> General Discussions
Choices vs. Destiny
Amrhrasach:
--- Quote from: daywalker on April 22, 2009, 12:13:39 PM ---Hey Gary,
The trick is to separate free will from making choices.
You do make choices. You always make choices. You do have a will. You always have a will. But your choices and your will are never "free - unrestricted, unlimited", or absent of causes.
God Bless You, My Friend,
- Daywalker.
--- End quote ---
Thanks Daywalker. Agreed, that's the trick. Unfortunately I'm an old dog. ;)
As for "causes" I understand, at least that part, of Ray's teachings. All effects have their causes. Phenomenal chain reaction. However when presented with a choice to do right or wrong and one chooses what turns out to be a wrong choice with disastrous results some wish to believe and reason backwards that God caused the wrong choice. I don't believe that to be true. Now I don't anyway. Indirectly perhaps but certainly not directly. Your quoting of Paul would exclude that reasoning as well. And that's the crux of where understanding and error reasoning cross and it's a long difficult process to understand, at least for me. The head of the idol wails against reason. And i'm not sure I'm there yet.
Gary
daywalker:
--- Quote from: Horseman on April 22, 2009, 12:44:26 PM ---
--- Quote from: daywalker on April 22, 2009, 12:13:39 PM ---Hey Gary,
The trick is to separate free will from making choices.
You do make choices. You always make choices. You do have a will. You always have a will. But your choices and your will are never "free - unrestricted, unlimited", or absent of causes.
God Bless You, My Friend,
- Daywalker.
--- End quote ---
Thanks Daywalker. Agreed, that's the trick. Unfortunately I'm an old dog. ;)
As for "causes" I understand, at least that part, of Ray's teachings. All effects have their causes. Phenomenal chain reaction. However when presented with a choice to do right or wrong and one chooses what turns out to be a wrong choice with disastrous results some wish to believe and reason backwards that God caused the wrong choice. I don't believe that to be true. Now I don't anyway. Indirectly perhaps but certainly not directly. Your quoting of Paul would exclude that reasoning as well. And that's the crux of where understanding and error reasoning cross and it's a long difficult process to understand, at least for me. The head of the idol wails against reason. And i'm not sure I'm there yet.
Gary
--- End quote ---
I totally agree. It's one of those things that no matter how "obvious" it gets, or how much "sense" it makes, there are still days/moments when gets foggy, and in that moment it doesn't "make sense". Guess that's where "faith" comes in to play... ???
Daywalker.
EKnight:
[/quote]
However when presented with a choice to do right or wrong and one chooses what turns out to be a wrong choice with disastrous results some wish to believe and reason backwards that God caused the wrong choice. I don't believe that to be true. Now I don't anyway. Indirectly perhaps but certainly not directly.
Gary[/color]
[/quote]
I know you said you no longer believe that. I just wanted to emphasize one thing. One cannot make a wrong choice. Whatever choice you made/make is the will of God and therefore the right choice regardless of the outcome.
I have experienced this very scenario first hand and while I sometimes question my decision because of the outcome not appearing to be rosy, I know that I prayed hard for guidance when making the decision and unless Luke 11
--- Quote ---11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
--- End quote ---
is not the truth, I know that God led me to what was right in His sight.
Eileen
aqrinc:
Study a little bit of Physics and Quantum Mechanics to understand how utterly foolish this notion of Free will is. Below are a few declarations from The Very Creator Himself. Let the Word Of God Defend Itself from all naysayers.
This Is The God Of The OT Speaking:
Num 23:19 (KJV)
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Isa 46:9-11 (KJV)
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
The answer is right where we should go to find it:
This Same God Is Speaking in The NT; call Him A Lair Or believe What He Says. Trust The Scriptures Which are life or trust your own desperately evil heart; that keeps denying plain stated truth.
Joh 5:19 (ESV)
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
Joh 5:30 (ESV)
"I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 15:5 (ESV)
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
george. ;D
Marky Mark:
Email to Ray.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7286.0.html
Dear John: Please show your friend my comment. People not only do not believe the Scriptures, they DESPISE the Scriptures. People want to believe the damnable lie and heresy (II Pet. 2:1) that God gave to mankind a "God-thwarting power" called "free will"--"human free [uncaused] moral agency."
They WILL NOT obey a God Whom they think can "control" them. What are the Scriptural facts? As though people who despise the Word of God are interested in Scriptural facts. Your friend contradicts his own argument with his own argument: "JESUS OBEYED AS HE CHOSE TO DO NOT HIS WILL BUT THE FATHERS WILL." And did Jesus "CHOOSE" to not do His own will BY HIS OWN ["free"] WILL?
WHY have "all sinned" (Rom. 3:23) except Jesus (Heb. 4:15)? Christendom and her hundreds of thousands of theologians cannot answer that question using the Scriptures. Because if God had not prevented Jesus from sinning, and He was tempted as we are, and He possessed the fabled "free will" that all men supposedly have, then Jesus WOULD HAVE SINNED. Why (without the Father living IN HIM) would His "free" will NOT have sinned? Give me a Scripture? PLEASE? Remove my statement that the Father would not allow Jesus to sin, and then SHOW ME in the Scriptures where it was possible for Jesus NOT TO SIN? Show me the Scripture?
Who operates in man to do good? Who operated in Jesus to do good?
Phi 2:13 "For it is God [Who? Man? NO--'GOD'] which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Do Christians believe this verse? Of course not.
Joh 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." Do Christians believe this verse? Of course not. So then, did the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God the Father IN Jesus keep Him from sinning or not? Was it the Father's WILL, that Jesus SIN? Then WHOSE will did Jesus pray would keep Him from sinning--"
Mat 26:39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Do Christians believe this verse with all their "free will" nonsense? Of course not. When Jesus prayed, where those Jesus' words or the words of His Father "...working in Jesus both to will and to do of His good pleasure?"
Jud 1:24 "Now unto Him [GOD ALMIGHTY] that is able to keep you from falling [Gk: aptaistos "a derivative of G4417; not stumbling, that is, (figuratively) without sin: - from falling"--Strong's Greek Dictionary]and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy." So God can keep us from sinning, but He could not and did not "keep Jesus from SINNING?" Do Christians believe this verse? Of course not.
Etc., etc., etc. But why go on? Christians who worship the godless idols of their hearts, will NOT receive instruction from the Word of God. They will NOT!
God be with you,
Ray
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