> General Discussions
Choices vs. Destiny
Astrapho:
--- Quote ---Of course we have a will, it's just that it isn't free to operate WITHOUT A CAUSE.
--- End quote ---
I thought on the vast implications of this.
Every time we make a choice, we are adding to the cause leading to another choice, which causes another choice, and another, and another, and another....
So this cause and effect chain reaction has stretched back all the way to... I can't imagine it, quite honestly. I wonder if it's right to say that everything we do now, every choice we make, was caused from choices made from the beginning of the world, originating from God's choice to make the world in the first place.
So if God has really "predestined everything by His foreknowledge", and brought out choices from causes which were choices brought about by other causes in the first place which were brought about by God from the beginning, then there simply can't be free will because of this unimaginably massive chain reaction. And with this understanding, you can truly believe that God's hand really is on everybody's life, he really has everything in control, he really has "declared the end from the beginning", and that there really is no "free" will. ;D
I wonder if I even make sense.
EDIT: For instance, I decided to waggle my little finger at "random" after reading Zander's post, and realized that I waggled it precisely because of it. Lol.
daywalker:
--- Quote from: kenny on April 21, 2009, 09:05:37 PM ---So God is the Beginning and the End and he controls every thing and he has "controled" the Choices, between the Beginning and the End, but they are our choices to make?
--- End quote ---
Hey Kenny,
You make choices based on the circumstances that you put into, and there are many things that can affect the choices you make. Your parents and how you were raised have a huge impact on who you are today, right? If you were raised by a Church-going family, you'd have a very different view on life and humanity, then say, someone who was raised be Atheists. Your family and friends likewise have a huge impact on your life. Also, the city/state/country you are raised in, and the schools that you attend, and the many trials that you endure...
I could go on and on about all the different variables that affect you and cause you to make the choices that you make. This is why you don't have a "free" will, because you don't make choices "freely", there's always a reason [i.e. cause].
Since GOD is the Creator of everything, He is also the Creator of all the different variables that cause the circumstances to come about that cause you to make the choices you make. Thus, God is ultimately the cause of everything. But that doesn't mean that He directly makes humans do anything. He can, and sometimes He does:
- God made a giant fish swallow Jonah and take him to Nenevah
- The Holy Spirit made Mary become pregnant with Jesus
- Jesus made Saul repent and become the Apostle Paul
You always have a choice. You always have a will. But your choices and your will is far from being "free".
Don't believe me? Try to STOP Sinning. ;)
God Speed, my friend,
- Daywalker.
kenny:
--- Quote from: daywalker on April 22, 2009, 11:54:05 AM ---
--- Quote from: kenny on April 21, 2009, 09:05:37 PM ---So God is the Beginning and the End and he controls every thing and he has "controled" the Choices, between the Beginning and the End, but they are our choices to make?
--- End quote ---
Hey Kenny,
You make choices based on the circumstances that you put into, and there are many things that can affect the choices you make. Your parents and how you were raised have a huge impact on who you are today, right? If you were raised by a Church-going family, you'd have a very different view on life and humanity, then say, someone who was raised be Atheists. Your family and friends likewise have a huge impact on your life. Also, the city/state/country you are raised in, and the schools that you attend, and the many trials that you endure...
I could go on and on about all the different variables that affect you and cause you to make the choices that you make. This is why you don't have a "free" will, because you don't make choices "freely", there's always a reason [i.e. cause].
Since GOD is the Creator of everything, He is also the Creator of all the different variables that cause the circumstances to come about that cause you to make the choices you make. Thus, God is ultimately the cause of everything. But that doesn't mean that He directly makes humans do anything. He can, and sometimes He does:
- God made a giant fish swallow Jonah and take him to Nenevah
- The Holy Spirit made Mary become pregnant with Jesus
- Jesus made Saul repent and become the Apostle Paul
You always have a choice. You always have a will. But your choices and your will is far from being "free".
Don't believe me? Try to STOP Sinning. ;)
God Speed, my friend,
- Daywalker.
--- End quote ---
Daywalker
Thats good my friend, i was reading some e-mails to Ray, on free will and in one of his replies, he brought this very thing to light, and it is in line with what, I already had some understanding of and now it is getting clearer and clearer.
daywalker:
Hey Gary,
I got no problems with quoting Ray, I do it also. I was just making the observation that you compared his quote with my question of having a Scripture... But as I said I didn't know if that was your intent, I was just observing.
The topic of Free Will is the most difficult of all, I totally agree. It's only in the recent months that I've started to completely [that is completely as a human can..] comprehend it. The trick is to separate free will from making choices. We have had it drilled into our heads through both Religion and through the Secular World that makings choices = free will, and therefore, if you take away the free will than you take away our ability to make choices.
But this is not the case. You do make choices. You always make choices. You do have a will. You always have a will. But your choices and your will are never "free - unrestricted, unlimited", or absent of causes.
Here's a great Scripture from the Apostle Paul that really started to help me understand this "free will" thing. I pray that it will help you as well. I'll quote it from a few translations:
Revised Standard Version:
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
English Standard Version:
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Contemporary English Version:
Rom 7:18 I know that my selfish desires won't let me do anything that is good. Even when I want to do right, I cannot.
19 Instead of doing what I know is right, I do wrong.
This is the Great Enigma of Life. The fact that we do things against our will every day is proof positive that our wills are not "free". But we naturally are prideful, self-righteous creatures, who want to believe that we are in control, even when it's obvious that we are not. And yes God created us this way. And only God can open a person's eyes so that they can SEE.
God Bless You, My Friend,
- Daywalker.
--- Quote from: Horseman on April 22, 2009, 09:07:17 AM ---
Hi Daywalker. To answer, Roy asked about “preordained”. Your reply of the definition of “preordained” included “foreordain”. I included Ray’s writing of “predestinated”, which also links to “foreordain”.
“foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future.”
Is everything preordained? Do you have a Scripture on that,friend?
Preordain: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain
Appoint: to assign officially to a job or position
Decree: An authoritative order having the force of law.
Foreordain: to determine (events, etc.) in the future
/v. prɪˈdɛstəˌneɪt; adj. prɪˈdɛstənɪt, -ˌneɪt/ Show Spelled pre⋅des⋅ti⋅nate Pronunciation [v. pri-des-tuh-neyt; adj. pri-des-tuh-nit, -neyt] Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
–verb (used with object) 1. Theology. to foreordain by divine decree or purpose.
2. Obsolete. to foreordain; predetermine.
–adjective 3. predestined; foreordained.
Ray: “They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.”
So, if God is “determining” events of the future then does it (?) go to say that the “choices” we make are also “pre-determined” by God? If so, then where does that leave the “choice”? A clear matter?, not necessarily. But the “choice” appears to clearly rule out “free-will”.
Honestly, and again, it’s a difficult subject for me and apparently others which is why I stated to those that readily understand they are blessed indeed. Even though a dictionary can define the words, only God grants the wisdom to understand. And again for those who understand they have been truly blessed. But for those of us, I’m speaking mainly to myself, that don’t quite yet “get it” in cement fashion this mountain of challenge continues to loom, a sure witness that God is in control even of understanding.
That’s all I was attempting. Not picking. Just hoping to help for Roy or anyone else who may yet to understand. But as far as quoting Ray, well, that happens all day long here on this forum as I’m sure many other events not on this forum.
Gary
--- End quote ---
Astrapho:
--- Quote ---This is the Great Enigma of Life. The fact that we do things against our will every day is proof positive that our wills are not "free". But we naturally are prideful, self-righteous creatures, who want to believe that we are in control, even when it's obvious that we are not. And yes God created us this way. And only God can open a person's eyes so that they can SEE
--- End quote ---
AMEN! That pretty much nails it. ;D
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