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Title: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: ZekeSr on March 01, 2020, 12:59:26 PM
I'm always amazed when proper translation of Scripture suddenly opens another door of possibility that is far more plausible than mistranslated dogma. A place where Scripter and science suddenly appear to converge. This is something that Ray was always big on. While I'm certainly not going to claim this particular example as absolute, it does make sense. And it is even a tad personal, because my 23&Me results show my genetic ancestry as being slightly less than 4% Neanderthal which is just a tad above average as compared to other 23&Me participants.

Mike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8xSytOfAAQ
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: indianabob on March 02, 2020, 12:25:31 AM
Hi Mike,
When you refer to genetics from Neanderthal, to what distinctions and characteristics do you refer?
Where was Neanderthal found and what are the facts concerning his body structure that can be traced to modern homo sapiens?
thanks Bob
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Musterseed on March 02, 2020, 05:18:37 PM
Hi Mike and Ibob.
Ibob, you ask” where was this Neanderthal found”
Well look no further my friend, because I captured one
about 44 years ago and have been trying to tame it ever
since. I keep it downstairs in its man cave and throw it
some meat from time to time to keep it from growling.
It does a lot of grunting when watching sports
and has taken a liking to doing puzzles which is a bonus
for me because this activity keeps it quiet. This manlike
creature can drive and do manual labor so I think I will keep
it. I know it was a gift from God, however
there have been times when it was a thorn in my side. Maybe it thinks the same of me🤔 only
God knows. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣


Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 02, 2020, 05:50:34 PM
😂 That was priceless Pamela.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 02, 2020, 05:51:07 PM
Interesting post Mike!

I've recently been talking to God about the giants in scripture,  and asking for his help in finding the missing piece to understanding. Maybe this is it.

This lines up with what Ray discussed at the 2008 Nashville Conference.  Although I have to admit, I thought you were being funny about your ancestry connection to Neandrathal, until I watched the video. This would also explain the other people that lived outside the garden,  that Ray spoke of. They were gatherers and not tillers of the earth like Adam was.  With this information, It's not to far of a reach for me to consider Cain found his wife from among these people.  It would also explain how the nephalem/fallen ones, still existed after the flood.  I'm going to reconsider my thoughts about the Neandrathal.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: ZekeSr on March 02, 2020, 06:41:28 PM
Neanderthals were fully human and, as of today, there have been hundreds of skeletons found everywhere from Britain to the Middle East. Many of their bones are recent enough to extract DNA and their genome has been fully sequenced. If you watched the video you know that the Nephilim in Genesis 6:4 were not giants. The word Nephilim is not properly translated. It is better translated “the fallen ones.” They have fallen in the sense that they no longer exist as a separate group, but they still exist as a genetic remnant in the bodies of many of us today. As I explained to someone, I looked up Nephilim and its roots in ancient Hebrew. The definition fits more precisely to Neanderthals than actual giants. Neanderthals were a form of human that we now know were every bit as intelligent as modern man and lived at the same time as modern humans for thousands of years before they disappeared. They were not tall, but had far more physical potential than the average homo sapien... extremely solid in structure and muscularity. They have been compared to elite modern-day power lifters. Think World’s Strongest Man Contest and you have an idea of the amount of genetic potential a pure Neanderthal would possess (without the steroids) if he were alive and training in the gym today.
I'm not sure what exactly I have inherited, but it sure ain't the strongman part. :)

Mike
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Doug on March 02, 2020, 06:58:17 PM
Pam your reply made my day! Probably will be chuckling for days.

My goddaughter did a dna test and she was partially Neanderthal. She does not work out but she is extremely strong.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 02, 2020, 07:24:02 PM
Mike,
I think it's possible "The Fallen ones" is describing those who were ungodly, because they had turned away from him.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: ZekeSr on March 03, 2020, 09:09:38 AM
Mike,
I think it's possible "The Fallen ones" is describing those who were ungodly, because they had turned away from him.

Wanda,

I can't say really yes or no. There could be a duality to it, as there often is. But my own opinion is that it's a reference to them being a people who died out as a race. For whatever reason, they "fell." But they still remain in the sense that they interbred with the genetic offspring of Adam and Eve. There were definitely humans on the earth before Adam and Eve.

Gen 6:4  There were Nephilim (Neanderthals???) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God (genetic offspring of Adam and Eve???) came in unto the daughters of men (preexisting humans???), and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 I'm basing it on the context of time. They are being referenced as having been. And there is yet another species of human recently uncovered. The Denisovans are a new find with very little material discovered, but enough to once again connect some of their genetic material to certain present day people. This one is still on the drawing board, but they were definitely human, closely related to the Neanderthals, and there are indications that they were possibly even bigger.

Mike
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 04, 2020, 01:14:04 AM
I thought nephilim meant tyrants and mighty ones not fallen as it would imply nephulim / nophelim from naphal, not nephilim, which would make a lot more sense. There are also strange teachings that carry on with the fallen angels fables that tie into this. Also I doubt Eve could be the mother of all living if there was more than one Adam. If there was more than one Adam then salvation really is only for a few and the scriptures contradict when they say things like that Adam was first formed etc. I'm beginning to understand more and more why Paul wrote to not focus on genealogies as not everyone has this knowledge nor would I like to break anyone's faith if they like these lineage shenanigans. I really don't think neanderthals = nephilim. I will have to look more into this since the scriptures are pretty bulletproof and Ray's old writings on Adam before he said multiple Adams made the most sense... at least to me.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: ZekeSr on March 04, 2020, 03:38:09 PM
I thought nephilim meant tyrants and mighty ones not fallen as it would imply nephulim / nophelim from naphal, not nephilim, which would make a lot more sense. There are also strange teachings that carry on with the fallen angels fables that tie into this. Also I doubt Eve could be the mother of all living if there was more than one Adam. If there was more than one Adam then salvation really is only for a few and the scriptures contradict when they say things like that Adam was first formed etc. I'm beginning to understand more and more why Paul wrote to not focus on genealogies as not everyone has this knowledge nor would I like to break anyone's faith if they like these lineage shenanigans. I really don't think neanderthals = nephilim. I will have to look more into this since the scriptures are pretty bulletproof and Ray's old writings on Adam before he said multiple Adams made the most sense... at least to me.

Hello Nshan,

Nephilim can certainly mean mighty ones and I have no problem with that. I was remiss in not mentioning it myself. Nevertheless, it is from the root word naphal which indicates "to fall, cease, or die." It is almost certainly a connotation of both meanings, but I'm reading it in the framework of Scripture that was written looking back into the past. No the Nephilim do not necessarily have to be Neanderthals. But, so far, the only two species of known human that existed at the same time as "us" were large, powerful, related to each other, and now extinct.

As far as I'm concerned, the interpretation of fallen angels mating with human women is nothing but heretical B.S. and makes no sense whatsoever. 

Concerning Eve:
Gen 3:20  "And the man called the name of his wife, Eve; because she BECAME the mother of all living" is a more literal translation which can have a whole different implication. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever remember Ray suggesting more than one Adam. Yes he did say there were people on the earth before Adam, but that is scientifically indisputable and not unscriptural. Personally, I have always thought the lineage of Adam and Eve was simply showing the route created leading to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I welcome any further opinion you may have. That's how we learn.

Mike



Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 04, 2020, 03:48:10 PM

I dug a bit deeper and discovered "the fallen ones" are all those who have died by the sword. The mighty ones were the warriors that were known for their reign of terror on the nation's of that time. In this regard they don't exist anymore, but we only need to look at history to know others rose up after them.  Today, these mighty ones, are the terrorists groups in the ME  Nothing new under the sun.

Ezekiel 32

12 I will cause your hordes to fall
    by the swords of mighty men—
    the most ruthless of all nations.

22 “Assyria is there with her whole army; she is surrounded by the graves of all her slain, all who have fallen by the sword.23 Their graves are in the depths of the pit(AH) and her army lies around her grave.(AI) All who had spread terror in the land of the living are slain, fallen by the sword.

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: ZekeSr on March 04, 2020, 04:20:55 PM
Ezekiel 32

12 I will cause your hordes to fall
    by the swords of mighty men—
    the most ruthless of all nations.

22 “Assyria is there with her whole army; she is surrounded by the graves of all her slain, all who have fallen by the sword.23 Their graves are in the depths of the pit(AH) and her army lies around her grave.(AI) All who had spread terror in the land of the living are slain, fallen by the sword.

I think the fallen ones are all those who have fallen by the sword.

Quite true, Wanda.
And no one knows what eventually happened to the Neanderthals. Perhaps, on the whole, they too fell by the sword.

Mike
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 04, 2020, 04:30:58 PM
Quote
Quite true, Wanda.
And no one knows what eventually happened to the Neanderthals. Perhaps, on the whole, they too fell by the sword.

Mike
I was editing my post while you were replying.☺

Those who live by the sword die by the sword.

There is a duality as well. The sons of God fell from their spiritual heights into moral decay after marrying into the families of these spiritually devoid people. Thus the wickedness spread until no one in the land could be found righteous among them,  except Noah. As always the many and the few.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 04, 2020, 09:44:26 PM
I thought nephilim meant tyrants and mighty ones not fallen as it would imply nephulim / nophelim from naphal, not nephilim, which would make a lot more sense. There are also strange teachings that carry on with the fallen angels fables that tie into this. Also I doubt Eve could be the mother of all living if there was more than one Adam. If there was more than one Adam then salvation really is only for a few and the scriptures contradict when they say things like that Adam was first formed etc. I'm beginning to understand more and more why Paul wrote to not focus on genealogies as not everyone has this knowledge nor would I like to break anyone's faith if they like these lineage shenanigans. I really don't think neanderthals = nephilim. I will have to look more into this since the scriptures are pretty bulletproof and Ray's old writings on Adam before he said multiple Adams made the most sense... at least to me.



Hello Nshan,

Nephilim can certainly mean mighty ones and I have no problem with that. I was remiss in not mentioning it myself. Nevertheless, it is from the root word naphal which indicates "to fall, cease, or die." It is almost certainly a connotation of both meanings, but I'm reading it in the framework of Scripture that was written looking back into the past. No the Nephilim do not necessarily have to be Neanderthals. But, so far, the only two species of known human that existed at the same time as "us" were large, powerful, related to each other, and now extinct.

As far as I'm concerned, the interpretation of fallen angels mating with human women is nothing but heretical B.S. and makes no sense whatsoever. 

Concerning Eve:
Gen 3:20  "And the man called the name of his wife, Eve; because she BECAME the mother of all living" is a more literal translation which can have a whole different implication. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever remember Ray suggesting more than one Adam. Yes he did say there were people on the earth before Adam, but that is scientifically indisputable and not unscriptural. Personally, I have always thought the lineage of Adam and Eve was simply showing the route created leading to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I welcome any further opinion you may have. That's how we learn.

Mike

I have trouble understanding how can it be a connotation of both meanings if you're just confusing nephulim / nophelim with nephilim?

I also don't think when Eve became the mother of all living leads to any different interpretation. What are you trying to imply? We either all are from Adam or not. I highly doubt there was any person before Adam since he was the first formed, if there were then the scriptures do contradict. Eve can't be the mother of all living if she is not. We can't all die in Adam if we're not all in Adam. By one man sin entered the world not by some. We're now entering into the realm of square circles.

I also don't agree with things being "scientifically indisputable" as all theory is merely that: theory. There are many superseded theories. Even the axioms themselves that we take for granted in math are merely assumptions.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Dennis Vogel on March 05, 2020, 09:18:17 AM
Quote
I also don't think when Eve became the mother of all living leads to any different interpretation.

I have not been following this. I have other things to deal with right now and I've barely skimmed it a few times. But I just saw the above.

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

As Ray points out time and again. The bible is full of symbols, metaphors, etc. Neither verse should be taken literally.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: indianabob on March 05, 2020, 04:06:20 PM
Hi Dennis,

Relating to what we believe in faith, I understand that Matt 8:22 is very literal.
Jesus was responding to a man of faith who was asking to follow Jesus and support his ministry.
That Jesus welcomed him and told him to let the "dead" carry out the funeral rituals is very instructive of how we should think of our own position with Jesus as our leader and savior.
Why? Because the term "the dead" refers to those of the man's family without faith.
e.g. Those of Israel who had not yet come to believe that Jesus truly was their Messiah.

Please correct me if I misunderstand.
Indiana B
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Dennis Vogel on March 05, 2020, 07:52:21 PM
Hi Dennis,

Relating to what we believe in faith, I understand that Matt 8:22 is very literal.
Jesus was responding to a man of faith who was asking to follow Jesus and support his ministry.
That Jesus welcomed him and told him to let the "dead" carry out the funeral rituals is very instructive of how we should think of our own position with Jesus as our leader and savior.
Why? Because the term "the dead" refers to those of the man's family without faith.
e.g. Those of Israel who had not yet come to believe that Jesus truly was their Messiah.

Please correct me if I misunderstand.
Indiana B

True, but the 'dead' were not literally 'dead' were they?

Jesus did not mean for literally 'dead' people to carry out a funeral. That's impossible.

So it is not literal. It's symbolic.


The Bible Does Not Say What It Means: https://youtu.be/-P6d56OOhCY (https://youtu.be/-P6d56OOhCY)
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: indianabob on March 05, 2020, 09:31:31 PM
Hi again Dennis,
You make a valid point.
However if we take what was written according to how the people of that day and time would have understood it (without lots of explanation because they were accustomed to speak in a familiar manner) then I believe that the hearer would have understood it spiritually without any explanation such as we who depend upon a translation would need.
Please also consider the following verse from Matthew 10:

Mat 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 
Mat 10:35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 
Mat 10:36  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 
Mat 10:37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 

Also in Luke 14:

Luk 14:25  And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 
Luk 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not [love less] his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 
Luk 14:27  And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple
Luk 14:28  For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 
Luk 14:29  Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 
Luk 14:30  Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 
Luk 14:31  Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 
Luk 14:32  Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 
Luk 14:33  So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 

Hoping to add a little light...Bob
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Heidi on March 05, 2020, 09:51:18 PM
Here are my thoughts on the topic.

Starting with Adam:
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised.
In Genesis 2:7
The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or life, and the man became a living being (other translations says living soul).
Strong’s Concordance 5315 soul is nephesh, definition, a soul, living being, life, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion. The inner being of a man...continuing with "living being” in Strong’s is the word "chay" and it is an adjective, feminine, noun, meaning alive, living...of man, a living man.

NEXT COMPARE:
In Genesis 1:26 we read...Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth” (The Neanderthal were hunter gatherers? They were not tilling the ground yet)

It is still the same creation event but in Genesis 2 we get told in greater detail how He did it, He breathed life into his nostrils.

I believe that Adam received Gods spirit, received knowledge of good and evil, ate the forbidden fruit (having an understanding, learning contrasts), started tilling the ground, using tools,
becoming smart (smarter that the Neanderthals?)

They found skeletons older that 300 000 years old, fossils found at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco. There were certainly other living beings before Adam was breathed life into. The difference is that from Adam onwards, we follow Christs ancestry.

These were human beings who lived without having the knowledge of God (the forbidden fruit) but they had a desire to worship something, I.e. the sun, the moon, the stars etc. Because now one is without excuse to believe in a higher being by what is visible by what we see in nature and around us. 

It is in our DNA to want to believe in something bigger than us. In
Romans 1:20 we read, “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse"

Love
Heidi
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 05, 2020, 09:58:46 PM
Quote
I also don't think when Eve became the mother of all living leads to any different interpretation.

I have not been following this. I have other things to deal with right now and I've barely skimmed it a few times. But I just saw the above.

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

As Ray points out time and again. The bible is full of symbols, metaphors, etc. Neither verse should be taken literally.

I understand that Dennis, but if Eve was spiritually dead how is she the mother of all spiritually living? You acknowledge the figures of old such as Noah and Moses were all real and they represented something for the elect of God for our admonishment and yet these were all their actual stories. I'm not sure where I should begin throwing out stories in the scripture I don't like because of the beliefs of the current Zeitgeist it just doesn't make sense at least not to me.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 05, 2020, 10:11:57 PM
Here are my thoughts on the topic.

Starting with Adam:
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all,
forever praised.
Genesis 2:7
The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or
life, and the man became a living being (other translations says living soul).
Strong’s Concordance 5315 soul is nephesh, definition, a soul, living being, life, person, desire, passion,
appetite, emotion. The inner being of a man...continued “a living being” in Strong’s is chay it is and
adjective, feminine, noun, meaning alive, living...of man, a living man.
THEN COMPARE:
In Genesis 1:26 we read...Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them
rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over every creeping thing that
creepeth upon the earth” (The Neanderthal were hunter gatherers????)
It is still the same creation but in Genesis 2 we get told in greater detail how He did it, He breathed life
into his nostrils. I believe that Adam received Gods spirit, received knowledge of good and evil, ate the
forbidden fruit (having an understanding, learning contrasts), started tilling the ground, using tools,
becoming smart (smarter that the Neanderthals????)
They found skeletons older that 300 000 years old, fossils found at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco. There were
certainly other living beings before Adam was breathed life into. The difference is that from Adam
onwards, we follow Christs ancestry.
These were human beings who lived without having the knowledge of God (the forbidden fruit) but they
had a desire to worship something, I.e. the sun, the moon, the stars etc. Because now one is without
excuse to believe in a higher being by what is visible by what we see in nature and around us. It is in our
dna to want to believe in something.
Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine
nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are
without excuse"

Love
Heidi
I understand what you're saying Heidi, but it doesn't explain everything. Why would Paul in Rom 5:12 state that by one man sin entered the world and death by sin. So the other humans you believe were around with Adam wouldn't have sinned. They were not in Adam. Therefore since they have no trespass, no knowledge, etc... they are not going to die since we know the soul that sins will die (Eze 18:20). I thought Christ sacrificed himself as a ransom for all since all have fallen short of the glory of God not some?
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 05, 2020, 11:15:03 PM
Quote
I understand that Dennis, but if Eve was spiritually dead how is she the mother of all spiritually living?

The promise of a Savior from man’s rebellious nature is something we see consistently throughout Scripture—from its origin in Genesis, all the way through to Christ’s ultimate victory in Revelation.

God promised that through the Seed (i.e., descendant) of a woman (Eve) would come one who would crush the head of Satan. This is the first promise of a Savior to come into the world to save ALL MANKIND. Genesis 3:14–15

With the woman’s seed is a hope for life that defeats death, hence the mother of all living

The seed of the woman would redeem All of humanity, and not just the elect.
Is this not Gods plan for mankind since before their creation?

1 Cor 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.

Hebrews 2:14–15

14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject.

Dennis sees something in addition, that's just beyond my reach.

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 06, 2020, 03:39:00 AM
Nshan,

Mike started a thread, "First People" and the subject of other people was well discussed @ 6 pages.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,17135.0.html

One of Mike's comments I thought was a real eye opener, but there are many others too.

Quote
And the “real Eve” is the Word, the Starting Point, the Helper who came out from God, the Creator of all that exists in the Universe, the “Mother” of all living.

We all sin and fall short of God's glory, so I'm confused why you would say Eve can't be the mother of all living because she's spiritually dead. Are we all spiritually dead?

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 06, 2020, 10:43:18 AM
Nshan,

Mike started a thread, "First People" and the subject of other people was well discussed @ 6 pages.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,17135.0.html

One of Mike's comments I thought was a real eye opener, but there are many others too.

Quote
And the “real Eve” is the Word, the Starting Point, the Helper who came out from God, the Creator of all that exists in the Universe, the “Mother” of all living.

We all sin and fall short of God's glory, so I'm confused why you would say Eve can't be the mother of all living because she's spiritually dead. Are we all spiritually dead?

I didn't say that Wanda. She is the mother of all living, but she was spiritually dead or do you not agree? Because of Jesus Christ we are not all spiritually dead, but we should reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive for Him. Without Him there is no life. I'm confused how I can be completely clear and yet you're interpreting it as though I'm saying Eve isn't the mother of all living? I don't understand how any of your previous comments negates what I'm saying.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Dennis Vogel on March 06, 2020, 12:07:54 PM
Hi again Dennis,
You make a valid point.
However if we take what was written according to how the people of that day and time would have understood it (without lots of explanation because they were accustomed to speak in a familiar manner) then I believe that the hearer would have understood it spiritually without any explanation such as we who depend upon a translation would need.
Please also consider the following verse from Matthew 10:

Mat 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Also in Luke 14:

Luk 14:25  And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not [love less] his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27  And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28  For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29  Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30  Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31  Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32  Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33  So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Hoping to add a little light...Bob

I agree Bob. You are correct. They understood it was not meant to be taken literally. It's symbolic. That's the whole point.

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Have you not considered Gen 3:20 is talking about the "living" the same way Mat 8:22 talks about the "dead"?

I think the real problem here is people want to believe Eve is the mother of every human being that ever lived. But that's not what the above verse says. It does not say Eve is the mother of all humans. It says "living" which Strong's says can mean "literally or figuratively."

Adam was alive at this time. Was Eve also his mother? Is Eve also the mother of all the dead? Accordingly she should be because all humans die.

Strong's says the Hebrew word "all" can also mean "any" or "as many as." This is the same as the Greek word "all" and can also legitimately mean "as many as."

So who are the dead and who are the living in these two verses? Who inspired those two verses? Are they connected?

Isa 28:10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: indianabob on March 06, 2020, 12:29:30 PM
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for that further explanation. Much appreciated.
I'll think on it some more.
Indiana Bob
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Dennis Vogel on March 06, 2020, 12:34:46 PM
Quote
I also don't think when Eve became the mother of all living leads to any different interpretation.

I have not been following this. I have other things to deal with right now and I've barely skimmed it a few times. But I just saw the above.

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

As Ray points out time and again. The bible is full of symbols, metaphors, etc. Neither verse should be taken literally.

I understand that Dennis, but if Eve was spiritually dead how is she the mother of all spiritually living? You acknowledge the figures of old such as Noah and Moses were all real and they represented something for the elect of God for our admonishment and yet these were all their actual stories. I'm not sure where I should begin throwing out stories in the scripture I don't like because of the beliefs of the current Zeitgeist it just doesn't make sense at least not to me.

I hope I did not imply Eve was spiritually dead? Because I do not see that. If anything she would have to be one of the living to be the mother of them.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 06, 2020, 10:54:02 PM
Quote
We all sin and fall short of God's glory, so I'm confused why you would say Eve can't be the mother of all living because she's spiritually dead. Are we all spiritually dead?

didn't say that Wanda. She is the mother of all living, but she was spiritually dead or do you not agree? Because of Jesus Christ we are not all spiritually dead, but we should reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive for Him. Without Him there is no life. I'm confused how I can be completely clear and yet you're interpreting it as though I'm saying Eve isn't the mother of all living? I don't understand how any of your previous comments negates what I'm saying.

My apologies Nshan,  I see where I confused things. Without carefully reading I misunderstood you to mean, because Eve sinned she was spiritually dead. And no, I don't believe she was alive in Christ, as one of the elect.  However, she is the mother of both those spiritually alive as well as the spiritually dead, for the reasons I previously posted. 

Genesis 3 CLV
20  And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.

Considering Salvation is first to those in Christ, I can also see that Eve would first become the mother of all who would be alive in Christ.

Through her seed, (Seth's) Godly line,  the Savior would come. I don't see where Eve herself would need to be spiritually living. Maybe Dennis has some insight into that.

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 07, 2020, 02:16:21 AM
Just a heads up, I'm not trying to be rude or attack anyone in this post so sorry if it comes off this way. And don't apologize Wanda I'm trying to make sense out of all this. This topic is a bit personal to me as it feels flat out evil to cast away people from the family of God. Maybe we're at different points of understanding.

To me at least it doesn't take a lot to understand that Eve is the mother of all living BECAUSE she made living beings aka babies with Adam. You say line upon line and precept upon precept yet you don't even seem to want to humor the scriptures that would completely contradict the notion of more than one Adam or Adam + friends. We either all die in Adam or the scriptures lie and we don't. Can you show me where it says some die in Adam please so I can be sure Christ is only saving the few and not all men especially of those who believe? I believe you think the above verse Gen 3:20 doesn't say that because you don't even have multiple witnesses, so perhaps you don't even fully understand it or the implications of what you're saying (casting people off from the family of God).  Do you really want to believe we're not all God's offspring through Adam (first the physical one and then the spiritual one) and he isn't far from any one of us? Isn't that what Paul said, or are we not really all in Adam? You are not wrong about Adam and Eve being symbolic but so were: Moses, Noah, Joseph, David etc. and yet were these real people with their actual stories. Their lives were written for our admonishment. Unless you want to start saying things like the walls of Jericho didn't actually fall down,  the Red Sea was never parted, Israel never had a king... 

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Heidi on March 07, 2020, 05:15:48 PM
In Roman's 8:20-21 we read,

"20For the creature was made subject to vanity: not willingly, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope. 21Because the creature also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God."

Strongs 3937 of creature is ktisis and its definition is creation (the act or the product)

We are all God's creation, Homo erectus,  Homo sapiens, Neanderthal, people who lived 300 000 years ago etc. 

It is only now in this period of grace that God has revealed the mystery of His truth.  We are the kingdom of God in which he is building his church, the first fruits.

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed."  Remember what we've been taught, that it is Christ who is, was and will be until he comes again.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 07, 2020, 05:28:16 PM
Quote
I believe you think the above verse Gen 3:20 doesn't say that because you don't even have multiple witnesses, so perhaps you don't even fully understand it or the implications of what you're saying (casting people off from the family of God).  Do you really want to believe we're not all God's offspring through Adam (first the physical one and then the spiritual one) and he isn't far from any one of us? Isn't that what Paul said, or are we not really all in Adam?

Nshan,

I do understand your frustration.

The verse is confusing if we only see it as literal and not symbolic of something much bigger. The bigger, is Jesus, the Savior of All. Not that Eve was literally the mother of All.  If we can only see the literal how will we ever see the spiritual? First the natural then the spiritual. Eve is the natural, Jesus is the spiritual and the message in Genesis 3:20 Is a spiritual one.

God promised that through the Seed (i.e., descendant) of a woman (Eve) would come one who would crush the head of Satan. This is the first promise of a Savior to come into the world to save ALL MANKIND. Genesis 3:14–15

Is this not a witness?

Not one of us here is casting anyone out of the family of God, nor would We want to.  We believe the word of God that tells us of his magnificent plan to save ALL OF MANKIND, NOT JUST A FEW. 
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Heidi on March 07, 2020, 05:37:20 PM
Hi Nshan response to my post you ask:

"the world and death by sin. So the other humans you believe were around with Adam wouldn't have sinned. They were not in Adam. Therefore since they have no trespass, no knowledge, etc... they are not going to die since we know the soul that sins will die (Eze 18:20). I thought Christ sacrificed himself as a ransom for all since all have fallen short of the glory of God not some?"

That is an absolute truth, He did sacrifice himself as ransom for all.

We read in Roman's 2:12-16
"12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Roman's 11:33-36 (one of my favorite sculptures)
"33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and i knowledge of God!  How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!  34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”  35“Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?”  36For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen."

God made sure to cover everything.....believe in His Sovereignty
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Heidi on March 07, 2020, 05:51:40 PM
God promised that through the Seed (i.e., descendant) of a woman (Eve) would come one who would crush the head of Satan. This is the first promise of a Savior to come into the world to save ALL MANKIND. Genesis 3:14–15

Is this not a witness?

Not one of us here is casting anyone out of the family of God, nor would We want to.  We believe the word of God that tells us of his magnificent plan to save ALL OF MANKIND, NOT JUST A FEW.

Well said Wanda, also another witness is Roman's 1:2 "2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" other translations say " to his human nature" was a descendant of David.

Heidi

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 07, 2020, 06:07:01 PM
Quote
Roman's 11:33-36 (one of my favorite sculptures)
"33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and i knowledge of God!  How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!  34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”  35“Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?”  36For from him and through him and for him are all things.

To him be the glory forever! Amen."

God made sure to cover everything.....believe in His Sovereignty

Amen to that Heidi. Thanks for addressing Ishan's question, it was spot on.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 07, 2020, 10:54:19 PM
You have all either completely missed the point or flat out ignored what has been stated. And no you obviously don't understand my frustration. Let me re-iterate:

1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [No other Adam was formed BEFORE Adam]
Rom 5:12 - Wherefore as by one man [emphatically ONE] sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.
Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man [not multiple days of other humans] in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.

Do you guys even really believe any of these scriptures? We can't all be in Adam if we're not all in Adam and we can't all be made alive to Christ if we were all never in Adam to begin with. In fact none of us can even sin if we weren't all in Adam, because sin entered the world through who? One man. Who was that man? Adam.

How can the other Adams (the ones you claim to be before/during) even produce if God never created a woman except through Adam and brought her to Adam? (Gen 2:22-2:24) This was the first fleshly union where it is exclaimed that after in likeness a man will leave his dad and mom and be with his wife.

If Jesus didn't physically DIE and then resurrected, even your faith is in vain. Did you even believe that Jesus actually was in the flesh and was made a little lower than the angels physically? Or maybe Jesus Christ was never real to begin with and it was all an illusion?

Perhaps it is true then as in John 3:12 - "If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

I understand the emphasis on the spiritual yet you don't even believe the scriptures that talk about Adam. How will you even move onto the spiritual at all? Do you even understand your implication when we don't all die in Adam?
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 08, 2020, 01:06:22 AM
Quote
You have all either completely missed the point or flat out ignored what has been stated. And no you obviously don't understand my frustration. Let me re-iterate:

You are right Nshan, it's glaringly obvious I don't understand your frustration, as I've never become so frustrated that I've insulted other members, and I hope I never do. 

Not one of us have tried to force this on you, but have tried to answer your questions. Mike backed off pretty early after he realized where this thread was headed, me, I'm a little slow.




Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 08, 2020, 01:41:01 AM
Excuse me? I don't believe that I've insulted you or others. I'm presenting scriptures about Adam that indicate all of us are God's offspring and that he isn't far from any of us VERSUS we are not all God's offspring, we had some others here and there and Adam wasn't first formed so not all of us are in Adam... which is exceedingly insulting of itself. The scriptures are the ones that are doing the cutting. If this is offensive I don't know what else to say.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Porter on March 08, 2020, 09:59:28 AM


Do you guys even really believe any of these scriptures? We can't all be in Adam if we're not all in Adam and we can't all be made alive to Christ if we were all never in Adam to begin with. In fact none of us can even sin if we weren't all in Adam, because sin entered the world through who? One man. Who was that man? Adam.

Check the verse after Rom. 5:12.

Rom 5:13  In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.

Was there really no sin before Adam? Is Paul contradicting himself in verses 12 and 13? Or was it that there was no knowledge of sin before Adam? The whole point of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was to give knowledge of good and evil through the law of Christ so that we may be held accountable, so we know we are accountable. Judgment corrects us by opening our eyes to our sinful nature.

Just as Ray stated from Scripture, all of humanity operates under one of these two laws: The law of the spirit of life in Christ, or the law of sin and death. Most are under the law of sin and death due to a lack of knowledge. God's Elect were under the same law of sin and death also at one time, but now have been made free (from sin and death) by the law of Christ.

Adam and Eve were clueless (blind) to their "nakedness" (unrighteousness) and sinful nature even before they ate of the fruit. If Eve  supposedly sinned first because she was deceived, in what manner did sin "enter the world" through Adam first? How can the many that call Jesus Lord know their sinful, God hating, selfish nature unless they receive knowledge by the spiritual law?

Rom_7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Is the tree of knowledge of good and evil like the spiritual law of Christ through which we are able to see the beast within? Who knows what's good or evil? No, seriously, i wanna know.

Heb 5:13  Now everyone who lives on milk (physical law?) is inexperienced with the message about righteousness, because he is an infant.
Heb 5:14  But solid food (spiritual law? tree with solid fruit to eat?) is for the mature--for those whose senses have been trained to distinguish between good and evil.

I think the story of Adam and Eve is told in a way that reveals the plan of God for all humanity, but not everyone knows this. Most see the story as literal or historical (not saying the literal didn't happen), which I believe throws them off. The literal physical sinful Adam (representing sinful humanity) is first, the Second spiritual sinless Adam (humanity IN Christ) is Christ. First the physical, second the spiritual. We will be married to Christ, to become one in Christ. That is why it is said, when a man and woman marry, they become one. That is also why Adam and Eve are a type of Christ and the Church. Adam wasn't deceived like Eve was, but disobeyed God anyway, because he didn't want to be alone without Eve knowing she would die for disobeying God. Adam disobeyed and volunteered to die with his wife Eve like Christ obeyed and volunteered to die for His wife, the Church. I think Adam wanted to die for his own selfish reasons (which most of us would have done in his shoes), but Christ wanted to die to give us life, out of love for His wife, the Church.

What I wanna know is, what was sin before Adam and before the law? Was it still sin, but just not being judged? Did it only become sin when Adam disobeyed God knowing it would lead to his death even though Eve disobeyed God first because she was deceived by Satan?

How can the other Adams (the ones you claim to be before/during) even produce if God never created a woman except through Adam and brought her to Adam? (Gen 2:22-2:24) This was the first fleshly union where it is exclaimed that after in likeness a man will leave his dad and mom and be with his wife.

Literally speaking, how can Eve be a mother if she'd never had children yet?

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

If she hadn't had children yet, it must mean the mother of all spiritually living. The CLV translates a bit better.

Gen 3:20 And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Jerusalem? I thought the mother of us all was Eve?

If Jesus didn't physically DIE and then resurrected, even your faith is in vain. Did you even believe that Jesus actually was in the flesh and was made a little lower than the angels physically? Or maybe Jesus Christ was never real to begin with and it was all an illusion?

Perhaps it is true then as in John 3:12 - "If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

I understand the emphasis on the spiritual yet you don't even believe the scriptures that talk about Adam. How will you even move onto the spiritual at all? Do you even understand your implication when we don't all die in Adam?

The "earthly things" don't matter, because they will pass away, because they are not important. Earthly things are temporary, like literal Adam. The earthly things Jesus is referring to were the physical miracles He performed, and the teaching of the physical law. They didn't know the physical law was actually spiritual. Jesus said the greater things are the spiritual law and the spiritual miracles. Remember, we are blessed because we haven't seen Jesus physically, but yet we still believe.

Joh_20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The earthly things Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus are the same things He's been trying to tell them for a long time through the prophets.

Joh 3:14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The earthly physical things (including the physical miracles of Christ) were mere types and shadows of the spiritual reality that is life in Christ. If we believe the story of Adam and Eve as literal, we will stay in the shadow of death and sin. Literal interpretations always causes divisions. If we believe it is spiritual, we step into the light of the life of Christ. The spiritual truth have brought us together here. We are no longer under the schoolmaster, we've all been there and done that. This is not a knock against the OP, I'm already convinced (based on my own studies) in my own mind about whether or not humans were here before Adam and Eve.

Is it important to know when sin entered the world? Or is it more important to know the sin in us? How can sin be removed if God doesn't first show us what our sin is? Do you always know when you sin? Will the ignorant be judged less harshly? Will those that know the truth (surely you will die/wages of sin is death) be judged more harshly if we disobey God like Adam did? The OT makes an example out of the Israelite that constantly disobeyed God. For whom were the Scriptures written for? These are just some questions floating around in my head.

 The story of Adam and Eve was the start of many great spiritual things to come, hidden in plain sight. I truly believe the stories in the OT, if taken literally, were meant to throw us off. It did just that for a time didn't it? It continues to do so for many today. So take it easy on those of us that do not understand or agree with a certain literal interpretation in the bible.

I'm so blessed to get a glimpse of the spiritual things to come, it's really my only hope. Also, sorry for the wall of text, didn't expect to write that much.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 08, 2020, 02:28:02 PM


Do you guys even really believe any of these scriptures? We can't all be in Adam if we're not all in Adam and we can't all be made alive to Christ if we were all never in Adam to begin with. In fact none of us can even sin if we weren't all in Adam, because sin entered the world through who? One man. Who was that man? Adam.

Check the verse after Rom. 5:12.

Rom 5:13  In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.

Was there really no sin before Adam? Is Paul contradicting himself in verses 12 and 13? Or was it that there was no knowledge of sin before Adam? The whole point of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was to give knowledge of good and evil through the law of Christ so that we may be held accountable, so we know we are accountable. Judgment corrects us by opening our eyes to our sinful nature.

Just as Ray stated from Scripture, all of humanity operates under one of these two laws: The law of the spirit of life in Christ, or the law of sin and death. Most are under the law of sin and death due to a lack of knowledge. God's Elect were under the same law of sin and death also at one time, but now have been made free (from sin and death) by the law of Christ.

Adam and Eve were clueless (blind) to their "nakedness" (unrighteousness) and sinful nature even before they ate of the fruit. If Eve  supposedly sinned first because she was deceived, in what manner did sin "enter the world" through Adam first? How can the many that call Jesus Lord know their sinful, God hating, selfish nature unless they receive knowledge by the spiritual law?

Rom_7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Is the tree of knowledge of good and evil like the spiritual law of Christ through which we are able to see the beast within? Who knows what's good or evil? No, seriously, i wanna know.

Heb 5:13  Now everyone who lives on milk (physical law?) is inexperienced with the message about righteousness, because he is an infant.
Heb 5:14  But solid food (spiritual law? tree with solid fruit to eat?) is for the mature--for those whose senses have been trained to distinguish between good and evil.

I think the story of Adam and Eve is told in a way that reveals the plan of God for all humanity, but not everyone knows this. Most see the story as literal or historical (not saying the literal didn't happen), which I believe throws them off. The literal physical sinful Adam (representing sinful humanity) is first, the Second spiritual sinless Adam (humanity IN Christ) is Christ. First the physical, second the spiritual. We will be married to Christ, to become one in Christ. That is why it is said, when a man and woman marry, they become one. That is also why Adam and Eve are a type of Christ and the Church. Adam wasn't deceived like Eve was, but disobeyed God anyway, because he didn't want to be alone without Eve knowing she would die for disobeying God. Adam disobeyed and volunteered to die with his wife Eve like Christ obeyed and volunteered to die for His wife, the Church. I think Adam wanted to die for his own selfish reasons (which most of us would have done in his shoes), but Christ wanted to die to give us life, out of love for His wife, the Church.

What I wanna know is, what was sin before Adam and before the law? Was it still sin, but just not being judged? Did it only become sin when Adam disobeyed God knowing it would lead to his death even though Eve disobeyed God first because she was deceived by Satan?

How can the other Adams (the ones you claim to be before/during) even produce if God never created a woman except through Adam and brought her to Adam? (Gen 2:22-2:24) This was the first fleshly union where it is exclaimed that after in likeness a man will leave his dad and mom and be with his wife.

Literally speaking, how can Eve be a mother if she'd never had children yet?

Gen 3:20  And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

If she hadn't had children yet, it must mean the mother of all spiritually living. The CLV translates a bit better.

Gen 3:20 And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Jerusalem? I thought the mother of us all was Eve?

If Jesus didn't physically DIE and then resurrected, even your faith is in vain. Did you even believe that Jesus actually was in the flesh and was made a little lower than the angels physically? Or maybe Jesus Christ was never real to begin with and it was all an illusion?

Perhaps it is true then as in John 3:12 - "If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

I understand the emphasis on the spiritual yet you don't even believe the scriptures that talk about Adam. How will you even move onto the spiritual at all? Do you even understand your implication when we don't all die in Adam?

The "earthly things" don't matter, because they will pass away, because they are not important. Earthly things are temporary, like literal Adam. The earthly things Jesus is referring to were the physical miracles He performed, and the teaching of the physical law. They didn't know the physical law was actually spiritual. Jesus said the greater things are the spiritual law and the spiritual miracles. Remember, we are blessed because we haven't seen Jesus physically, but yet we still believe.

Joh_20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The earthly things Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus are the same things He's been trying to tell them for a long time through the prophets.

Joh 3:14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The earthly physical things (including the physical miracles of Christ) were mere types and shadows of the spiritual reality that is life in Christ. If we believe the story of Adam and Eve as literal, we will stay in the shadow of death and sin. Literal interpretations always causes divisions. If we believe it is spiritual, we step into the light of the life of Christ. The spiritual truth have brought us together here. We are no longer under the schoolmaster, we've all been there and done that. This is not a knock against the OP, I'm already convinced (based on my own studies) in my own mind about whether or not humans were here before Adam and Eve.

Is it important to know when sin entered the world? Or is it more important to know the sin in us? How can sin be removed if God doesn't first show us what our sin is? Do you always know when you sin? Will the ignorant be judged less harshly? Will those that know the truth (surely you will die/wages of sin is death) be judged more harshly if we disobey God like Adam did? The OT makes an example out of the Israelite that constantly disobeyed God. For whom were the Scriptures written for? These are just some questions floating around in my head.

 The story of Adam and Eve was the start of many great spiritual things to come, hidden in plain sight. I truly believe the stories in the OT, if taken literally, were meant to throw us off. It did just that for a time didn't it? It continues to do so for many today. So take it easy on those of us that do not understand or agree with a certain literal interpretation in the bible.

I'm so blessed to get a glimpse of the spiritual things to come, it's really my only hope. Also, sorry for the wall of text, didn't expect to write that much.

Maybe you should check the verses after 5:13. Paul is not contradicting himself, by one man mankind sinned. The story is symbolic as you have stated yet you don't even believe that there was even ONE ADAM so how can you even believe in the Christ? Should I start saying "people believed God sent two angels to save Lot but this what throws them off, people believed God blessed Abraham with a child but this is what throws them off..."

Are you kidding me with Gen 3:20, you realize it can also mean BECAME as someone stated earlier, but nevertheless Genesis is not written exactly chronologically as it re-iterates what happens during the creation of man and woman in Gen 2 from Gen 1, etc.

So does anyone actually believe the above verses that there was one Adam or do you not actually believe what the scriptures say? All this noise yet constantly dodging the question. You act like I don't understand the flesh profits nothing yet to not even believe the basic things actually happened is astounding to me.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 08, 2020, 04:52:45 PM
No matter what any of us believe or don't believe, Jesus is still LORD. The way the truth and the life. Alpha and the Omega, The Almighty!  Who is and was and is to come. 

Glory be to his holy name.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Dennis Vogel on March 08, 2020, 06:01:58 PM
Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

So who in the above verse are the un-dead? This clearly says some living humans are dead (figuratively speaking) and some are living (also figuratively speaking).


These verses define the living:

Psa 69:28  Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous

Mar 12:26  And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 
Mar 12:27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. 

'Living water' does not me literal water.

Jer 17:13  O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters

Zec 14:8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 


Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Heidi on March 08, 2020, 07:04:25 PM
Nshan, take a breath.  You say, "you don't even believe that there was even ONE ADAM".

None of us have said that.  My advice is that you read the thread from start to finish again and see if it gets clearer.

We need to be united in spirit.  Everything is first physical,  that implies that there WAS one Adam.  Absolutely correct and there ONE Christ which was physical but who had a spiritual message.

John 6:63 "The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life."

1 Cor 3:14  T"he natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned"

We are all on this site to discuss things in a unified manner, to learn from Ray's teachings and to encourage one another.

Love
Heidi




Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 08, 2020, 08:34:53 PM
Okay. Am I talking to brick walls, parrots, or humans? Do you all honestly even study to show yourselves proved?

Here are some quotations on what I'm challenging:
"There were definitely humans on the earth before Adam and Eve."

"Yes he did say there were people on the earth before Adam, but that is scientifically indisputable and not unscriptural."

"There were certainly other living beings before Adam was breathed life into. The difference is that from Adam onwards, we follow Christs ancestry."

Here are some scriptures (maybe read them this time?):
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Rom 5:12 - Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.
Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

So who in the above verse are the un-dead? This clearly says some living humans are dead (figuratively speaking) and some are living (also figuratively speaking).


These verses define the living:

Psa 69:28  Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Mar 12:26  And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

'Living water' does not me literal water.

Jer 17:13  O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

Zec 14:8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Again, more detraction. You act like I do not know these things. Do you even believe the basic scriptures above that Adam was FIRST FORMED? Or was he SECOND FORMED? If he was SECOND FORMED we CANNOT ALL BE IN ADAM AND CHRIST CAN'T DIE FOR ALL OF THOSE IN ADAM. I'll say it again, we can't all be in Adam and NOT BE.

Why is this so difficult for all of you to comprehend? Am I just smashing your golden cows? If you can't even understand or believe in the physical examples at all, how will you even move onto the spiritual AT ALL? I believe it to be blasphemy to cast others from the family of God, but perhaps you still wouldn't understand why I say this even if I gave you a thousand more scriptures. If you want to believe in the wisdom of this world or theories of men that's all fine and dandy but at least be honest about it... may God grant you all an actual heart for his family.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Heidi on March 08, 2020, 09:30:04 PM
Nshan,

I believe that God created Adam approx. 6000 years ago.  This is if we follow the chronology of Genesis.

In the book of the generations of Adam, in the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him.  The beginning of Jesus's human ancestry.

I am not disputing it at all.  I dont understand why you are getting so upset.

I believe that Adam was first formed and then Eve.

I believe that as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I believe all the scriptures you quoted.  They are all inspired by God.

Heidi

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Dave in Tenn on March 08, 2020, 11:41:08 PM
Nshaw, be careful with accusations that people who's understanding differs from yours don't believe the scripture.  The bible is a big books, and truth leans heavily on other truth.  And be careful accusing them of being blind parrots.  Other people in this thread have also posted scripture, but may not experience the same exasperation you've expressed when you don't see what they see.  It is the glory of kings to search these things out.

Moderator hat on:

It's fine if you disagree with Ray on the teaching that there were people before Adam.  I'd add only that your use of the phrase "other Adams" is not what Ray (or any other poster in this thtead, unless I've missed something) said.  To be honest, I also have disagreement though mine does not match yours.  Neither of us are allowed to press the point, and I try to give space to other people who also don't press their point.  Pressing the point comes awfully close to "teaching", even when we are certain we are right.   Maybe even especially then.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Dennis Vogel on March 09, 2020, 12:14:38 AM
You make good points but please consider everything.

1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All this is saying is we all die (all sin?) just like Adam. It does not say Adam was the first human.



1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And also first of the living? Eve is the mother of the living which implies the living started with her. Strong's says 'living' can mean "literally or figuratively."



Rom 5:12 - Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.
Yes, this is where sin entered into the world. And it makes my point right here: "and death by sin" - The 'dead' and 'sinners' are sometimes synonymous and interchanged at times.



1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Perhaps 'death' and 'alive' also have dual meanings here?



Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.

Gen 4:14  Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 

Gen 4:15  And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. 

Who is the 'everyone' and the 'they' that would slay Cain? His mother and father? Who would God take vengeance on sevenfold? Adam and Eve? There was no one except his mother and father at that time according to the church.

Gen 4:17  And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. 

Where did Cain's wife come from? It's not his sister because we have the generations of Adam as you point out.


I don't doubt that you are sincere and have your beliefs. But you have to consider everything.

I don't pretend to understand all of this and I still have questions, but we have to take everything into consideration.

The scriptures do not contradict. It just appears they do at times. We are both attempting to 'rightly divide the word of truth.' 

If you can biblically explain where the 'everyone', 'they', etc. came from then I'll take another look. But for now it makes more sense to me that the 'dead' and the 'living' can sometimes be figures of speech and not always literal.

But at the end of the day this topic does not mean a whole lot to me. It's more of a topic of interest. It does not move the ball forward that much, if at all.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 09, 2020, 06:15:22 AM
Alright, but to be fair I did not call anyone a blind parrot. I asked if they were brick walls, parrots, or humans. I used sarcasm to assume everyone was a person here. Which they are.

Heidi you stated earlier:
Quote
"There were certainly other living beings before Adam was breathed life into. The difference is that from Adam onwards, we follow Christs ancestry."

And now you state
Quote
"I believe that Adam was first formed and then Eve."

Out of all the humans of the Earth which is it? This is what I mean by contradiction. You can't believe both Adam being first formed and not. If by first formed you mean "well, not really at all or ever" then okay fine.

Dennis, I am taking everything into consideration. In Genesis chapter 4 Cain and Abel's births are emphasized. I highly doubt they were Adam and Eve's only children. It was much later until Adam had a child of his likeness: Seth. If Genesis included every last detail, and was purely chronological, it wouldn't make any sense as some details are re-stated multiple times. Many books do the same thing as some authors hide details or want their readers to figure things out themselves usually with big hints. I assume you know this. Also, Moses said that after his death the children of Israel would utterly corrupt themselves (Deut. 31:29) They barely found the book regarding the law years later ( 2 Ki 22:8 ). I will let you think about what that means. Genesis was written for the children of Israel (in the flesh and now in the spirit) but if you can't even believe the flesh...

Who do you think the sons of God are? Who do you think those people are? Acts 17:28. Do you realize how many years Adam and his children lived? Do you also realize that Adam's lineage is emphasized up to Noah but not all of his descendants?


From Ray in Why God Loves You:
`Luke's gospel traces Jesus' genealogy through His mother Mary's father. Does that genealogy end with Adam and Eve? No it doesn't. Let's read it:

"Which was the son of Enos [Enoch], which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son OF GOD!"

Likewise, ALL of our genealogies will take us back through our parents, grand parents, great grandparents, etc., etc., until we come to our Truly GREAT Father, not Adam, but GOD! WE ARE ALL OF THE RACE OF GOD!`

Quote
"There was no one except his mother and father at that time according to the church."

What does the above even prove? The church also believes King David was a king. Will you now believe that King David was never a king?

Also Dennis first you say for 1Co 15:22:
Quote
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All this is saying is we all die (all sin?) just like Adam. It does not say Adam was the first human.

Then all of a sudden scripture says:
1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Then all of a sudden, oh boy, God has a DAY (now don't go crazy on me, I know it's not TWENTY FOUR HOURS) in which he creates man and called him ADAM:
Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.

Your thoughts do not line up with what the scriptures even state. You say death by sin, yes but this was passed on from who? Adam. Are we all in Adam or not? The scriptures are not contradicting at all nor does it even appear that way.

Quote
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Perhaps 'death' and 'alive' also have dual meanings here?

You are right, and...?


Dave, I don't disagree with Ray's earlier writings in Why God Loves You as to our origin which matches the scripture. I use the term "other Adams" to emphasize the belief of those previous to Adam so that we are not all in Adam.


Quote
If you can biblically explain where the 'everyone', 'they', etc. came from then I'll take another look. But for now it makes more sense to me that the 'dead' and the 'living' can sometimes be figures of speech and not always literal.

I showed you scripture that explains exactly where humankind came from and you don't even humor it. We are all his offspring, Acts 17:28, from who?

If you want I will stop discussing this as now I realize not in all is this knowledge. But this is still just crazy to me. If you fear men and want to believe in whatever the wisdom of this world believes in about our origin that's fine, but at least be honest and not mix it up with what the scriptures actually say about who and what we are and will be.
 
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Dave in Tenn on March 09, 2020, 07:37:31 AM
Thank you for acknowledging our humanity.  That goes a long way.   ;D

Maybe Heidi can say that Adam was formed first and then Eve without contradicting because Paul is rightly dividing the word to write about the relationship of husband and wife, and not rehashing the creation account. Adam was formed before Eve.  End.

I won't cover all your points, and surely Heidi can express her thoughts better than I can.  You do continue to assume that your reading and understanding of Scripture is scripture and others are unbelievers...human, but unlearned unbelievers.  Water off a duck's back to me, but others might be more sensitive.   ;D

I doubt you'd find a soul here who doesn't recognize all humanity as offspring of God. If there are, they are in serious disagreement. 

Like all geneologies, the bible geneologies don't list every branch, and they are written after the fact.
He is the Father of us all, no matter what else.

Maybe, when I have time and can word it carefully I'll take you up on that challenge.  We'll see.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: octoberose on March 09, 2020, 04:21:17 PM
The thing about talking on this venue is that we can't hear each others tone or get answers immediately.  It is wonderful technology, but it has its limits.

I understand , I believe, where nshan is coming from.  I've pondered this over the years, and I also am not peaceful about some of the things Ray has said about early man. I wish as much as you do that he was still here to continue the conversation and to continue his knowledge and share that with us, but God did not give us more time .

If you don't mind, I have a few observations and a few questions.

 - genealogy's in scripture are not like Ancestry.com.  They only show you the principal players- those that went from Adam to Abraham, and those that went from Abraham to Christ.  Everyone else, and almost all women, are left out.  So, there's a lot we can't know.
-  according to the early Jewish historian Josephus, Adam and Eve were the parents of 33 sons and 23 daughters.  No, not scripture but Josephus is a usually a reliable source and that's a lot of people.
 There is no reason to think that there were only four people on the earth at the time Cain kills Able.   In fact, what are the chances that two people who are as healthy as people have ever been in the history of the world would only have two children until those children were adults?  We know that Adam lives 930 years and has many sons and daughters so I think it's likely that they had other children at the time of the first murder.
- I didn't know that the question of who did Cain marry was a part of the Scopes trial and when Clearance Darrow asked William Jennings Bryan who did Cain marry, Bryan could not answer.  I just don't want to be on the side of Darrow.
 - it was something like 400 years later that God put an end to close relatives marrying each other- which tells me they were doing it before that. Of course their DNA was not compromised the way it became - the further we get away from God's perfection in the garden the more compromised we are.
 - I do wonder why God says there was no one to tend the soil, so he then makes Adam.  Well, it's a curious thing to say if there was no one else around ( and we know agriculture came later in human history)   Ray brings this up  and I think it's curious and I don't have a good answer for it.  Could He have been referring to the animals or heavenly beings ? Maybe.
- I have never understood a question of Eve being the mother of all living.  Of course she's not Adams mother any more than Adam is her father.  She came out of Adam.  It's a relationship like no other and I don't think that disqualifies her from being the mother of all living beings ( but not living animals or plants, obviously ).  Isn't this how language works ? I am the mother in my family, but I am not my husbands mother ( as I have told him repeatedly !)  :)
 - if death came from one man, and there were other people on the earth, did they not die ? For how long did they not die ?   
- and lastly, why this matters- 1 Peter 3:15 " Always be ready to given an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."    This is a public ( not totally public but it's pretty public )  forum- people look for answers here and what we write can harm or it can help. It can enlighten or harden hearts, as God wills. 

 
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Heidi on March 09, 2020, 05:47:14 PM
My attempt at being ready to give an answer for why I believe and have the faith I now live by.

We cannot dispute science and DNA analysis.   The following is from ScienceMag.org:

  In the new study, researchers gathered blood samples from 200 living people in groups whose DNA is poorly known, including foragers and hunter-gatherers in Namibia and South Africa who speak Khoisan languages with click consonants. The authors analyzed the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), a type of DNA inherited only from mothers, and compared it to mtDNA in databases from more than 1000 other Africans, mostly from southern Africa. Then the researchers sorted how all the samples were related to each other on a family tree.

Confirming earlier studies, the data reveal that one mtDNA lineage in the Khoisan speakers—L0—is the oldest known mtDNA lineage in living people. The work also tightens the date of origin of L0 to about 200,000 years ago (with a range of error of 165,000 to 240,000; previous studies had a range of error from 150,000 to 250,000), the team reports today in Nature. Because today this lineage is found only in people in southern Africa, people carrying the L0 lineage lived in southern Africa and formed the ancestral population for all living humans, says lead author Vanessa Hayes, a genomicist at the Garvan Institute of Medical Research and the University of Sydney in Australia./i]

This was not the only point of reference that I studied either since there are many other reputable sources.  My reply will be too long if I have to quote all of them, but research for yourself.  DNA does not lie.

How do we explain this in the current discussion?  I would be interested in your replies.

To me it is clear that there were other humans before Adam was breathed life into, receiving Gods spirit specifically to show us where Christ decided to introduce himself to us and the start of his human genealogy.   

For all intent, that was our Genesis (approx  6000 years ago) those who believe that Christ had to empty himself of his glory on order to take on the likeness of his human form.  The first of his firstsfruits to whom he is now revealing this in the last days.

We are all made out of what God created and this creation event had a beginning.  For us, Gods sons and daughters it is Genesis.  Eventually it will be ALL.  Christ was Gods created original and we are being shown, taught and teached these truths so that if we continue in the faith of Christ we will be saved and adopted into his kingdom.

Heidi
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Musterseed on March 09, 2020, 06:37:13 PM
Hi Octoberose
I was reading about this today in ( More of Rays teaching transcripts on the forum)
An email about the creation account in Genesis. I will quote some of what Ray had to say about it ok.

Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve.
In Gen.1:6 God made ( Heb. asah) male and female.  In Gen. 2:6 God formed ( Heb. yatsar) Adam.
Two different Hebrew words , two different formations. Notice that it doesn’t say in chapter 2 vs. 3
that there was no man on earth at this time but rather that there was no man to till the ground.
There were men but they were hunters/ gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more
advanced human to cultivate the land. The phrase dress it and keep it is tend and cultivate.God is
teaching Adam to be a farmer.

There is more so you can read it. Hope it helps.

John 15:1
I am the true vine and my Father is the farmer.

God is our spiritual farmer.😀
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Musterseed on March 09, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Also I was just wondering about something you said about being a mother Octoberose.
Eve is the mother of all living, could this mean why God made females. Only females of any kind ie
plants. animals , fish, women.  Just a thought.
can conceive and give birth, 🤔

In Christ
Pamela’💕
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 09, 2020, 08:38:36 PM
Nshan-

While your frustration got the better of you, my patience for it got the better of me, and for that I am regretful. I haven't  posted a reply to you on the subject of other people, as it's not something I'm settled on, for some of the same reasons you've presented and more.  What I did reply to was what you said regarding Gen 3: 20 which you've ignored or were to frustrated to acknowledge. So I'm posting it again.

Quote
To me at least it doesn't take a lot to understand that Eve is the mother of all living BECAUSE she made living beings aka babies with Adam.

There is a problem with a literal enterpretation of Gen. 3:20 because Eve can only be Adam's mother symbolically. Unless you have witness to the contrary.

Quote
I believe you think the above verse Gen 3:20 doesn't say that because you don't even have multiple witnesses, so perhaps you don't even fully understand it or the implications of what you're saying (casting people off from the family of God).

Are these not witnesses?

God promised that through the Seed (i.e., descendant) of a woman (Eve) would come one who would crush the head of Satan. This is the first promise of a Savior to come into the world to save ALL MANKIND. Genesis 3:14–15

And this from Heidi.

witness is Roman's 1:2 "2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" other translations say " to his human nature" was a descendant of David.

Matt. 1:21

21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Could you please tell those of us who are in agreement with this understanding of Gen. 3:20,  what we don't fully understand and what the implications are, otherwise I'm left scratching my head?

Perhaps it is both literal and symbolic if we read it as, she will become or she became the mother of all living, as Octoberose explained about being a mother, but not the mother of her husbandI.  Although I'm struggling to see anything but the symbolism.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 09, 2020, 09:17:24 PM
On the subject of other people Ray himself said he wasn't taking a big stand on it. In fact he never wrote extensively on the subject as he did other subjects. Maybe if he had studied it a bit more he would have seen it differently. We will never know.

Ray said

Now I talked a little, not during the conference so much, but in some of the bull sessions in the evening we had. Where it was said, ‘were Adam and Eve the first humans?’ Well, I said, not necessarily and I gave numerous reasons for that. I thought of another one here just yesterday, so I’ll throw this out just for fun and just to think about. I’m not making some big stand on this.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,9130.0.html
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: octoberose on March 10, 2020, 01:16:29 AM
From Pamela:
Perhaps it is both literal and symbolic if we read it as, she will become or she became the mother of all living, as Octoberose explained about being a mother, but not the mother of her husbandI.  Although I'm struggling to see anything but the symbolism.
 Me-  Well, she was physically a mother, she begat the humans that begat all the other humans and the rest would be symbolic.  Isn't Abraham the Father of Many Nations ?

 Heidi, I just do not put my faith in science.  In fact, most of our world seems to worship the god of science and many scientist are atheist  because it takes faith to 'see' God.
 My husband has a PhD.  It is in a social science , not a physical science, but never the less you learn statistics and probability and you learn how studies are constructed and you see the flaws and you learn the scientific method. He would tell you that everything, weather it is in the guise of science or not, is up for interpretation and the bias of the one constructing the study. Even theoretical  mathematics is up for interpretation as they 'prove' and 'disprove' their theories .   In the case of the study that you referred to, it is easy to find it and easy to see that even among evolutionist that the study has its critics.  And which is it, 150,000 or 200,000 years ago?  They don't know because they are limited.  I won't link it here because I don't think we are suppose to, but look up AAAS, October 28, 2019  ' Experts questions study claiming to pinpoint birthplace of all humans'
 And on a different note,   I have read about carbon dating fossils and objects and how subjective that is, and if you were to date something  back to creation we must remember that carbon at the beginning of the world was probably quite different then carbon now ( think lots and lots of carbon compared to now).     I don't know, I'm not a scientist, I am just a believer .  I'm pretty simple .
  But what I really don't get is if God made other humans that would just stink for them. To be human but not good enough to be made in the image of God? That stinks.  What purpose did they serve ?
  Did Christ die for them?  And if, as Ray believed, the flood was only local, did they all die ?  If they were not related to the  first man, Adam, how can they be redeemed by the last man, Jesus ?
 I don't know. God will do as He does and we will be enlightened in the end.  I'm going to claim what I know from Scripture and the Spirit will either open my eyes or close them, as He wills.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Heidi on March 10, 2020, 02:33:56 AM
Octoberose, I agree with your statement "God will do as He does and we will be enlightened in the end.  I'm going to claim what I know from Scripture and the Spirit will either open my eyes or close them, as He wills."

In no shape or form does this discussion distract me from the spiritual truths I've learned on this site and that salvation is for all.

Heidi

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Joel on March 10, 2020, 02:53:23 AM
Actually this post and the scriptures I searched out have made me more sure that there are giants in the earth.
Numbers 13:33- And there we saw the giants, the son's of Anak, which were come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Deuteronomy 2:10-11The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; 11-Which also were accounted giants, as Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
Deuteronomy 9:2-A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!

Deuteronomy 3:11-For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.
13-And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of the giants.

Joshua 15:8-And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward.
18:16-And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel,
Joshua 17:15-And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
1 Samuel 17:4-And there came out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.  (about 9ft 3 inches)

2 Samuel 21: 16-22
1 Chronicles 20:4-8

I believe that there was a primitive earth, and that many things that happened during that time has been dug up and put on display by the scientific world. I think the bones first found in the Neander valley belonged to a small population that was swallowed up by a larger population. Much like the way the people of Europe came to America, killed, brought disease, and intermarried with the people of the area.

Jude 6-And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day.

My question is when in history did this first happen, and what was going on at that time?


Joel

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Dennis Vogel on March 10, 2020, 11:50:55 AM
Science tells us there were people like us (not Neanderthals) 20k, 50k and some even say 100 thousand years ago. This is a long time before Adam and Eve according to 'church' doctrine which tells us the world is only 6,000 years old.

'Church' doctrine also says Adam and Eve were the very first humans.

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 10, 2020, 07:09:45 PM
Science tells us there were people like us (not Neanderthals) 20k, 50k and some even say 100 thousand years ago. This is a long time before Adam and Eve according to 'church' doctrine which tells us the world is only 6,000 years old.

'Church' doctrine also says Adam and Eve were the very first humans.

We know Ray diligently studied God's word, so no one can accuse him of not showing himself worthy. It's for this reason I cannot disregard what Ray saw. I wasn't in the bull sessions where he most likely disclosed more on the subject that I've not been able to see. Maybe he explained how God did that in relation to when Adam was created approximately 6000 years ago. Or is that 6,000 years representative of when he brought Adam into the garden?

I've considered the first man Adam was created many years ago, and the Adam in Genesis 2 is just the account of how God created man.  And the Adam in the garden was a descendant, chosen from among the humanity God created.  A starting point in his   plan, of salvation for all. If that were true, then all are in Adam. Problem solved. :D
Maybe this is just to simple.

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 10, 2020, 07:15:28 PM
Quote
Wanda
Perhaps it is both literal and symbolic if we read it as, she will become or she became the mother of all living, as Octoberose explained about being a mother, but not the mother of her husband.  Although I'm struggling to see anything but the symbolism.
 Me-  Well, she was physically a mother, she begat the humans that begat all the other humans and the rest would be symbolic.  Isn't Abraham the Father of Many Nations ?

In that regard Eve was without question the mother of all living. And yes, everything else would be symbolic, as you pointed out.

It also explains Nshan's frustration, in relation to Gen.3:20,  although no one was denying Eve wasn't the mother of all living, but Gen. 3:20 Is symbolic of something bigger, and that's  Jesus.  Ray always said everything is about one thing, and it took me awhile to understand what that actually meant. From Genesis to the Revelations, it's all about Jesus.

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 10, 2020, 08:04:49 PM

Quote
Actually this post and the scriptures I searched out have made me more sure that there are giants in the earth.
Numbers 13:33- And there we saw the giants, the son's of Anak, which were come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight

Joel -

This is why I was interested in the thread.

At some point this must have occurred through selective breeding. We only have factual information of them in biblical history as you know. though. According to biblical accounts many were killed in wars, In Deut. 3:11 and later in the book of Numbers and Joshua, Og is called the last of the Rephaim. After he died none were left to procreate.

When I look at the size of basketball players today, they all look like giants to me.  Imagin what they would look like with  some added muscle mass. The tallest was a Chinese player who was 7′ 9″  weighed 370 lbs. With a shoe size of 20. I checked out the size of others, and they range from "6 7" to "7 7". Imagin if they found mates this size, there would be giants in the earth again. :D
 










Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Heidi on March 10, 2020, 09:15:59 PM
Further thoughts that I've had regarding the bible and Genesis.

The bible is written for us.  The "us" is Gods kingdom of heavens,  the chosen.  It was never meant to be understood by the many.

Remember a spiritual truth we learned about the "few and the many"? 

Well,  I consider the genealogy of Adam to be the starting point of "the few" who are the called, the chosen.  This is the mystery that has been revealed to us in the last days.  The prophet's saw it from afar and prophesied about the things that are now being revealed to us.

Listen, God does not change, He does not lie and the sum of His word is the truth.

I believe that the glory yet to be revealed is so much greater than we can ever imagine.   We are being shown things that even Angel's wish to understand.

Why is it so difficult to think that (if I have to use a concept) pre-Adam humans are not also part of Gods many later?  The bible is a huge enigma that only can be revealed and understood if God allows us.

God is doing a strange work in us now, we only see glimpses but when He comes we will be like Him and know everything.  He is the one that writes His laws on our hearts and in our minds.

Blessed is he who have not seen Christ and believes, that is the faith we now have in Christ Jesus that directs us.  We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: indianabob on March 11, 2020, 12:00:11 AM
Hi Wanda,
In regard to this message only, please consider the following.
= =
It seems that we are making this a lot harder than it needs to be.
When Israelis, to whom this book was exclusively written prior to Jesus' birth, read the description of the events in Gen 3:20 they would not even think that Eve would be the mother of Adam. That would not make any sense. Why?
Because Adam had no mother. Adam was a distinct, unique creation of God and everyone understood that from Gen 1:26.
=
It is elementary then that Adam would not mistakenly be included in anyone's thoughts in that regard.
=
Just as it is plain that Jesus had no human father. The scripture is clear on that point. It is not symbolic. Jesus also was a distinct, unique creation of Father God in the womb of a woman. He had no genetic blood connection to Adam's progeny. A child's blood stream is separate from the mother's blood stream. Does not mix.
Kindly offered. Bob
=
It is then obvious from the context that the word "was" is better translated "became" in the future, the mother of all subsequent persons made in the image of God. H1961 in Strong's Concordance

Quote
Wanda
Perhaps it is both literal and symbolic if we read it as, she will become or she became the mother of all living, as Octoberose explained about being a mother, but not the mother of her husband.  Although I'm struggling to see anything but the symbolism.
 Me-  Well, she was physically a mother, she begat the humans that begat all the other humans and the rest would be symbolic.  Isn't Abraham the Father of Many Nations ?

In that regard Eve was without question the mother of all living. And yes, everything else would be symbolic, as you pointed out.

It also explains Nshan's frustration, in relation to Gen.3:20,  although no one was denying Eve wasn't the mother of all living, but Gen. 3:20 Is symbolic of something bigger, and that's  Jesus.  Ray always said everything is about one thing, and it took me awhile to understand what that actually meant. From Genesis to the Revelations, it's all about Jesus.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 11, 2020, 12:25:36 AM
Quote
We cannot dispute science and DNA analysis

Heidi, the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. Nevertheless, I don't think you understand how many theories have been thrown out. The truly scientific/inquisitive mind is all about disputing and challenging what we think we know and our long-held beliefs.

Quote
There is a problem with a literal enterpretation of Gen. 3:20 because Eve can only be Adam's mother symbolically. Unless you have witness to the contrary.

There was no woman before Eve, hence no mother. God took it out of Adam to create her. She was the first human mom which is why she is the mother of all living. I'm not saying it is not symbolic as many of you really want to believe. I guess I can say it ten thousand more times and you won't believe the scriptures. How can you even move onto spiritual things if you cannot even believe the physical?

Quote
Could you please tell those of us who are in agreement with this understanding of Gen. 3:20,  what we don't fully understand and what the implications are, otherwise I'm left scratching my head?

Please actually read all that I have said earlier, as I have answered and explained much already. I'm even restating things here.

Quote
Science tells us there were people like us (not Neanderthals) 20k, 50k and some even say 100 thousand years ago. This is a long time before Adam and Eve according to 'church' doctrine which tells us the world is only 6,000 years old.

'Church' doctrine also says Adam and Eve were the very first humans.

Dennis, the wisdom (not the stupidity) of this world is foolishness to God. Science is the observation and study of natural phenomena. A minority of the churches even really agree on the 6000 years, some believe in evolution or other man-made doctrines and do err. They want to believe the world and God, but they cannot have both. Either God has placed the Old Dragon to deceive or not. Do you know what a deceiver does? Consider what a deceiver and his children do or would do. Also, you do realize that according to church doctrine Jesus Christ was made manifest in the flesh and born of a virgin? The church also seems to agree that we all need air to breath.

Quote
And the Adam in the garden was a descendant, chosen from among the humanity God created.  A starting point in his   plan, of salvation for all. If that were true, then all are in Adam. Problem solved. :D
Yes, problem solved! Not. Now, we're not all in Adam now, and he is no longer first formed as the scriptures I presented earlier state. Now Jesus Christ is only going to save some. And what about Eve since she was taken out of this Adam? I guess there were and still are no women now.

Quote
The bible is written for us.  The "us" is Gods kingdom of heavens,  the chosen.  It was never meant to be understood by the many.
God is not a respector of persons. He will give all an understanding.


Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: nshan on March 11, 2020, 12:45:37 AM
Hi Octoberose
I was reading about this today in ( More of Rays teaching transcripts on the forum)
An email about the creation account in Genesis. I will quote some of what Ray had to say about it ok.

Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve.
In Gen.1:6 God made ( Heb. asah) male and female.  In Gen. 2:6 God formed ( Heb. yatsar) Adam.
Two different Hebrew words , two different formations. Notice that it doesn’t say in chapter 2 vs. 3
that there was no man on earth at this time but rather that there was no man to till the ground.
There were men but they were hunters/ gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more
advanced human to cultivate the land. The phrase dress it and keep it is tend and cultivate.God is
teaching Adam to be a farmer.

There is more so you can read it. Hope it helps.

John 15:1
I am the true vine and my Father is the farmer.

God is our spiritual farmer.😀

Hey Musterseed, the scripture quotes are a little off but:
Look up Strong's H3335 for yatsar, H6213 for asah and Strong's H120 and H121 (Adam).

Genesis 2 is an emphasis on the creation of Adam in Genesis 1. The beginning of Genesis 5 also recaps this creation as the generations of Adam in the likeness of God. Look carefully at Gen 5:1-2. There could be no other men because God explained he just created them in his image.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 11, 2020, 05:53:04 PM

Quote
And the Adam in the garden was a descendant, chosen from among the humanity God created.  A starting point in his   plan, of salvation for all. If that were true, then all are in Adam. Problem solved.

Yes, problem solved! Not. Now, we're not all in Adam now, and he is no longer first formed as the scriptures I presented earlier state. Now Jesus Christ is only going to save some. And what about Eve since she was taken out of this Adam? I guess there were and still are no women now.

In Genesis 1 God created both male and female. If he chose a male from among the humanity he created, it's logical to assume he also chose a female. If that were true they would all be of one blood, and created in the image of God,  but where that theory falls on it's face,  women was not taken out of man  until he had been in the garden for some time, so it's obvious, to me anyway, there were no women out there on the earth somewhere.  And we know there wasn't two seperate creations of humanity, because God does not lie.

As I said it was something I had considered, but like other things I speculated on,  I couldn't come to any scriptural conclution. Honestly it's not important to me and not something I've spent much time on. I'm content in believing there was one man Adam and one women Eve, because it's what God has conclusively revealed, and everything else is conjecture. I'm pretty sure Ray knew that too, otherwise he would have expounded on the subject.

We all search out things pertaining to God, it's what humans do in our quest to know him better.  Where we go with any of it should be rooted in decernment and not conjecture. Just my opinion.







 



Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Musterseed on March 11, 2020, 06:52:54 PM
From LOF pt. 10, free will

Quote from Ray regarding Adam and Eve

“ I can’t wait to meet Adam and Eve, up close and personal. They are kin. You know?
And don’t think for one second that they won’t be in the Family of God. I guarantee you
the scriptures say that they will, albeit by way of the purifying spiritual pond of spiritual
fire, which is the second spiritual death.
Adam and Eve will have a position of high honor throughout all eternity. Without the first man Adam
there would never have been the second and last man Adam, Jesus Christ, the Savior of All.
For as in Adam, ALL; so in Christ, ALL.;

I say Amen to that and to quote Ray again” Spirit is thicker than blood”

Gen 1:26
Then God said
Let us make man in our image and after our likeness,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Eph. 4:24
and to put on the new self,  reacted after the likeness of God in true righteousness and
holiness.
Eph. 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God
prepared beforehand ,that we should walk in them.

It’s a long suffering process ,and for those who overcome this world  and finish the
race the rewards are great but none more than having the opportunity to help
our Lord and Savior, save the rest of humanity who are suffering so.
We MUST ( thats a very important word) keep the unity of the spirit and pray
Thy will be done. Come Lord Jesus, all Praise and Glory.

Out with the old and in with the new😁💕





Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: ZekeSr on March 11, 2020, 06:57:15 PM
Dennis, the wisdom (not the stupidity) of this world is foolishness to God. Science is the observation and study of natural phenomena. A minority of the churches even really agree on the 6000 years, some believe in evolution or other man-made doctrines and do err. They want to believe the world and God, but they cannot have both. Either God has placed the Old Dragon to deceive or not. Do you know what a deceiver does? Consider what a deceiver and his children do or would do. Also, you do realize that according to church doctrine Jesus Christ was made manifest in the flesh and born of a virgin? The church also seems to agree that we all need air to breath.

Quote

I remember watching a fundamentalist on TV a few years ago saying that dinosaur fossils were put there by God to "confound the wise" and make them look foolish.

In 1690 Giordano Bruno was burned alive at the stake for heretically believing that there were exoplanets revolving around the stars which he claimed were actually other suns.

When Scripture and real proven science do not seem to mesh it is neither science nor Scripture that are wrong. It is misunderstanding, dogma, and quite often mistranslation. That has been one of the biggest take-aways I have gotten from Ray. And I do remember him stating that a proper translation of Scripture was in the tense of CREATING HUMANITY is GOD in His Image. It is an ongoing work. We are NOT the image of God either in appearance or spirit... including Adam and Eve. I wish I could remember where... perhaps someone else knows.

Mike





 
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 11, 2020, 07:16:40 PM
Bob and Nshan,

I am not disputing Eve was the mother of all who would be born. Nor that she is the first mother. I understood that from a very young age and have never found any scriptural reason for not continuing in that belief.  Is that not believing in the physicall? It was the truth of this, that led me to the spiritual understanding that I now have.  Are we not to move on from milk to the meat of God's word which is spiritual, isn't that the natural progression of being in Christ?
To only emphasize the physical or the spiritual,  is what I believe is causing confusion and frustration.  I'm guilty of the latter.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 11, 2020, 08:28:02 PM
Amen and thanks for posting this Pamela.

Who wouldn't want to talk with Adam and Eve,  the first created in the image of God. I can only imagin the close relationship Adam must have had with God while in the Garden, and how much he must have missed that time alone, learning from and talking to him. I know how badly I feel if I don't get time alone with God even for one day, although I don't  believe God was ever very far away from him.

Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: ZekeSr on March 11, 2020, 10:31:19 PM
Here is an excerpt from one of Ray's emails:

Ray

Almighty God has protected His perfect inerrant Infallible alive Word through all ages. His Word has not been lost He said Heaven and earth shall pass away but my Words shall never fade away. God says in Psalms Thy Word is ever settled in heaven. Friend Jesus in Luke chapter 16 says their was a certain rich man and in hell he lifted up his eyes in torments.
You can say what you want and play a wise fool if you like for the Bible says professing themselves to be wise they became fools. Their is most definitely a place of hell. Only a man that God has reprobated who is void of judgment and understanding could come up with the theory that you have. I laughed pretty good as I read how you get around the truths of Gods Bible. Death is coming for you and friend if the Holy Ghost don't open your eyes that place that you try to explain away will certainly be your eternal destiny.


[Ray Replies]
Dear Nameless:

My friend, are you always so dogmatic about things you know absolutely nothing about? In three short sentences you change "God's Word" into "God's Bible." As though they were one and the same thing!!! God's WORD is INERRANT! Men's BIBLES are filled with ERROR! I was at a large Bible Book Store yesterday. There are HUNDREDS of translations. Why is that? Are the ALL INERRANT? If they were, then they would all be translated with the SAME WORDS!

Even the revered King James Version is not a pure 'translation' out of the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, but rather is a revision of other translations including the Catholic Latin Vulgate by Jerome. Did you know that the 1611 King James Bibles contained fourteen additional books that are no longer found in the modern King James Bible? Which edition was "inerrant," the one WITH the fourteen additional books or the ones WITHOUT the fourteen additional books? We are not talking about a word or two here, we are talking about WHOLE BOOKS disappearing from the King James Version!!!

Mike
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 12, 2020, 08:08:49 PM
Hi Octoberose
I was reading about this today in ( More of Rays teaching transcripts on the forum)
An email about the creation account in Genesis. I will quote some of what Ray had to say about it ok.

Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve.
In Gen.1:6 God made ( Heb. asah) male and female.  In Gen. 2:6 God formed ( Heb. yatsar) Adam.
Two different Hebrew words , two different formations. Notice that it doesn’t say in chapter 2 vs. 3
that there was no man on earth at this time but rather that there was no man to till the ground.
There were men but they were hunters/ gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more
advanced human to cultivate the land. The phrase dress it and keep it is tend and cultivate.God is
teaching Adam to be a farmer.

There is more so you can read it. Hope it helps.

John 15:1
I am the true vine and my Father is the farmer.

God is our spiritual farmer.

Hi Pam,

Being fair to Ray and Considering what Octoberose said about this forum being read publically, and being ready to give an answer when asked, I kept thinking on what you've posted.

Some might think Ray was being influenced by science, but I don't think that's necessarily true, I think God's word influenced his thinking about science.  Considering how diligently Ray dug into scripture, I believe he always put God's word above everything.  I didn't see this until last night while trying to go to sleep, but it became clear what he saw was not some far fetched speculation nor unscriptural, because Ray never went outside the bounds of God's word in anything he publically revealed. I find it hard to believe he didn't think of this from every scriptural angle, because that's how he was. His teachings are a witness to this.

I'm understanding him to say in Genesis 1 God created humanity, male and female.  And in Genesis 2 a continuation of this creation process in creating Adam the first man. In what way are we to understand this,  the very first and only man created, or the first in God's plan?  We know that Jesus was not litterally the last man,  as we read in 1 Corinthians 15:45,  so perhaps Adam was not literally the first man.  If all humanity was created from the same material,  one blood, all would be genetically connected and in the image of God.  In this regard, mankind, male and female could be living in the earth before Adam was created approximately 6000 years ago. So it is possible Ray was on to something, but didn't consider it so important as to devote hours of study to, like other things he considered more important.

If this is true,  Heidi would be correct in what she sees about the many and the few, as well as what others are seeing.  All is possible with God,  Everything else I thought I understood about God was wrong, perhaps I should add this to the many others.  Something I remember Dave from Tenn saying,  "We don't all know what we think we do'. How true that is. I also know this would upset some who understand Genesis 3:20 to be literal, but it would also lend credibility to what others are seeing as symbolic.

And yes, I've considered someone can find a flaw in my understanding, but more importantly those who spent time discussing this with Ray might add something I didn't think of.






Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Musterseed on March 12, 2020, 09:51:05 PM
Thanks for your input Wanda. God indeed is the ultimate influencer, in all
things. All is of God and all means all.😊

God said your thoughts are not my thoughts and your ways are not my ways.
 
I agree with Heidi also about the many and the few and Dave’s statement as well.

I think we are still very primitive actually , but I sure do love listening to Ray teach
about the science of this universe. I can’t believe I’m reading the laws of thermodynamics
and about atoms and protons and molecules etc and enjoying it. Someone pinch me.😃
I love our Lord so much , He is so awesome in so many ways and I know we all feel
the same way.

Yes Ray worked very hard, a vessel of honor doing the works he was created to do.
He raised the dead, the spiritually dead. How many of us were sent to Bible Truths
by our own fabled free will? Duh 🙄 😂

As for the study of the account of the creation of humanity in Genesis, I think it’s
multilayered and filled with spiritual lessons. I’m still in awe of everything.

God Bless all of you and a big thanks  to Dennis, Rene and Dave. We are very grateful
for you. 💕

In Christ
Pamela
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: ZekeSr on March 13, 2020, 09:25:39 AM
Regardless of an atheistic view seemingly being a requirement for MEMBERS of the scientific community (and almost a religion in and of itself), TRUE PROVEN SCIENCE in-and-of-itself is not the enemy of religion. On the other hand… misinterpreted, misunderstood, closed minded religious dogma is, and always has been, the enemy of science.
One of the things I always found fascinating and different about Ray… different from anyone else that I know of… was his ability and willingness to use TRUE PROVEN SCIENCE as another tool (not the only tool, but a steppingstone) to tenaciously dig deeper into Scripture and patiently wait for God to begin to open his eyes to the valid meaning, and often the subtext, behind the words.

Mike
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Musterseed on March 13, 2020, 01:25:27 PM
Amen Mike
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: indianabob on March 13, 2020, 03:06:11 PM
Regardless of an atheistic view seemingly being a requirement for MEMBERS of the scientific community (and almost a religion in and of itself), TRUE PROVEN SCIENCE in-and-of-itself is not the enemy of religion. On the other hand… misinterpreted, misunderstood, closed minded religious dogma is, and always has been, the enemy of science.
One of the things I always found fascinating and different about Ray… different from anyone else that I know of… was his ability and willingness to use TRUE PROVEN SCIENCE as another tool (not the only tool, but a steppingstone) to tenaciously dig deeper into Scripture and patiently wait for God to begin to open his eyes to the valid meaning, and often the subtext, behind the words.

Mike
=  =  =
Hi Mike
Thanks for the observation.  The struggle to learn as much as we can seems never to end.
Bob
* *
In the mathematical sense, despite all the years of researching the way the universe works, science has proved nothing.

Every theoretical model is a good description of the universe around us, at least within some range of scales that it is useful.

But exploring into new territories reveals deficiencies that lower our belief in whether a particular description continues to accurately represent our experiments, while our belief in alternatives can grow.

Will we ultimately know the truth and hold the laws that truly govern the workings of the cosmos within our hands?

While our degree of belief in some mathematical models may get stronger and stronger, without an infinite amount of testing, how can we ever be sure they are reality?

I think it is best to leave the last word to one of the greatest physicists, Richard Feynman, on what being a scientist is all about:

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything"

 ;) Of course we have the advantage on Mr. Feynman in that we know that God loves us...by the gift of faith.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 13, 2020, 06:01:36 PM
Quote
One of the things I always found fascinating and different about Ray… different from anyone else that I know of… was his ability and willingness to use TRUE PROVEN SCIENCE as another tool (not the only tool, but a steppingstone) to tenaciously dig deeper into Scripture and patiently wait for God to begin to open his eyes to the valid meaning, and often the subtext, behind the words.


From personal experience, God can use anything of this world to enlighten our understanding of his word,  Ray did not take his call to teach God's word lightly, and relied on him greatly for understanding. Why wouldn't God use the truth of science to reach those who believe God and science aren't in agreement, or disprove the bad science? God can and does use everything for his good work.
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 15, 2020, 07:31:28 PM
I'm  reading the book of John and one thing led to another until I arrived where I am.

Genesis 1 CLV

1 Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.
 2  Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water.

I never saw this before. God first  created and at some point after, the earth became a chaos? If Ray talked about this somewhere , I would be grateful if someone could direct me to the information.

Isaiah 45:18 tells us God did not create the earth a chaos and formed it to be indwelt.
This seems to imply that mankind was in the earth prior to what plunged the earth into chaos, and possibly after.

Then in Genesis 3-4

3 And saying is the Elohim, "Become light!" And it is becoming light.
4  And seeing is the Elohim the light, that it is good. And separating is the Elohim between the light and the darkness.

In Genesis 1:3-4 I'm seeing that this light is Jesus sent to bring order out of this darkness and chaos.

There are many places a mind can go with this. For me,  one of the first is past civilations, followed by scientific discoveries  God is always blowing my mind.





Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Musterseed on March 15, 2020, 09:05:31 PM
Transcript #7,,,, Genesis and the Big Bang 😃
Title: Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Post by: Wanda on March 16, 2020, 08:57:37 PM
Thanks Pam☺