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as many as thou hast given me
legoman:
Thanks Kat & Marques,
(everyone else) As you can see that verse (John 17:2) can cause some confusion...
I think you have confirmed my earlier thinking in the OP.
Basically:
1. The father has given all power to Christ.
2. A certain subset of people have been given to Christ for the specific purpose of aionios life. This is the "as many as Thou hast given" - the subset, also called the chosen or elect, have been given for aionios life. Everyone else will NOT get aionios life AT ALL. They will get aionios chastisement/punishment instead.
3. Of course everyone will be eventually saved after the ages (aions) end.
I think the confusion may be because I wasn't paying attention to all the words. Look at some of this translations that George posted:
Joh 17:2 (GW)
After all, you've given him authority over all humanity so that he can give eternal life to all those you gave to him.
Notice: The father gave authority over all people. But he will only give aionios life to the people that were given him [to give aionios life too].
Is that clear?
It doesn't help that it references "eternal" life - so if you just read it at face value it sounds like all will be given eternal life. Even though that is true, that is not what this verse is saying! Argh! I think I understand this better now, but I probably didn't explain it well... :)
Legoman
aqrinc:
--- Quote from: legoman on March 09, 2009, 12:18:25 PM ---Hi,
I'm looking for clarification of this verse:
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal [aionios] life to as many as thou hast given him.
Here is my understanding: The father has given Jesus power over all flesh. And he will give aionios life to "as many as thou hast given" to him.
Is this phrase "as many as thou hast given" referring to the firstfruits only? ie. the chosen elect? Even though the Father has given Jesus power over all, he has only been given the chosen few for aionios life, right?
Its interesting because some universalists use this verse to show that all will get eternal [aionios] life, since Father has given Jesus power over all - I don't believe this is quite correct.
Likewise Calvinists will use this verse to show that God only gives eternal life to the elect, which is not correct either.
Any clarification available in Ray's papers?
Kevin
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: legoman on March 09, 2009, 09:20:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: Marky Mark on March 09, 2009, 04:26:21 PM ---Kevin,
Is not Jesus the Christ the savior of all men?I do not see anywhere in Scripture that Jesus is only the Savior of the elect.I would have to think that Jesus is talking to the Father about the few chosen on down through the ages. Starting with his Apostles but also His disciples.The elect are called out first, in the Truths of the Word.
--- End quote ---
Agreed. My question was more to clarify the meaning of that particular verse (John 17:2).
I believe that verse is showing that the "as many as thou hast given" is only speaking of the elect, as you suggest as well. Marques point out the scriptures that confirms this as well.
That's not to say that Jesus doesn't save the non-elect as well (although many people would suggest that).
It was more of a "curiosity question" as I've seen a few UR believers suggest that all people will get eternal/aionios life because of that verse John 17:2.
--
Here is the confusing part for me:
All things have been given to Christ (John 3:35, John 13:3). But only "as many as thou hast given" shall receive aionios life (John 17:2).
So even though all things have been given to Christ, only those given specifically for aionios life receive aionios life (ie. the elect).
Thanks,
Kevin
--- End quote ---
Kevin, Marques,
I thought the above statement was posed as a question, which is why my post was posed as an answer.
My second post in this thread was specific to Eileen's question first; then asking for anyone with better
understanding to jump in and explain if i was in error.
Hope this clarifies why i thought it was a question from Kevin.
george :).
legoman:
No problem george. Partly it was a question from me - just for clarification though.
Anyway thanks for all the responses.
First Fruit:
Guys, bare with me as I am flowing by the Spirit.
Our Father has given us power over all our flesh. Power to destroy the works of the flesh/mind, to walk in the spirit and not according to the flesh/world. To take every though captive and bring it into the obeience of Christ. Our weapons of warfare are not carnal but mighty in power... Renew our minds be not conformed to the world. He has given us power to live holy and blameless before him and our conduct, conversation, character should reflect such. Our light should shine before men that they may see our works and glorify our Father. Our light should expose the darkness. Darkness has on place in the light. What fellowship does darkness have with light, holy with unholy, clean with unclean?
God has given us children as gifts, we are responsible for them. We are to train them up in the WAY they should go. Let them see our light. Teach them the things of their true Father, that their light might shine. This is how we become fruitful and multiply. Our children are our fruit, let's not lead them astray then we too can say, those you have given me, I have lost none.
As for me and my house (my flesh, my body, my members), we will serve the Lord...
Fellow laborer
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: First Fruit on March 11, 2009, 10:29:19 AM ---Guys, bare with me as I am flowing by the Spirit.
Our Father has given us power over all our flesh. Power to destroy the works of the flesh/mind, to walk in the spirit and not according to the flesh/world. To take every though captive and bring it into the obeience of Christ. Our weapons of warfare are not carnal but mighty in power... Renew our minds be not conformed to the world. He has given us power to live holy and blameless before him and our conduct, conversation, character should reflect such. Our light should shine before men that they may see our works and glorify our Father. Our light should expose the darkness. Darkness has on place in the light. What fellowship does darkness have with light, holy with unholy, clean with unclean?
God has given us children as gifts, we are responsible for them. We are to train them up in the WAY they should go. Let them see our light. Teach them the things of their true Father, that their light might shine. This is how we become fruitful and multiply. Our children are our fruit, let's not lead them astray then we too can say, those you have given me, I have lost none.
As for me and my house (my flesh, my body, my members), we will serve the Lord...
Fellow laborer
--- End quote ---
Slow down there First Fruit...your enthusiasm is appreciated but this excerpt from your comments is not fulfilled, as of yet:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Rom Chapter 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Short excerpt from 'How Hard is Getting Saved?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html):
All these things take a lifetime. We’re going to live "the seals." A third part of the man died... that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die, a third part of the carnality. God works in increments, He wipes out some of the trees and then He burns some of the grass… what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues, they are all things that must happen in our lives.
Everything about being called, chosen, and faithful takes a lifetime...picking up our cross, baptized into His death, coming out of Babylon, etc take one's complete lifetime. These things are not simply accomplished by reciting a few scriptures, logging onto a forum, leaving a church building, or anything of those simple, outward things. These things happen IN US over our entire lifetime, in this age.
Learning to not worship the beast when it was as natural to do as breathing takes a lifetime.
Why do we console a member who is fighting his smoking addiction and say:'it takes time...the Lord will have you quit on His time' but on the other hand, we treat coming out of Babylon and not worshiping the Beast as simple as walking out of a church door. Or partaking of spiritual meat, or His grace working in us...these things take a lifetime. They are not as simple as 1, 2, 3.
Please excuse me First Fruit as these last few comments were not directly primarily at you, per se, more for all our members. I just don't want us to become complacent and get our guards down...it is a daily war with the flesh and we, any of us, could be 'castaway' [1 Cor 9:27] by assuming it's a 'done deal'.
Thanks,
Marques
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