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Author Topic: Ecc 9:5 vs-  (Read 5881 times)

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Mando

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Ecc 9:5 vs-
« on: April 23, 2009, 05:39:37 AM »

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

here are some verses that Christiandom uses to say that there is "fully conscious" in Sheol........

Isa 14:9  Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10  All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?

Eze 32:21  The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.

Jon 2:2  And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.

according to Ecc 9:5, there is NOTHING going on in Sheol. But in Isa. 14:9-10 and Eze 32:21 and Jon 2:2, it looks like there's some action going on.
 
if anyone can give me an explanation or lead me to any of Ray's teaching that touch these verses.
                    
                                 Thanks
                                        Mando
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 05:49:22 AM by Mando »
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mharrell08

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2009, 09:41:10 AM »

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

here are some verses that Christiandom uses to say that there is "fully conscious" in Sheol........

Isa 14:9  Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10  All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?

Eze 32:21  The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.

Jon 2:2  And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.

according to Ecc 9:5, there is NOTHING going on in Sheol. But in Isa. 14:9-10 and Eze 32:21 and Jon 2:2, it looks like there's some action going on.
 
if anyone can give me an explanation or lead me to any of Ray's teaching that touch these verses.
                    
                                 Thanks
                                        Mando


FYI: 'An Encouraging Thought about Death' (http://bible-truths.com/death.htm)


Marques
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Marky Mark

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2009, 11:14:43 AM »

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

here are some verses that Christiandom uses to say that there is "fully conscious" in Sheol........

Isa 14:9  Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10  All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?

Eze 32:21  The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.

Jon 2:2  And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.

according to Ecc 9:5, there is NOTHING going on in Sheol. But in Isa. 14:9-10 and Eze 32:21 and Jon 2:2, it looks like there's some action going on.
 
if anyone can give me an explanation or lead me to any of Ray's teaching that touch these verses.
                    
                                 Thanks
                                        Mando


Email to Ray. Hope it helps.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3121.0.html

If you believe that life and consciousness do not exist after death according to Ecclesiastes 9:5 how would you explain Isa. 14:9-11 Ezek: 32:21and Rev.6:9-11, comparing scripture with scripture. God Bless Eddie
    

    Dear Eddie:
    Some things can be "explained," but may not be able to be "proved." I can tell you that all of these Scriptures are in "figurative" rather than "literal" language, but that does not means that you will believe me, anymore than when I showed "plucking out one's eye or cutting of one's hand" in accordance with Christ's admonition concerning offensive sins, was believed by those who read it. I received comments that these admonitions were indeed LITERAL, even though they conceded that we are not to LITERALLY pluck out our physical eyes, etc.
    
    How, for example does "pomp" go to the grave (or sheol)? It is, of course, FIGURATIVE. If these verses in figurative language are literal, then we must concede that such verses as Gen. 4:10 are literal:  "...the VOICE of your brother's BLOOD cries unto Me from the ground."  Someone might actually claim that blood is immortal, and although spilled on the ground, and completely dried up, nonetheless, is still alive and......AND POSSESSES VOCAL CORDS AND CAN SPEAK!!
    
    God be with you,
    Ray




Peace...Mark
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Kat

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2009, 12:08:18 PM »


Hi Mando,

Jonah 2:2  And he said:
       "I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction,
       And He answered me.
       "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
       And You heard my voice.

This is Jonah and he is comparing being in the fishes belly to being in the grave.  I think unless God saves him it actually would be his grave.

Eze 32:21  The strong among the mighty
       Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell
       With those who help him:
       "They have gone down,
       They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.'

As the email that Mark pointed out this verse in Ezekiel would be 'figurative.'   It's not a real conversation.

Isa 14:9  Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
v. 10  All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?

Chapter 14 in Isaiah seem to be referring to the time when Christ will be ruling the earth.  Verse 9 I think is speaking of the resurrection of the dead, "Sheol (grave) from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming."  Indeed all of the former "kings of the nations" will be made weak when Christ is ruling the earth.

Just thought I would give you my perspective on this, hope it was helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Jam 4:14 " whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

EKnight

  • Guest
Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2009, 01:35:10 PM »

Kat,

Great commentary.  I kept reading the whole chapters of each of these verses and wasn't quite sure of what I was reading.  Like I have said in another thread, it is hard for me to see "Christ" in the OT sometimes.  Regarding Isa 14:9,  I was certain it was speaking of Christ so it's good to have it confirmed and I'm glad I was able to see this on my own first.

I hope Mando can see this truth.  When a verse like Ecc 9:5 is so clear cut, and all God's words are true, you know that if you see another verse that appears to contradict, there has to be an explanation.  I find that the explanations are almost always because the passages are being read too literally. Once read figuratively or metaphorically, things become clear and harmonic.

Eileen
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daywalker

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2009, 06:03:21 PM »

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

here are some verses that Christiandom uses to say that there is "fully conscious" in Sheol........

Isa 14:9  Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10  All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?

Eze 32:21  The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.

Jon 2:2  And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.

according to Ecc 9:5, there is NOTHING going on in Sheol. But in Isa. 14:9-10 and Eze 32:21 and Jon 2:2, it looks like there's some action going on.
 
if anyone can give me an explanation or lead me to any of Ray's teaching that touch these verses.
                    
                                 Thanks
                                        Mando


- The first problem is that the Church has gotten far too comfortable with teaching Bible Contradictions. They won't openly admit that it contradicts, but their doctrines prove that they believe that it does.

- The verses from Ezekiel and Isaiah are prophecies. They are visions, they are figurative, not literal events. The entire Book of Revelations is a prophecy from a vision. The Church has no concept of figurative speech; they need to go back to Grade School???

- The verse in Jonah is from when Jonah was in the belly of the giant fish. Unless all wicked people will live eternally in the belly of a super-gigantic fish  :o, then this has nothing to do with Sheol/Hell... literally...


Hope that helps, friend.

- Daywalker.  8)
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Mando

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2009, 08:45:46 PM »

thanks for all your replies. I knew I  would get much feedback. We always need to question everything and this is just one example of me doing so. Thanks again.
                                                                         respectfully
                                                                               Mando
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Akira329

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2009, 09:16:43 PM »

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

here are some verses that Christiandom uses to say that there is "fully conscious" in Sheol........

Isa 14:9  Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10  All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?

Eze 32:21  The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.

Jon 2:2  And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.

according to Ecc 9:5, there is NOTHING going on in Sheol. But in Isa. 14:9-10 and Eze 32:21 and Jon 2:2, it looks like there's some action going on.
 
if anyone can give me an explanation or lead me to any of Ray's teaching that touch these verses.
                    
                                 Thanks
                                        Mando


- The first problem is that the Church has gotten far too comfortable with teaching Bible Contradictions. They won't openly admit that it contradicts, but their doctrines prove that they believe that it does.

- The verses from Ezekiel and Isaiah are prophecies. They are visions, they are figurative, not literal events. The entire Book of Revelations is a prophecy from a vision. The Church has no concept of figurative speech; they need to go back to Grade School???

- The verse in Jonah is from when Jonah was in the belly of the giant fish. Unless all wicked people will live eternally in the belly of a super-gigantic fish  :o, then this has nothing to do with Sheol/Hell... literally...


Hope that helps, friend.

- Daywalker.  8)

I agree Daywalker!!
The first installment of the lake of fire series is such a refresher on the figures of speech.
One of the reasons the KJV translation is so popular, its so beautifully written.

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2009, 02:30:10 PM »

I agree Daywalker!!
The first installment of the lake of fire series is such a refresher on the figures of speech.
One of the reasons the KJV translation is so popular, its so beautifully written.

Antaiwan

Tis true! It is a beautiful, poetic translation. It's just unfortunate that there are a few verses that have been so badly translated, that the beauty of God's Word is smothered. One great example is in:

Psalms 139:7-8:
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. [King James]


But in all fairness, if the English word "hell' carried the same meaning now, as it did 300 years ago, [to conceal, a covering] then it would remain it's prophetic beauty...

Here's a better translation that restores it:

Whither could I go from Your spirit, And whither could I run away from Your presence? If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold, You are there." [Concordant]


Simply put, no matter where you go, no matter what happens, GOD IS RIGHT THERE WITH YOU. God is Everywhere!  ;D


...and that, my friends, is BEAUTIFUL

- Daywalker.  8)
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Akira329

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2009, 05:22:34 PM »

I agree Daywalker!!
The first installment of the lake of fire series is such a refresher on the figures of speech.
One of the reasons the KJV translation is so popular, its so beautifully written.

Antaiwan

Tis true! It is a beautiful, poetic translation. It's just unfortunate that there are a few verses that have been so badly translated, that the beauty of God's Word is smothered. One great example is in:

Psalms 139:7-8:
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. [King James]


But in all fairness, if the English word "hell' carried the same meaning now, as it did 300 years ago, [to conceal, a covering] then it would remain it's prophetic beauty...

Here's a better translation that restores it:

Whither could I go from Your spirit, And whither could I run away from Your presence? If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold, You are there." [Concordant]


Simply put, no matter where you go, no matter what happens, GOD IS RIGHT THERE WITH YOU. God is Everywhere!  ;D


...and that, my friends, is BEAUTIFUL

- Daywalker.  8)

Wonderful example!!!

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

gmik

  • Guest
Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2009, 11:33:23 PM »

I have enjoyed this thread...but I have an itsy bitsy question.....

Ahem...Can God actually be in the unseen w/ us?  Why would He be if our spirit goes back to Him?

Or can half a verse be literal and half a verse be spiritual?

I agree that is a beautifully worded passage....I just would like to answer intelligently when my friend will certainly use this scripture "against" the dead being dead!
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EKnight

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2009, 12:07:46 AM »

That same thought occurred to me too Gena.  In addition, how would one, who is in the realm of the imperceptible, behold (see) anything let alone a spirit which can't be seen in the first place? ??? ???

Eileen
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Marlene

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2009, 12:28:47 AM »

Now, I could be thinking about this wrong. Since, the body is in the grave and the spirit goes back to God. The spirit would be in safe keeping with God till he ressurect us from the dead. I do not see why the spirit could not be sleeping just because God has taken it back. After, all he will be giving all the ones life that have died when he returns. This is the rest for the saints from trials and tribulations and labours. It is rest to the generation while god continues to deal with the other generations. It also, takes away from some of the wicked in each generation. Doesn't God quicken our sprit to life. We really do need scriptures. With out a ressurection our believe is in vain.

I will try and find some scriptures, but in the mean time maye others can find those for us.

In His Love,
Marlene
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 12:41:37 AM by Marlene »
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Marlene

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2009, 12:50:11 AM »

I am sure Rays, teaching on the orgin of Hell  and death have all the scriptures that would clear this up.I know he discusses that we have to have a judgement. We do not have Imortality as of yet. We are motals. Rembember Babylon teaches Adam and Eve were perfect before there fall.We all face a judgement. The church now and the rest will be in the White Throne Judgement.  I would say Ray's teaching on death and the Orgin of Hell or maybe we should all start reading Rays papers again.God would not be a fair judge if he would not even judge them.

In His Love,
Marlene
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 12:52:23 AM by Marlene »
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aqrinc

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2009, 01:10:17 AM »


I have enjoyed this thread...but I have an itsy bitsy question.....

Ahem...Can God actually be in the unseen w/ us?  Why would He be if our spirit goes back to Him?

Or can half a verse be literal and half a verse be spiritual?

I agree that is a beautifully worded passage....I just would like to answer intelligently when my friend will certainly use this scripture "against" the dead being dead!

What does one have to do with the other, every place where Scripture is quoted, that Scripture is Truth. Are we going to pick and choose which Scripture to believe now.

Psa 119:160 (KJV)
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Psa 119:160 (CLV)
The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."

Psa 119: 156-168 (CLV)
165 Much peace is for those loving Your law, And there is no stumbling block for them."
166 I look forward to Your salvation, O Yahweh, And I perform Your instructions."
167 My soul keeps Your testimonies, And I love them exceedingly."
168 I keep Your precepts and Your testimonies, For all my ways are in front of You."

These verses in 2nd Timothy are very important to read now, in connection with so much idle speculation going on. There is so much in Scripture that has been laboriously explained by Ray; and members have agreed to at least read and learn the basics of Rays teaching.

Recognize that no one is here by their own freewill; so then we are her by The Grace Of GOD And Our Lord Jesus Christ. Come on people there is serious learning to do here and time draws ever nearer when this Age will be past.

At that time everyone of us will either be in The First Resurrection or waiting for Judgment in The LOF.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, it is meant to remind us of what we are about here.


2Tim 2: 5-19 (GNB)
5  An athlete who runs in a race cannot win the prize unless he obeys the rules.
6  The farmer who has done the hard work should have the first share of the harvest.
7  Think about what I am saying, because the Lord will enable you to understand it all.
8  Remember Jesus Christ, who was raised from death, who was a descendant of David, as is taught in the Good News I preach.
9  Because I preach the Good News, I suffer and I am even chained like a criminal. But the word of God is not in chains,
10  and so I endure everything for the sake of God's chosen people, in order that they too may obtain the salvation that comes through Christ Jesus and brings eternal glory.
11  This is a true saying: "If we have died with him, we shall also live with him.
12  If we continue to endure, we shall also rule with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us.
13  If we are not faithful, he remains faithful, because he cannot be false to himself."
14  Remind your people of this, and give them a solemn warning in God's presence not to fight over words. It does no good, but only ruins the people who listen.
15  Do your best to win full approval in God's sight, as a worker who is not ashamed of his work, one who correctly teaches the message of God's truth.
16  Keep away from profane and foolish discussions, which only drive people farther away from God.
17  Such teaching is like an open sore that eats away the flesh. Two men who have taught such things are Hymenaeus and Philetus.
18  They have left the way of truth and are upsetting the faith of some believers by saying that our resurrection has already taken place.
19  But the solid foundation that God has laid cannot be shaken; and on it are written these words: "The Lord knows those who are his" and "Those who say that they belong to the Lord must turn away from wrongdoing."

george. :)

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daywalker

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2009, 03:31:27 PM »

That same thought occurred to me too Gena.  In addition, how would one, who is in the realm of the imperceptible, behold (see) anything let alone a spirit which can't be seen in the first place? ??? ???

Eileen


Nobody "literally" goes anywhere when they die. It's called Sheol--the Unseen, but it's not a "literal" place. The statement by David is poetic and symbolic. In symbolism, visions, prophetic dreams, etc., Sheol can be described as an actual place, even though it's not [Just like Jesus is called the "Lamb" of God, thought He is not really a lamb.]

David is simply saying that God is everywhere. No matter where you go, you can't get away from Him. You can't outrun or hide from God, because there is no place in existence that He isn't there.

John 4:24 God is Spirit...

Colossians 1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."



That's all.  ;)

- Daywalker.  8)
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Marlene

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2009, 04:33:44 PM »

Posted by: gmik 
Insert Quote
I have enjoyed this thread...but I have an itsy bitsy question.....

Ahem...Can God actually be in the unseen w/ us?  Why would He be if our spirit goes back to Him?

Or can half a verse be literal and half a verse be spiritual?

I agree that is a beautifully worded passage....I just would like to answer intelligently when my friend will certainly use this scripture "against" the dead being dead!


Gena , We have to remember there is no Hell! Hell should have read grave.
Psalms 49 verse 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave fo he shall receive me. Selah
1 Corinthians  Chapter 15 verse 55 O death, where is they sting; O grave, where is thy victory?
Verse 56 The sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is law.
Verse 58 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ
Jesus had the victory over sin which caused Death.  There is no Hell to save anyone from.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2009, 06:48:34 PM »


Nobody "literally" goes anywhere when they die. It's called Sheol--the Unseen, but it's not a "literal" place. The statement by David is poetic and symbolic. In symbolism, visions, prophetic dreams, etc., Sheol can be described as an actual place, even though it's not [Just like Jesus is called the "Lamb" of God, thought He is not really a lamb.]

David is simply saying that God is everywhere. No matter where you go, you can't get away from Him. You can't outrun or hide from God, because there is no place in existence that He isn't there.


Exactly.  "Sheol" is not the new "heaven or hell".  It's noplace at all.  Dead people are dead and know nothing...not even that they are dead.  Resurrection is our hope.  Without resurrection, death is the end of us. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

meee

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2009, 07:44:28 PM »

Now, I could be thinking about this wrong. Since, the body is in the grave and the spirit goes back to God. The spirit would be in safe keeping with God till he ressurect us from the dead. I do not see why the spirit could not be sleeping just because God has taken it back. After, all he will be giving all the ones life that have died when he returns. This is the rest for the saints from trials and tribulations and labours. It is rest to the generation while god continues to deal with the other generations. It also, takes away from some of the wicked in each generation. Doesn't God quicken our sprit to life. We really do need scriptures. With out a ressurection our believe is in vain.

I will try and find some scriptures, but in the mean time maye others can find those for us.

In His Love,
Marlene

        Marlene,
            I think this too, when you're dead the whole person is dead, sleeping, so why would not the all, include the spirit that has returned to God!?
            Are the rest of you agreeing, or is Marlene's and my thinking off base?  Input please.
            luv,meee
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judith collier

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Re: Ecc 9:5 vs-
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2009, 08:22:06 PM »

Now, I am not sure but since I always have to be satisfied somehow because my curiousty can drive me nuts, I just thought the Spirit was God anyway,His Spirit keeps us alive as much as the physical body does. God just leaves the body. Didn't those 2 people(married) in the new Testament (because they kept some of the money from their property) just drop dead. Their physical body was o.k. but God withdrew from them. judy ??
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