Question: How can a man go against God's will?

[mhykx]

As I was looking for the answer to the above question, I went across to a thread where someone posted the same question which was not answered by the community.  Here it is:

Hi everyone,

Am I missing something, I thought Ray's stance on man's free will was that man could only do what God wills.  How can "most christians" go against God's will? 

Somebody please help me with this cause I am completely confused.

feat

Thanks for everyone's time!

-Mike

[aqrinc]

Hi Mike,

At last an easy one to answer, here is how Ray explains your answer best

Excerpt from: The Lake of Fire - Part 15  http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

Installment XV - Part A

The Myth of Free-Will Exposed


Free will? Where?

James certainly agrees with Scripture and Science that man has the ability "to will." But he also fully recognizes that there are two things that constantly oppose and change the will of man, so that it cannot be said that the will is free to will its own destiny for even a day or an hour.

What are these two factors over which man has absolutely no control whatsoever?

1. Factor number one--CIRCUMSTANCES: What did the Holy Spirit of God inspire (cause?) James to explain as a major factor in what determines the true outcome of man's will? Answer: "Whereas you know not what shall be on the morrow."

God changes the minds and wills of mankind around the world, a billion times a minute, through circumstances that "you know not" are actually the cause of your choices and your changed choices. We are often if not most of the time completely unaware of what actually caused us to do or say or think as we do.

How did all the disciples will to remain loyal to Jesus no matter what, at one moment in time, and in the next moment in time, they all changed their will to forsake Him? What changed their wills? Circumstances. One moment they were at ease and safe in the upper room, and at a later moment they were in the garden surrounded by Roman Soldiers! Fear was the circumstance that caused their (un-free) wills to change.

So it was the presence of certain circumstances that caused the disciples to will as they did. But what caused the circumstances to be as they were to ensure that they would will appropriately to fulfill Christ's prophecy concerning their denying and forsaking Him?

2. Factor number two—GOD'S WILL: Notice the second thing that the Holy Spirit inspired James to write regarding what will or will not happen on any given day to any given person. "...if the Lord will..."

Who was in charge of all these circumstances, which caused the disciples to change their wills? Why God, of course. They did not want to change their wills. They did not desire to deny their Lord and Saviour. They did not wish to make liars and fools of themselves. They did not want to be shown that they were all cowards. Well then, why did they change their wills if they did not wish to change their wills? Were they free to not change their wills? No, they were not free.

The fear inside of them caused and made (and yes, FORCED, if you will) them to change their will. And Jesus Himself told them that they would change their wills, so how pray tell could it have been otherwise? Yet I suppose that some are so spiritually stubborn that they will still insist that the apostles did not need to change their wills, that their wills were yet free to stay loyal in the face of these fearful circumstances.

When we argue with God like this, we demean Him. God has a plan, and God brings about His plan. God is not stupid. God knows exactly how to cause man (all mankind) to do exactly as He plans for them to do.

DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN GOD'S STATED WILL AND HIS PLAN OR INTENTIONS

Few students of the Scriptures have learned the truth regarding God's stated WILL and His PLAN or INTENTIONS. They are clearly not one and the same. They operate completely differently for different purposes.

First we should understand that God's will is used both as a noun and a verb. As a noun, God's will is virtually synonymous with His GOAL. It is usually not too hard to tell in Scripture whether the word "will" is used as a noun or a verb. In the Scripture we just used to show that things only happen "if God will," it is used as a verb. And whenever God uses His will as a verb, then it absolutely will be fulfilled and carried out at the time and place that He wills it.

If, however, God is speaking of His will as a noun, meaning His ultimate goal, then it does not immediately come about in totality at the place and time that He states it. A perfect example of God's will as a noun and it not coming to total fruition at the place and time stated, is in what is popularly called "The Lord's Prayer."

"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heave" (Matt. 6:9-10).

I don't think too many would argue that God's kingdom and His will has not totally come to this earth as it is in heaven. This is a goal—it will happen, just not at this time. And so man's will is almost always at variance with God's stated will as His ultimate goal for the human race. But God's day-to-day willing of events to carrying out His plan is never ever contradicted or thwarted by puny man. Paul understood this principle perfectly.

george.

[mhykx]

If what we are to choose is the only choice (whether the result will be bad or good) then technically there isn't any wrong choice.  When the outcome is bad, carnal mind tend to judge that what is chosen is wrong.  But in God's infinte mind, every choice human make is for his own good because God foreknew/preordained/predestined (<-- sorry about this, I still can't figure their differences) his fate/destiny.  Is this correct?

[mhykx]

Hi George,

Thanks for the quick reply.  Here is a follow-up question.

In http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html - The Myth of Free-Will Exposed Part A

To the question, "...who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

Everyone resisted?  Go against?  How?

Thanks again for your time!

-Mike

[aqrinc]

Hi Mike,

Read this thread: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9814.0.html

It was just closed today, but the answers are in there already.

george.

[Samson]

If what we are to choose is the only choice (whether the result will be bad or good) then technically there isn't any wrong choice.  When the outcome is bad, carnal mind tend to judge that what is chosen is wrong.  But in God's infinte mind, every choice human make is for his own good because God foreknew/preordained/predestined (<-- sorry about this, I still can't figure their differences) his fate/destiny.  Is this correct?

Hello,

        Now that is an excellent question, it definitely conveys a thinking mind. This Cause/Effect relationship, Choices
        and the consequences, the whole Free Will type issue can get us into some deep thinking. I'm not going to
        search into our Ray archives at this time, I'll leave that for someone else. However, I'll give some input based
        on what I've read from Ray's articles.

        We make choices, all of those choices have consequences, whether initially with good results or bad results.
        Every choice will ultimately somewhere down the line result in our good. It could be in that we learn a lesson
        from this choice. We suffer from making bad choices, but eventually we learn something for our own good.
        The benefit we receive from whatever choice we make, may not be realized in this Age(Our Lifetime).

        We all experience many Evil things in Life, sometimes as a result of our choices or due to someone Else's.
        God will take the Evil things we experience and it will be for our good, whether a chastening, discipline or
        a refinement. It's all a process in being created in God's image, Spiritually speaking, by making choices and
        suffering the consequences, experiencing the contrasts presented by Good and Evil, Joy and sorrow, pain
        and pleasure, Hot and Cold. An example might be: We have a relative that says things that incur our anger,but
        eventually we might learn that our choice to respond by flying off the handle leads to undesirable consequences
        we eventually learn to either keep quiet, letting it go, in this way we experience better results and maybe
        develop the quality of humility.

                                          That's all for now, I'm sure others will provide some Scriptures and quotes from
                                          Ray's Free Will Articles to assist you much more fully.

                                             Kind Regards, Samson.

[aqrinc]

Hi George,

Thanks for the quick reply.  Here is a follow-up question.

In http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html - The Myth of Free-Will Exposed Part A

To the question, "...who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

Everyone resisted?  Go against?  How?

Thanks again for your time!

-Mike

Two Scripture that have your answer, 1. Who has gone back? Everyone. 2. Who has gone out of the way? All.

Psa 53:3 (KJV)
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:12 (KJV)
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

george.

[Marky Mark]

Since there has been a lot of intrest of late on this free will and choice thing that we all seem to enjoy posting about I thought it relevant to post this email to Ray on the subject.I hope nobody minds, but it super informative to say the least.

Enjoy and God Bless.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html


Dear Ray,

I want to start by thanking you for the effort you have put forth in a most revealing work.   It has enlightened me tremendously.   You are someone whom takes life seriously as I and we both share a common pain.  For my daughter is in a coma, and like many different pain in this life, having been in this dilemma yourself, we can both sympathize with each other with a certain connection I believe.  So I thank you deeply and want to let you know your effort have not been in vain.   Someone out there has ears to hear.  You've ask " let me know", so I am doing so.

I hope that my opening statements have set a positive stage and  I seriously mean those all these words.  I take the time to write for the soul purpose of edification and weather you respond or not is irrelevant.  I believe you to be as you present yourself to be, a man of God, who I believe He is using in a very special way.  Thus,  you should know my intentions are honest and sincere, for truly a righteous man is not easily offended.

I have read most of your papers and have visited your site and chat room.  I thought to myself before hand I must know whom this person is and those around him, with whom my mind and heart agree with so much.  For I find very little to disagree with and am suprise of how you have put your words together so sensibly.  I have been riveted to your papers in awe and only wish I had the time to have put things together as you have.   It is an honor.  It is also because I am half way thru on a book I am writing which is as controversial as it can get, understanding the truth will always go against the common grain.  I have decided to use some of your work for this book and want to inform you of my such actions.  I also am putting forth my constructive criticism on certain points of reasoning which many are questioning as I notice in many of your emails.   Please do not confuse me with the many uncalled for retorics statements from the untrained mind whom taunt you constantly.  I have nothing to gain with such fruitless attempts, because it is the Creator YHWH whom I seek to glorify.

For starter your write up on tithing is phenomenal, outstanding and to the point, thank you. I would like to say so much but I will address your article on Free Will.  Initially I did not understand your "Free Will" concept in the manner in which you presented it.   After further consideration I believe I do.  For I take it even further and realize the very computer I am using emanated from Him.  For all of creation could have come from nowhere else but from Him the source of all.  So it is fair to conclude all is of Him good, evil, the very things our dreams are made of.  But I will asked you why are people questioning your Free Will explanation Ray?  After closely examination I see the conflicting contradictions which perhaps you don't realize.  Heres the scenario you present in attempting to dissect and explain Gods sovereignty over man.  The red is you:

Seriously, if anyone can explain how someone can freely choose a course of action, [1] independent of God, or [2] bring about any course of action at a time other than preappointed by God, please drop me an email. I will now hold my breath....

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God [as you have just suggested] for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPS HE ANY MAN: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn way of H-I-S O-W-N LUST, and enticed. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin...." (James 1:13-15). (Absolutely true Ray)

God does NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN!!! I have stated this over and over and over and over again, and yet, I get email after email suggesting that I teach that "GOD MAKES AND FORCE MEN TO SIN." I have never taught or even though such a thing. God made man SPIRITUALLY WE AK. So weak that he cannot resist the pulls of his own carnal nature. Man volunteers to sin, God does not FORCE him to sin. And it is not a sin on God's part for making man weak, because He has also a plan to MAKE HIM SPIRITUALLY STRONG, and with God the end ALWAYS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. In judgment, God will RIGHT EVERY WRONG. The "so-called" innocent children He had killed in wars (children are innocent Ray,but become casualty of man's own devises)

Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart,
(see sinning is a willed choice, correct ?)
The answer lies in the HEART of mankind. God said that He would punish “the fruit of his ARROGANT HEART�


The Bible doesn't say that man doesn't have a HEART. It doesn't say that he doesn't have a MIND. It doesn't say that he cant THINK. It doesn’t say he can’t make. It doesn’t say he doesn’t have a WILL. It doesn’t  CHOICES. say he can’t carry out his will through his thoughts, choices, planning, action, and deeds. What it does say is that: MAN IS NOT A GOD WHO CAN DO THESE THINGS INDEPENDENTLY AND FREELY FROM THE INTENTIONS AND PURPOSE OF HIS CREATOR!! TH AT’S what the Bible really says! (so is man's will based on predestined choices?)

Dear Chris: You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES! (is it not God who predestined this choice?)
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, (is it not God who predestined this choice.  What causes the action, what is in man's heart or the influence?)even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our c ontrol, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... (Contradiction) BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.  (so then it is us making the choice, or God's predestination at work?)


But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! (so it is not God who has predestined this choice?)

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO.(what are you saying by voluntarily) And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.  (This shows we have a certain free will to choose from the causes presented but God did not predestined this choice, correct?)


He brings about everything only at its precise "APPOINTED SEASON AND TIME.". Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME

Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and predetermined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word

You cut off the every spiritual channels by which you could spiritually grow. 8. You establish and worship what is Scripturally known as "an idol of the heart." 9. You recreate th e God of your heart into that of a man who possesses human limitations. 10. You actually loose respect for a Saviour Who needs your personal assistance and your human contribution in order for God to save you. But yes, even all of these things listed are all according to God’s foreordained purpose( Is it not God who predestined these things to occurred at their appointed time?)

God will either cause you to accept these truths at this "appointed tim e" in your life, or He will cause you to reject these truths at this "appointed time" (man is born spiritually blinded until God opens his mind.  I've seen many use this tactic to belittle the babes in Christ.  Are we not to be teachers?  Did not the Ethiopian on the road ask to be taught the words he didn't understand?  Was not the centurion sent to one of the Apostle to be taught the word?  Are we not then to teach those seeking to understand for God is moving them, not with just mere words..)

Everyone who insists that he lives his life according to his own independent of God, free will choices, is "haughty and arrogant

even though His method may seem silly to many: "...it pleased G od by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE" (I Cor. 1:21). TIS TRUE: OUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED Continuing in Ecc. 3:2: "A time [an 'APPOINTED time'] to be born, and a time [an 'APPOINTED time] to die

You might suggest that you will commit suicide and shorten your life. How silly-how totally unscriptural. No one can commit suicide unless and until the "appointed time" that God has foreordained that you commit suicide, if indeed God has ordained such a thing for you (what happened to cause and effect and then the choice?)


IF mankind had a free will to do things that only they desired to do, at the time that only they desired to do them, then there would be billions upon billions of additions a nd deletions to God’s original plan (do we have desires of the heart or not which drives us? The pull of the flesh.)

Not only do we all tear our pants or tear our shirt at some time or another, but, there is actually a God-appointed time for these things to happen. (With all due respect, this is very outlandish)

If you can’t accept this truth and repent of your egotistical, self worth, and self superiority, thinking that you can thwart the very i ntentions of God’s Own will any time you desire, then you too will be PUNISHED for your stout and arrogant heart (we can't accept the truth because He doesn't let us and predestined all we do, yet it is our ego which makes us choose against His will.  This is contradictory)

To compare a computer with a human being is a stretch of the imagination at attempting to dissect God's sovereignty over man which our puny mind cannot comprehend.  A computer does not make choices of its own volition, man does.  Computers follow a systematic pattern of sequences controlled by on and off switches steered by the programer.  It does not make "choices" of its own.  A human does make  choices of his own volition which are voluntary logical calculated base on desires and reason.   A human is driven by his innate desires as created.  But the law of right and wrong at a human level is built in us which serves to give us that "free will", within the confine of the creation, which we ultimately make on our own for which we are then held accountable for.   Israel was admonished to choose life because she had the ability to respond on her own. The fall of man was indeed not an accident, it was a choice of the heart.  An accident is spontaneous, a cause of an action not premeditated.   A person is not predestined to have an accident and break an arm at a specific time of his or her life.  But God will use a bad thing for good for those who love Him.  He also causes things to move accordingly to His plan of salvation individually and as a whole.    Habakah raises his concern of all that took place around him but God answered " I know its looks gleam son but I will work a work that you would not believe if I told you".   He confussed the langua ges because he saw where man was going and that nothing he set out to do he would not accomplish.  He bassically stagnated their progress as a society, from advancing too fast as a creation.   We can see where he has allowed man to progress today in technology and all areas of life because the time has come for the culmination of all things.  God does not go around directing people to kill each other generally speaking, or a man to rape a 10 year old at an appointed time, but nothing is hidden from Him for He sees it all.  And yes He does govern among man, chooses leadership, puts cops in the street and does cause war as He deem necessary to fulfill his plans.  But he also prevents man from destroying himself with the technology he now as acquired.

God takes responsiblity for all things in that at the end He will see that it conclude to the desire of His heart.   God did guided the crucification of His son but did not make the young ma n walk away from Christ, at an appointed time, when he was told to sell everything he had and follow him .  Why do some volunteers to follow that path of righteousness such as you and I perhaps?  Because we choose to after hearing the truth  from our hearts. Something inside each of us in our heart makes that difference to God which He only knows for He can read the spirit of a man of whom we really are.  Nevertheless He breaks us down till all we do is grasp for breath doesn't He. What made David be a man after God's own heart?   Was a fasting that God wanted?  No.  It was a contrite heart.  And correctly some will be purged greater than others to remove their stubbornness, until they reaching rock bottom where they will find humility and choose Gods will instead.  But it will eventually be a collaboration of the human will submitting to the will of the Creator.  Man will come to a point of realization that Gods way is the bes t way to happiness.

I am motivated to write and express the above to you and hope you receive it with a grain of salt.  It is not malintented.  But I saw how so many on your chat room seem to be going to and fro and grasping at this Free Will thing.  They seem to be saying okay so what is going to happen next.  I feel a responsibility to inform you of your possible err.  But I wont burden you further.  We know in part and prophecy in part until Yahsuah's return.
We are all being made in His Image for even His name is written with our bodies.

Shalom
WHIRLWIND
                 

Dear Whirlwind:

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,

Ray

« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 12:38:31 AM by Kat » 

[mharrell08]

FYI: There have been 3 threads started within the last 24 hours regarding this subject...therefore, I have merged these all into one thread.

This is not a knock on anyone (as they all have been very helpful to many), but this way, all the information is in one location and makes it more user friendly when seeking an answer.


Thanks,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi mhykx,

I found this bit from the 'Who and what is Jesus' transcript and thought it might help.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4472.0 ------------------

So God makes you live this life.  He makes you do all this, HE MAKES YOU DO IT.  But not against your will.  He puts you in circumstances and that's the only way you can go.  The ONLY way!

You think, 'I shouldn't have done this or that.'  That's right you should think that way.  You should think that... 'I shouldn't have done that,' because then you're learning.
 
When you learn, you will then put that into practice.  Because God doesn't have you learn things so you can't put them into practice.  He has you learn things so you CAN put them into practice.  But the only way you will learn them, is if you see how stupid it was, and you say if I had it to do over, I wouldn't have done that.  So YOU HAD TO DO THEM!  Because that lead to a lot of trouble and pain and sorrow.  But did you learn your lesson?  'Well yea.'  Then don't do it again okay, now their back on track.

But the whole human race does not comprehend that they do not have free-will.  They have a will based on everything that everything makes them do.  That's their 'free' will.

When you think about this you can go crazy, because the whole thing is bizarre.
---------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Amrhrasach]

If what we are to choose is the only choice (whether the result will be bad or good) then technically there isn't any wrong choice.  When the outcome is bad, carnal mind tend to judge that what is chosen is wrong.  But in God's infinte mind, every choice human make is for his own good because God foreknew/preordained/predestined (<-- sorry about this, I still can't figure their differences) his fate/destiny.  Is this correct?

Hello,

        Now that is an excellent question, it definitely conveys a thinking mind. This Cause/Effect relationship, Choices
        and the consequences, the whole Free Will type issue can get us into some deep thinking. I'm not going to
        search into our Ray archives at this time, I'll leave that for someone else. However, I'll give some input based
        on what I've read from Ray's articles.

        We make choices, all of those choices have consequences, whether initially with good results or bad results.
        Every choice will ultimately somewhere down the line result in our good. It could be in that we learn a lesson
        from this choice. We suffer from making bad choices, but eventually we learn something for our own good.
        The benefit we receive from whatever choice we make, may not be realized in this Age(Our Lifetime).

        We all experience many Evil things in Life, sometimes as a result of our choices or due to someone Else's.
        God will take the Evil things we experience and it will be for our good, whether a chastening, discipline or
        a refinement. It's all a process in being created in God's image, Spiritually speaking, by making choices and
        suffering the consequences, experiencing the contrasts presented by Good and Evil, Joy and sorrow, pain
        and pleasure, Hot and Cold. An example might be: We have a relative that says things that incur our anger,but
        eventually we might learn that our choice to respond by flying off the handle leads to undesirable consequences
        we eventually learn to either keep quiet, letting it go, in this way we experience better results and maybe
        develop the quality of humility.

                                          That's all for now, I'm sure others will provide some Scriptures and quotes from
                                          Ray's Free Will Articles to assist you much more fully.

                                             Kind Regards, Samson.

A thinking response indeed.  And the underlined part, in my opinion, is full of reasoning and faith.  "Benefit" is wisdom.   Modern microwave "thinking" demands entitlement NOW.  FAITH rests on assurance that the benefit may not yet come for some time, but it WILL come.   To me, that is down to the core digging for the wisdom and understanding and being fed with the meat of faith from God that God indeed prevails, in the end.  Walking the walk.   Not simply chalking it up with just meaningless words without the faith.

A star and mark of excellence in my book Samson.  FWIW.

Gary

[Samson]

If what we are to choose is the only choice (whether the result will be bad or good) then technically there isn't any wrong choice.  When the outcome is bad, carnal mind tend to judge that what is chosen is wrong.  But in God's infinte mind, every choice human make is for his own good because God foreknew/preordained/predestined (<-- sorry about this, I still can't figure their differences) his fate/destiny.  Is this correct?

Hello,

        Now that is an excellent question, it definitely conveys a thinking mind. This Cause/Effect relationship, Choices
        and the consequences, the whole Free Will type issue can get us into some deep thinking. I'm not going to
        search into our Ray archives at this time, I'll leave that for someone else. However, I'll give some input based
        on what I've read from Ray's articles.

        We make choices, all of those choices have consequences, whether initially with good results or bad results.
        Every choice will ultimately somewhere down the line result in our good. It could be in that we learn a lesson
        from this choice. We suffer from making bad choices, but eventually we learn something for our own good.
        The benefit we receive from whatever choice we make, may not be realized in this Age(Our Lifetime).

        We all experience many Evil things in Life, sometimes as a result of our choices or due to someone Else's.
        God will take the Evil things we experience and it will be for our good, whether a chastening, discipline or
        a refinement. It's all a process in being created in God's image, Spiritually speaking, by making choices and
        suffering the consequences, experiencing the contrasts presented by Good and Evil, Joy and sorrow, pain
        and pleasure, Hot and Cold. An example might be: We have a relative that says things that incur our anger,but
        eventually we might learn that our choice to respond by flying off the handle leads to undesirable consequences
        we eventually learn to either keep quiet, letting it go, in this way we experience better results and maybe
        develop the quality of humility.

                                          That's all for now, I'm sure others will provide some Scriptures and quotes from
                                          Ray's Free Will Articles to assist you much more fully.

                                             Kind Regards, Samson.

A thinking response indeed.  And the underlined part, in my opinion, is full of reasoning and faith.  "Benefit" is wisdom.   Modern microwave "thinking" demands entitlement NOW.  FAITH rests on assurance that the benefit may not yet come for some time, but it WILL come.   To me, that is down to the core digging for the wisdom and understanding and being fed with the meat of faith from God that God indeed prevails, in the end.  Walking the walk.   Not simply chalking it up with just meaningless words without the faith.

A star and mark of excellence in my book Samson.  FWIW.

Gary

Thanks Gary,

                   Actually, I thought that I might get toasted alittle for my response, mainly because when
                   first seeing this Thread last night, I was tired and even though I Love Ray's Free Will Articles,
                   they are my favorites of his, admittedly I was too tired and lazy to search, so instead, I just
                   winged it, figuring some of the other Forum members would elaborate on pertinent Scriptures
                   and details from Ray's Free Will Articles. Whenever I'm feeling powerless, hopeless and that
                   sorta depressed feeling of " I wish my suffering and dealing with this life would end ", I revert
                   to reviewing and listening to Ray's Free Will Articles.

                                                      Kind Regards, Samson.

[mhykx]

Hi guys!

The reason I was tempted to start another thread closely related to the one that was closed recently is that I don't feel that the question was answered.  I read most of the email-replies (from Ray) you have posted but I don't see the answer yet.  Forgive me if I am slow to comprehend.

What I understood about having no free will is that God is the One that will and do for us (as in all mankind) for our benefit.  And I thought it is wonderful and liberating for I will no longer depend on my own strength.  But then why is it said that EVERYONE RESISTED GOD'S WILL?  HOW DOES ONE RESIST THE FATHER'S WILL?

Thanks again everyone!
-Mike

[EKnight]

Romans 9:

18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

The bold in the above verse appears to be a rhetorical question. And the answer is, don't questions God's ways. We don't know the mind of God but we have faith and hope and trust in God's plan.  If we knew every reason and every purpose under the sun, then there would be no need for faith.

I think that when Ray said "everyone" has resisted God's will, he may have been referring to sinning in the sense that we disobey God.  Ray goes on to clarify by stating no one has resisted God's purpose (or plan).

Eileen

[Ninny]

Hi Mike,
It's kind of strange, but somehow I understand the "free will" thing. I don't know how I understand it at all! I understood or at least believed it right off the bat 3 years ago when I first read it! Maybe God has just cushioned my simple mind against thinking too deeply about it! I can't explain it too well to other people! I started a reply yesterday to the other thread, but deleted it because it just didn't sound like the answer to anyone's question!

I can say that if you observe your children it's kind of like how God deals with us, we know that if a baby pulls up to something, for the first few times he's going to fall! We didn't make him fall even though we let him pull up and we KNEW he would fall! He has to decide on his own to pull up and he has to do it in order to grow stronger and learn how to walk. Whether it's something good or bad we have to experience some things to live and grow. I can think of hundreds of examples taken from the way we deal with our children that show how God deals with ME! I know that's just too simple, I'm sorry...This is just the way I see it...
Kathy

[Vangie]

Question:  How can a man go against God's will?

He can't.  He just thinks he can.  (until he's led to understand the truth of God's sovereignty--either in this age or the next).

[Roy Martin]

Circumstances and choice kept me for most of my like not believing in God. Circumstance and choice made me fall on my face and cry out to God. Circumstance and choice led me away from God several times. Circumstance and choice led me back to God each time with more faith and understanding of how God works in my life.
We call it choice, and it is, but as I look back on my entire life, I can see that it was destiny. None of the choices I mentioned above were free choice. One of those choices a few years ago was to give up on God and go back to growing marijuana of which had always made me lots of money. I was one of the best. I moved out of State and started to do my thing. Disease and bugs and everything that could happen to marijuana plants happened. Nothing I tried would work. It was supernatural. During this whole time, a year, I couldn't get God off my mind. Finally I'm crying out to God again as he draws me back even more closer. Well I thought I learned my lesson about doing it my way but again I gave up on God to help me get my business going, so I grew some marijuana plants, but this time I just wanted a company truck, just a few plants for that. This time the plants thrived. I bought a good truck. It ran great, then w/o notice, the motor went out. I put a new engine in it that cost $4000. and a few months later it went out, the transmission went out. The mechanics were baffled, but I wasn't, because I knew exactly what happened. It was God. Another lesson for the good. It was all destined choices. What else could it be. Was it against Gods will? Yes, but it seems that it was His will that I go against His will to draw me closer to Him.
When the people in the desert with Moses went against Gods will, He killed them for their choice. The dead learned nothing because their dead, but what did it teach those that were left? God has a reason for everything. It seems bad that He killed those people, but they will still be in heaven after the LOF.
I keep wanting to make a choice to not think about this choice thing, but it just keeps coming back. It really doesn't seem that important such as the choice for what kind of ice cream and how it affects me spiritually. Well it is a desire of the flesh and its not good for me.
  I just cant see where anything is free by looking at the way God has worked in my life. A choice is a choice, but it appears that choice means or is destiny at the same time.
This is just my observation of all the facts. All of my choices were steps to teach and draw me to God and know Him, but how can I call them my choices?
How many times is choice mentioned in the bible? It doesn't matter because all is of God. Is it just one of the mysteries we are not to know yet? The thing Im sure of is that we dont have free will or free choice.

Peace
Roy

[mharrell08]

Was it against God will? Yes, but it seems that it was His will that I go against His will to draw me closer to Him.

Exactly...this is a spiritual truth that many have not been given to understand yet.

Excerpt from Lake of Fire #15-A (http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html):

WHO HAS RESISTED GOD'S WILL?

So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isn't fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place? The Apostle Paul got the same carnal-minded criticisms of God's plan:

"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—'resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention']?" (Rom. 9:19).

This is an amazing Scripture. This Scripture shows the difference in attitude between those who understand God's plan and will and those who do not.

After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh up for a specific purpose in God's plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "...who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "...who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God's plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God's will, will be done in His time.

So back to Paul's questioners: If God causes us to do what we do, and no one ever has or ever can go against or resist that purpose of God, why does He blame us when we sin? And again, I will let Paul answer, since the question was directed to him. But you know what? Paul does not even deign to answer their question. That's right, Paul proposes the question and then does not directly answer it. He considers the very question itself too demeaning, if not blasphemous to answer. Instead He says this:

"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that's us] say to Him that formed it, [that's GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).


Marques

[Marky Mark]

Once puny O man comes to that point of Spiritual discernment, that only God can reveal, then, and only then, can that O man in all of us begin to understand the glorious plan and purpose of our Almighty Father,we are clay.        God does not lie.

All Praise and Glory to Our Father,in Christ Jesus Name...


Peace...Mark

[Amrhrasach]

Once puny O man comes to that point of Spiritual discernment, that only God can reveal, then, and only then, can that O man in all of us begin to understand the glorious plan and purpose of our Almighty Father,we are clay.        God does not lie.

All Praise and Glory to Our Father,in Christ Jesus Name...


Peace...Mark

And when that "beginning" to understand comes other things (understandings) begin also, perhaps slowly or even quickly, to fall into their proper place of understanding also.   Hard to pinpoint the "all other" that I speak of but doors and windows begin to open.  Sometimes a slow cracking open of a window, sometimes all the way open. 

But clearly that "we are clay", in my opinion, is a pre-requisite humility lesson.      Otherwise we attempt to serve two masters.

Gary