believing that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jo 3:14  we--we have known that we have passed out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death.

[rocky]

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  

 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  

 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.  


 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  


 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.  


 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.  

 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.  


 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,  

 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.  

 Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
 
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things

1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  


 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  


 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.  


 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  


 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.  


 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.  


 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.  


 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,  


 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.  


 Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
 
wrath against the day of wrath???


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.


1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

[Daniel]

SteveB great topic, you got me thinking and searching. I was thinking of "The prophecy" the "testimony", what it is we keep and I wrote down what I found. No doubt He remains the same, but He came only once to bear sin, not again and again and again thats made clear. The word needs to be rightly divided as well, thats scriptural. Rvhill and feat brought up excellent thoughts, I feel very much the same. Sorry a little long, I really got into this one.

The testimony of Jesus Christ IS the Spirit of prophecy, keep HIS sayings, HIS words. The book is a complete and beautiful revelation OF HIM

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that "keepeth the sayings" OF the prophecy OF this book.

Rev 19:10  I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.[/u]

Like the covenant no man addeth or taketh away from it if it be confirmed. The law itself was added but (but watch the "untils") there was no law that could justify. The first itself is taken away. We are not to add or take away from the prophecy (Jesus Christ) of this book. Keep his sayings.

We abide in his word and His word in us. His doctrine. We have this "testimony" IN US

2Peter 1:19 We have also a MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise IN YOUR HEARTS:[/u]

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath THE WITNESS IN HIMSELF[/u]...


We are told abide in Him as it hath taught us being true and no lie. We abide in His word and His doctrine and Gods love is perfected in us.

Looked up say, sayings and word then fell on this which speaks of the way we walk, (our path, hearing him obeying him walking in love)


John 8:52 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.[/u]


Prov 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life; and in the pathway thereof there is no death.[/u]  


John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.[/u]


1John 2:4 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?


1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.[/u]


Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.[/u]


The Son of God (comes to "give us understanding" HE is the VOICE of "MY WORDS") Hearing His voice as God says, hear ye HIM.


Job 34:16  IF NOW thou HAST UNDERSTANDING, HEAR THIS: hearken to THE VOICE of MY WORDS.[/u]


Which is?

Psalm 119:101  I have REFRAINED MY FEET from every EVIL WAY, that I might KEEP THY WORD.[/u]



Job 28:28 Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to DEPART FROM EVIL IS UNDERSTANDING.


Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that DOETH EVIL, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile



Ecc 8:5 Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart "discerneth" both time and judgment.[/u]


John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.[/u]


Prov 16:17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth "his way" preserveth his soul.[/u]


1John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.[/u]


1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.[/u]


Obviously I love the scriptures as most here, Jesus does say you can search the scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life ( to know God ). The scriptures bear witness of Him. He is supposed to be revealed in you and is evidenced by Gods love you have toward His name. I believe its Him alone who opens any book to us. Afterall only He can reveal Himself to whom He chooses. Again I love the book of revelation. So "in that" you could say I "keep" the words of that "book of prophecy". Its the "words" OF the "prophecy" (Jesus Christ) of the book. Keeping His word, his sayings, his word. Isn't it walking in love? in his commandment? the commandments? The anointing is to teach us and we are also to abide in "that" as scripture says. I can't "literally" walk across a dry Euphrates :lol:  

So its hard to figure out how another might boldly exclaim concerning "keeping the words". No doubt its clearly written and I love meditating therein but to one it can mean a completely different thing then it means to another. If the book of revelation is a "revealing" of Him. You aint gonna get even a glimpse without obedience to Him. Its through obedience to Him that He manifests (reveals) Himself as He said.

Daniel

[bobf]

and [spiritually] keep those things [which are, were, and will be] which are [spiritually] written therein: for the [spiritual] time [that is, was, and will be] is [spiritually] at hand" (Rev. 1:1-3).

The testimony of Jesus Christ does not change, and Christ Himself does not change, and therefore His dealings with humanity do not change, other than that there is coming a consummations of sin and death. Christ is not changed, but WE WILL BE CHANGED to conform to the Image of Jesus Christ.

This was posted a few months back. And agree with it. Seems as though Rays has changed his mind yet is keeping this paper teaching this Truth on his site and yet says its not true.

I'm confused.

Love...Steve

How has Ray changed his mind on this??

[jerreye]

Here is how I currently see the "rift" between Mike and Ray...
 
Ray believes that we (the elect) are NOT appointed unto wrath, (which is MORE THAN CLEAR in scripture, is it not?) Mike teaches that we ALL must go through the 7 last plagues (that which FILL UP the wrath of God). But then Mike states that he will NOT have to go through the wrath of God (7 last plagues?) because he already went though it (when he was in Babylon I suppose?)

SO, perhaps they are BOTH correct, but are both looking at it from different perspectives.  :idea: The ELECT are NOT the "ELECT" until he/she comes OUT of Babylon (which is possibly where we experience these 7 plagues -- IF we do NOT "come out of her"?), but once we come OUT of Babylon, we are no longer under the wrath of God (and therefore no longer have to go through the 7 LAST PLAGUES), but under Grace?  :?

Jeremy

[SteveB]

For me, if someone tells me to 'do' or 'not' do something solely based on scriptures from revelation, then i'm afraid i can't put much stock into it.  There is plenty of plainly expressed instruction within the new testament to be concerning myself with, without getting 'hung-up' upon the many different interpretations of revelation.  You want to know how many different views there are on revelation?  :lol:

You'd be right if revelation was the only book. The sum of Gods Word is Truth. Its all or none. And there is only one interpretation of revelation and its the one explained in the bible.

Steve, do you believe that one has to understand this vision in its entirety and then keep/follow/apply it? (still don't quite understand how anyone uses a vision as cryptic as revelation, and with no clear interpretation within the rest of scripture, and turns it into instruction.)  What if i choose to accept my ignorance on the book and not get too involved in the different views on it?  Does that mean that i can't be a true disciple?

Depends on your def. of 'understand'. If you mean LIVED(i.e-keep) then yes you do have to keep it. If you mean understand EVERY mystery of the bible then, no. You choose to accept ignorance? The only way you can have eternal life is to know God and Jesus who He sent. Christ is the Word. Revelation is the Word of God. See?

Edit:  I wonder how the elect 'kept' this book before it was written  :-k  And did it only get sent to the churches in Asia?

Keeping the book doent mean you have to have read what John wrote. Keeping it, is living it. Before the book of Revelation was written the saints(if they were overcomers) kept the 'book' because the Book is Christ.

Love...Steve

[Origen II]

You know what's sad? People who don't even believe in Christ seem to have an easier time getting along with everyone than those that do...

[SteveB]

Hello Steve,

I don't understand what you mean when you say you "follow", do you mean you view yourself as a disciple?  

I believe that Christ's doctrine is summed up fairly simply with....item number four of RVHILL's post......Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

You have to know what those scriptures mean. Love is keeping the revelation of Jesus Christ.

What is your definition of the doctrine of Christ?  Is it different than my opinion?

Depends on your 'opinion'.

As far as Revelations goes,  what is in there that is important to an understanding of the doctrine of Christ.  Do we need to really understand any of it? If Revelations were not included as part of the bible, would it significantly change your search for and understanding of  truth.   It's a question that I have no answer to but would be interested in finding out.

'Understanding' the Word is Keeping the Word. We would be required to keep the saying of 'this Book' if we didnt have ANY SCRIPTURES. Christ is the Book.

I think your question spawned even more questions from me.  I apologize for any inconvenience caused but I just have no real answers and would appreciate further understanding if possible.

I dont have all the answers either. All I know is what i've been given to know.

Peace...Steve

[SteveB]

and [spiritually] keep those things [which are, were, and will be] which are [spiritually] written therein: for the [spiritual] time [that is, was, and will be] is [spiritually] at hand" (Rev. 1:1-3).

The testimony of Jesus Christ does not change, and Christ Himself does not change, and therefore His dealings with humanity do not change, other than that there is coming a consummations of sin and death. Christ is not changed, but WE WILL BE CHANGED to conform to the Image of Jesus Christ.

How has Ray changed his mind on this??

#1 because Mike has been teaching the 'is was and will be' of the Book of Revelation for YEARS and only a few months ago Ray 'changed his mind'. I've been reading there material for almost a year and I know since i've been here only recently has this application of scripture been disputed.

#2 Read the first quote above. Ray says that we 'keep those things, which are, were and will be. How can you keep the whole book in an 'is was and will be' application and at the same time not accept large parts of the book and an only 'will be' application? If someone could explain that, i'm willing to listen.

#3 In the second quote Rays says that 'Chirst doesnt change' but Christ Himself says He 'is was and will be' MANY TIMES. How can He 'not change' but change at the same time? I willing to listen.

Peace...Steve

[longhorn]

Sounds like both Ray and Mike have allowed the BEAST to raise it's head, that and IMO, both are a little to full of themselve's.

Longhorn

[chrissiela]

I think this is a whole lot more complex (or maybe more simple) than it is being made out to be. The entire book of Revelation is about the appearing of Jesus Christ and it is signified, right?.

The word "keep", as in keep the saying of this book, means ‘a watch’ or ‘to guard (by keeping the eye upon)’.

These are the things that we are to WATCH for, that signify His appearing.

This is something that I wrote on another forum several days ago and that I sent to Mike yesterday. I have no idea if it agrees completely with either Mike or Ray, but here it is:

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I have been looking at the Book of Revelation and am wondering what does it mean to ‘keep those things which are written therein�?

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy,

and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.[/list:u]


This ‘phrase’ is repeated three times, I think, in the book. There in Rev 1:3 and here:

Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly:

blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:8  And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Rev 22:9  Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.[/list:u]


There are other reference in Revelations and throughout the scriptures about ‘keeping’ His commandments and ‘keeping’ His word. Not sure if that is related or not, but seeing that the word here for ‘keep’ is tēreō which appears to mean ‘a watch’ or ‘to guard (by keeping the eye upon)’.

In Rev 19:9 and 22:6 we have:

Rev 19:9  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me,

These are the true sayings of God.

Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.[/list:u]


The entire Book of Revelation is about the revelation OF JESUS CHRIST… it is about His ‘appearing�, His ‘coming’, right? That is what the ‘sayings’ are about, right?

It was signified to John, and includes the ‘signs of the times’ of His coming, does it not?

Signs that the Scribes and the Pharisees could not discern:

Mat 16:3  And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites,

ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?[/list:u]


We are admonished in scripture to WATCH for Him:

Mat 24:42  

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mar 13:32-37  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Luk 12:37-40 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. [/list:u]


Even in the Book of Revelation we are told to watch, lest he come as a thief unto us:

Rev 3:3  Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.

If therefore thou shalt NOT watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.[/list:u]

So when it says:

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy,

and keep (watch, or keep their eye upon) those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.[/list:u]


I tend to think that it mean to ‘keep watch’ and be able to ‘discern the times’, for THE TIME IS AT HAND, and He COMES QUICKLY and we best not be caught ‘sleeping’ when he does appear.

But not only that, but that those things that are we are to be ‘watching’ for are the things that we will be ‘going through’ and we “are His� then these are the things that we should be experiencing in our own life and see happening in the lives of others??

We are to heed the words written to the angels of the churches and take note, if you will, of the promised that are made “to those who overcome�.

We must recognize the ‘beast’ and pay attention to where the ‘seat of Satan’ is, etc; be able to recognize “MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT� and come out of her so that we “be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues�, etc.

But, overall, be able to discern the signs of the times?

Any thoughts?

Blessings,
Christine

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Something that I should have added, but didn't think about at the time was this:

Judgment has been given to the saints:

1Co 6:2  

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Psa 149:5-9   Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.[/list:u]

Think about that in light of just who it is who is pouring out the wrath of God in the book of Revelation.

Rev 1:20  

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.[/list:u]

It is the 'angels' that are sounding the trumpets and pouring the vials in the Book of Revelation. IS, WAS, and WILL BE, as I see it.

Blessings,
Chrissie