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Author Topic: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science  (Read 5114 times)

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Wanda

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2020, 04:52:45 PM »

No matter what any of us believe or don't believe, Jesus is still LORD. The way the truth and the life. Alpha and the Omega, The Almighty!  Who is and was and is to come. 

Glory be to his holy name.
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2020, 06:01:58 PM »

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

So who in the above verse are the un-dead? This clearly says some living humans are dead (figuratively speaking) and some are living (also figuratively speaking).


These verses define the living:

Psa 69:28  Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous

Mar 12:26  And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 
Mar 12:27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. 

'Living water' does not me literal water.

Jer 17:13  O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters

Zec 14:8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 


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Heidi

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2020, 07:04:25 PM »

Nshan, take a breath.  You say, "you don't even believe that there was even ONE ADAM".

None of us have said that.  My advice is that you read the thread from start to finish again and see if it gets clearer.

We need to be united in spirit.  Everything is first physical,  that implies that there WAS one Adam.  Absolutely correct and there ONE Christ which was physical but who had a spiritual message.

John 6:63 "The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life."

1 Cor 3:14  T"he natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned"

We are all on this site to discuss things in a unified manner, to learn from Ray's teachings and to encourage one another.

Love
Heidi




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nshan

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2020, 08:34:53 PM »

Okay. Am I talking to brick walls, parrots, or humans? Do you all honestly even study to show yourselves proved?

Here are some quotations on what I'm challenging:
"There were definitely humans on the earth before Adam and Eve."

"Yes he did say there were people on the earth before Adam, but that is scientifically indisputable and not unscriptural."

"There were certainly other living beings before Adam was breathed life into. The difference is that from Adam onwards, we follow Christs ancestry."

Here are some scriptures (maybe read them this time?):
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Rom 5:12 - Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.
Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

So who in the above verse are the un-dead? This clearly says some living humans are dead (figuratively speaking) and some are living (also figuratively speaking).


These verses define the living:

Psa 69:28  Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Mar 12:26  And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

'Living water' does not me literal water.

Jer 17:13  O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

Zec 14:8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Again, more detraction. You act like I do not know these things. Do you even believe the basic scriptures above that Adam was FIRST FORMED? Or was he SECOND FORMED? If he was SECOND FORMED we CANNOT ALL BE IN ADAM AND CHRIST CAN'T DIE FOR ALL OF THOSE IN ADAM. I'll say it again, we can't all be in Adam and NOT BE.

Why is this so difficult for all of you to comprehend? Am I just smashing your golden cows? If you can't even understand or believe in the physical examples at all, how will you even move onto the spiritual AT ALL? I believe it to be blasphemy to cast others from the family of God, but perhaps you still wouldn't understand why I say this even if I gave you a thousand more scriptures. If you want to believe in the wisdom of this world or theories of men that's all fine and dandy but at least be honest about it... may God grant you all an actual heart for his family.
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Psalm 17:8 - Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings.
Psalm 27:13-14; Psalm 34:18-19;
Psalm 17:15 - As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Heidi

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2020, 09:30:04 PM »

Nshan,

I believe that God created Adam approx. 6000 years ago.  This is if we follow the chronology of Genesis.

In the book of the generations of Adam, in the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him.  The beginning of Jesus's human ancestry.

I am not disputing it at all.  I dont understand why you are getting so upset.

I believe that Adam was first formed and then Eve.

I believe that as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I believe all the scriptures you quoted.  They are all inspired by God.

Heidi

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For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring"

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2020, 11:41:08 PM »

Nshaw, be careful with accusations that people who's understanding differs from yours don't believe the scripture.  The bible is a big books, and truth leans heavily on other truth.  And be careful accusing them of being blind parrots.  Other people in this thread have also posted scripture, but may not experience the same exasperation you've expressed when you don't see what they see.  It is the glory of kings to search these things out.

Moderator hat on:

It's fine if you disagree with Ray on the teaching that there were people before Adam.  I'd add only that your use of the phrase "other Adams" is not what Ray (or any other poster in this thtead, unless I've missed something) said.  To be honest, I also have disagreement though mine does not match yours.  Neither of us are allowed to press the point, and I try to give space to other people who also don't press their point.  Pressing the point comes awfully close to "teaching", even when we are certain we are right.   Maybe even especially then.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 12:51:29 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2020, 12:14:38 AM »

You make good points but please consider everything.

1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All this is saying is we all die (all sin?) just like Adam. It does not say Adam was the first human.



1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And also first of the living? Eve is the mother of the living which implies the living started with her. Strong's says 'living' can mean "literally or figuratively."



Rom 5:12 - Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.
Yes, this is where sin entered into the world. And it makes my point right here: "and death by sin" - The 'dead' and 'sinners' are sometimes synonymous and interchanged at times.



1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Perhaps 'death' and 'alive' also have dual meanings here?



Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.

Gen 4:14  Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 

Gen 4:15  And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. 

Who is the 'everyone' and the 'they' that would slay Cain? His mother and father? Who would God take vengeance on sevenfold? Adam and Eve? There was no one except his mother and father at that time according to the church.

Gen 4:17  And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. 

Where did Cain's wife come from? It's not his sister because we have the generations of Adam as you point out.


I don't doubt that you are sincere and have your beliefs. But you have to consider everything.

I don't pretend to understand all of this and I still have questions, but we have to take everything into consideration.

The scriptures do not contradict. It just appears they do at times. We are both attempting to 'rightly divide the word of truth.' 

If you can biblically explain where the 'everyone', 'they', etc. came from then I'll take another look. But for now it makes more sense to me that the 'dead' and the 'living' can sometimes be figures of speech and not always literal.

But at the end of the day this topic does not mean a whole lot to me. It's more of a topic of interest. It does not move the ball forward that much, if at all.
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nshan

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2020, 06:15:22 AM »

Alright, but to be fair I did not call anyone a blind parrot. I asked if they were brick walls, parrots, or humans. I used sarcasm to assume everyone was a person here. Which they are.

Heidi you stated earlier:
Quote
"There were certainly other living beings before Adam was breathed life into. The difference is that from Adam onwards, we follow Christs ancestry."

And now you state
Quote
"I believe that Adam was first formed and then Eve."

Out of all the humans of the Earth which is it? This is what I mean by contradiction. You can't believe both Adam being first formed and not. If by first formed you mean "well, not really at all or ever" then okay fine.

Dennis, I am taking everything into consideration. In Genesis chapter 4 Cain and Abel's births are emphasized. I highly doubt they were Adam and Eve's only children. It was much later until Adam had a child of his likeness: Seth. If Genesis included every last detail, and was purely chronological, it wouldn't make any sense as some details are re-stated multiple times. Many books do the same thing as some authors hide details or want their readers to figure things out themselves usually with big hints. I assume you know this. Also, Moses said that after his death the children of Israel would utterly corrupt themselves (Deut. 31:29) They barely found the book regarding the law years later ( 2 Ki 22:8 ). I will let you think about what that means. Genesis was written for the children of Israel (in the flesh and now in the spirit) but if you can't even believe the flesh...

Who do you think the sons of God are? Who do you think those people are? Acts 17:28. Do you realize how many years Adam and his children lived? Do you also realize that Adam's lineage is emphasized up to Noah but not all of his descendants?


From Ray in Why God Loves You:
`Luke's gospel traces Jesus' genealogy through His mother Mary's father. Does that genealogy end with Adam and Eve? No it doesn't. Let's read it:

"Which was the son of Enos [Enoch], which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son OF GOD!"

Likewise, ALL of our genealogies will take us back through our parents, grand parents, great grandparents, etc., etc., until we come to our Truly GREAT Father, not Adam, but GOD! WE ARE ALL OF THE RACE OF GOD!`

Quote
"There was no one except his mother and father at that time according to the church."

What does the above even prove? The church also believes King David was a king. Will you now believe that King David was never a king?

Also Dennis first you say for 1Co 15:22:
Quote
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All this is saying is we all die (all sin?) just like Adam. It does not say Adam was the first human.

Then all of a sudden scripture says:
1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Then all of a sudden, oh boy, God has a DAY (now don't go crazy on me, I know it's not TWENTY FOUR HOURS) in which he creates man and called him ADAM:
Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.

Your thoughts do not line up with what the scriptures even state. You say death by sin, yes but this was passed on from who? Adam. Are we all in Adam or not? The scriptures are not contradicting at all nor does it even appear that way.

Quote
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Perhaps 'death' and 'alive' also have dual meanings here?

You are right, and...?


Dave, I don't disagree with Ray's earlier writings in Why God Loves You as to our origin which matches the scripture. I use the term "other Adams" to emphasize the belief of those previous to Adam so that we are not all in Adam.


Quote
If you can biblically explain where the 'everyone', 'they', etc. came from then I'll take another look. But for now it makes more sense to me that the 'dead' and the 'living' can sometimes be figures of speech and not always literal.

I showed you scripture that explains exactly where humankind came from and you don't even humor it. We are all his offspring, Acts 17:28, from who?

If you want I will stop discussing this as now I realize not in all is this knowledge. But this is still just crazy to me. If you fear men and want to believe in whatever the wisdom of this world believes in about our origin that's fine, but at least be honest and not mix it up with what the scriptures actually say about who and what we are and will be.
 
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Psalm 17:8 - Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings.
Psalm 27:13-14; Psalm 34:18-19;
Psalm 17:15 - As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2020, 07:37:31 AM »

Thank you for acknowledging our humanity.  That goes a long way.   ;D

Maybe Heidi can say that Adam was formed first and then Eve without contradicting because Paul is rightly dividing the word to write about the relationship of husband and wife, and not rehashing the creation account. Adam was formed before Eve.  End.

I won't cover all your points, and surely Heidi can express her thoughts better than I can.  You do continue to assume that your reading and understanding of Scripture is scripture and others are unbelievers...human, but unlearned unbelievers.  Water off a duck's back to me, but others might be more sensitive.   ;D

I doubt you'd find a soul here who doesn't recognize all humanity as offspring of God. If there are, they are in serious disagreement. 

Like all geneologies, the bible geneologies don't list every branch, and they are written after the fact.
He is the Father of us all, no matter what else.

Maybe, when I have time and can word it carefully I'll take you up on that challenge.  We'll see.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 07:44:42 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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octoberose

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2020, 04:21:17 PM »

The thing about talking on this venue is that we can't hear each others tone or get answers immediately.  It is wonderful technology, but it has its limits.

I understand , I believe, where nshan is coming from.  I've pondered this over the years, and I also am not peaceful about some of the things Ray has said about early man. I wish as much as you do that he was still here to continue the conversation and to continue his knowledge and share that with us, but God did not give us more time .

If you don't mind, I have a few observations and a few questions.

 - genealogy's in scripture are not like Ancestry.com.  They only show you the principal players- those that went from Adam to Abraham, and those that went from Abraham to Christ.  Everyone else, and almost all women, are left out.  So, there's a lot we can't know.
-  according to the early Jewish historian Josephus, Adam and Eve were the parents of 33 sons and 23 daughters.  No, not scripture but Josephus is a usually a reliable source and that's a lot of people.
 There is no reason to think that there were only four people on the earth at the time Cain kills Able.   In fact, what are the chances that two people who are as healthy as people have ever been in the history of the world would only have two children until those children were adults?  We know that Adam lives 930 years and has many sons and daughters so I think it's likely that they had other children at the time of the first murder.
- I didn't know that the question of who did Cain marry was a part of the Scopes trial and when Clearance Darrow asked William Jennings Bryan who did Cain marry, Bryan could not answer.  I just don't want to be on the side of Darrow.
 - it was something like 400 years later that God put an end to close relatives marrying each other- which tells me they were doing it before that. Of course their DNA was not compromised the way it became - the further we get away from God's perfection in the garden the more compromised we are.
 - I do wonder why God says there was no one to tend the soil, so he then makes Adam.  Well, it's a curious thing to say if there was no one else around ( and we know agriculture came later in human history)   Ray brings this up  and I think it's curious and I don't have a good answer for it.  Could He have been referring to the animals or heavenly beings ? Maybe.
- I have never understood a question of Eve being the mother of all living.  Of course she's not Adams mother any more than Adam is her father.  She came out of Adam.  It's a relationship like no other and I don't think that disqualifies her from being the mother of all living beings ( but not living animals or plants, obviously ).  Isn't this how language works ? I am the mother in my family, but I am not my husbands mother ( as I have told him repeatedly !)  :)
 - if death came from one man, and there were other people on the earth, did they not die ? For how long did they not die ?   
- and lastly, why this matters- 1 Peter 3:15 " Always be ready to given an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."    This is a public ( not totally public but it's pretty public )  forum- people look for answers here and what we write can harm or it can help. It can enlighten or harden hearts, as God wills. 

 
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Heidi

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2020, 05:47:14 PM »

My attempt at being ready to give an answer for why I believe and have the faith I now live by.

We cannot dispute science and DNA analysis.   The following is from ScienceMag.org:

  In the new study, researchers gathered blood samples from 200 living people in groups whose DNA is poorly known, including foragers and hunter-gatherers in Namibia and South Africa who speak Khoisan languages with click consonants. The authors analyzed the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), a type of DNA inherited only from mothers, and compared it to mtDNA in databases from more than 1000 other Africans, mostly from southern Africa. Then the researchers sorted how all the samples were related to each other on a family tree.

Confirming earlier studies, the data reveal that one mtDNA lineage in the Khoisan speakers—L0—is the oldest known mtDNA lineage in living people. The work also tightens the date of origin of L0 to about 200,000 years ago (with a range of error of 165,000 to 240,000; previous studies had a range of error from 150,000 to 250,000), the team reports today in Nature. Because today this lineage is found only in people in southern Africa, people carrying the L0 lineage lived in southern Africa and formed the ancestral population for all living humans, says lead author Vanessa Hayes, a genomicist at the Garvan Institute of Medical Research and the University of Sydney in Australia./i]

This was not the only point of reference that I studied either since there are many other reputable sources.  My reply will be too long if I have to quote all of them, but research for yourself.  DNA does not lie.

How do we explain this in the current discussion?  I would be interested in your replies.

To me it is clear that there were other humans before Adam was breathed life into, receiving Gods spirit specifically to show us where Christ decided to introduce himself to us and the start of his human genealogy.   

For all intent, that was our Genesis (approx  6000 years ago) those who believe that Christ had to empty himself of his glory on order to take on the likeness of his human form.  The first of his firstsfruits to whom he is now revealing this in the last days.

We are all made out of what God created and this creation event had a beginning.  For us, Gods sons and daughters it is Genesis.  Eventually it will be ALL.  Christ was Gods created original and we are being shown, taught and teached these truths so that if we continue in the faith of Christ we will be saved and adopted into his kingdom.

Heidi
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 05:52:10 PM by Heidi »
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Musterseed

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2020, 06:37:13 PM »

Hi Octoberose
I was reading about this today in ( More of Rays teaching transcripts on the forum)
An email about the creation account in Genesis. I will quote some of what Ray had to say about it ok.

Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve.
In Gen.1:6 God made ( Heb. asah) male and female.  In Gen. 2:6 God formed ( Heb. yatsar) Adam.
Two different Hebrew words , two different formations. Notice that it doesn’t say in chapter 2 vs. 3
that there was no man on earth at this time but rather that there was no man to till the ground.
There were men but they were hunters/ gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more
advanced human to cultivate the land. The phrase dress it and keep it is tend and cultivate.God is
teaching Adam to be a farmer.

There is more so you can read it. Hope it helps.

John 15:1
I am the true vine and my Father is the farmer.

God is our spiritual farmer.😀
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Musterseed

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2020, 06:42:37 PM »

Also I was just wondering about something you said about being a mother Octoberose.
Eve is the mother of all living, could this mean why God made females. Only females of any kind ie
plants. animals , fish, women.  Just a thought.
can conceive and give birth, 🤔

In Christ
Pamela’💕
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Wanda

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2020, 08:38:36 PM »

Nshan-

While your frustration got the better of you, my patience for it got the better of me, and for that I am regretful. I haven't  posted a reply to you on the subject of other people, as it's not something I'm settled on, for some of the same reasons you've presented and more.  What I did reply to was what you said regarding Gen 3: 20 which you've ignored or were to frustrated to acknowledge. So I'm posting it again.

Quote
To me at least it doesn't take a lot to understand that Eve is the mother of all living BECAUSE she made living beings aka babies with Adam.

There is a problem with a literal enterpretation of Gen. 3:20 because Eve can only be Adam's mother symbolically. Unless you have witness to the contrary.

Quote
I believe you think the above verse Gen 3:20 doesn't say that because you don't even have multiple witnesses, so perhaps you don't even fully understand it or the implications of what you're saying (casting people off from the family of God).

Are these not witnesses?

God promised that through the Seed (i.e., descendant) of a woman (Eve) would come one who would crush the head of Satan. This is the first promise of a Savior to come into the world to save ALL MANKIND. Genesis 3:14–15

And this from Heidi.

witness is Roman's 1:2 "2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" other translations say " to his human nature" was a descendant of David.

Matt. 1:21

21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Could you please tell those of us who are in agreement with this understanding of Gen. 3:20,  what we don't fully understand and what the implications are, otherwise I'm left scratching my head?

Perhaps it is both literal and symbolic if we read it as, she will become or she became the mother of all living, as Octoberose explained about being a mother, but not the mother of her husbandI.  Although I'm struggling to see anything but the symbolism.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 02:34:47 AM by Wanda »
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Wanda

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2020, 09:17:24 PM »

On the subject of other people Ray himself said he wasn't taking a big stand on it. In fact he never wrote extensively on the subject as he did other subjects. Maybe if he had studied it a bit more he would have seen it differently. We will never know.

Ray said

Now I talked a little, not during the conference so much, but in some of the bull sessions in the evening we had. Where it was said, ‘were Adam and Eve the first humans?’ Well, I said, not necessarily and I gave numerous reasons for that. I thought of another one here just yesterday, so I’ll throw this out just for fun and just to think about. I’m not making some big stand on this.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,9130.0.html
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

octoberose

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2020, 01:16:29 AM »

From Pamela:
Perhaps it is both literal and symbolic if we read it as, she will become or she became the mother of all living, as Octoberose explained about being a mother, but not the mother of her husbandI.  Although I'm struggling to see anything but the symbolism.
 Me-  Well, she was physically a mother, she begat the humans that begat all the other humans and the rest would be symbolic.  Isn't Abraham the Father of Many Nations ?

 Heidi, I just do not put my faith in science.  In fact, most of our world seems to worship the god of science and many scientist are atheist  because it takes faith to 'see' God.
 My husband has a PhD.  It is in a social science , not a physical science, but never the less you learn statistics and probability and you learn how studies are constructed and you see the flaws and you learn the scientific method. He would tell you that everything, weather it is in the guise of science or not, is up for interpretation and the bias of the one constructing the study. Even theoretical  mathematics is up for interpretation as they 'prove' and 'disprove' their theories .   In the case of the study that you referred to, it is easy to find it and easy to see that even among evolutionist that the study has its critics.  And which is it, 150,000 or 200,000 years ago?  They don't know because they are limited.  I won't link it here because I don't think we are suppose to, but look up AAAS, October 28, 2019  ' Experts questions study claiming to pinpoint birthplace of all humans'
 And on a different note,   I have read about carbon dating fossils and objects and how subjective that is, and if you were to date something  back to creation we must remember that carbon at the beginning of the world was probably quite different then carbon now ( think lots and lots of carbon compared to now).     I don't know, I'm not a scientist, I am just a believer .  I'm pretty simple .
  But what I really don't get is if God made other humans that would just stink for them. To be human but not good enough to be made in the image of God? That stinks.  What purpose did they serve ?
  Did Christ die for them?  And if, as Ray believed, the flood was only local, did they all die ?  If they were not related to the  first man, Adam, how can they be redeemed by the last man, Jesus ?
 I don't know. God will do as He does and we will be enlightened in the end.  I'm going to claim what I know from Scripture and the Spirit will either open my eyes or close them, as He wills.
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Heidi

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2020, 02:33:56 AM »

Octoberose, I agree with your statement "God will do as He does and we will be enlightened in the end.  I'm going to claim what I know from Scripture and the Spirit will either open my eyes or close them, as He wills."

In no shape or form does this discussion distract me from the spiritual truths I've learned on this site and that salvation is for all.

Heidi

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For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring"

Joel

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2020, 02:53:23 AM »

Actually this post and the scriptures I searched out have made me more sure that there are giants in the earth.
Numbers 13:33- And there we saw the giants, the son's of Anak, which were come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Deuteronomy 2:10-11The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; 11-Which also were accounted giants, as Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
Deuteronomy 9:2-A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!

Deuteronomy 3:11-For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.
13-And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of the giants.

Joshua 15:8-And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward.
18:16-And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel,
Joshua 17:15-And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
1 Samuel 17:4-And there came out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.  (about 9ft 3 inches)

2 Samuel 21: 16-22
1 Chronicles 20:4-8

I believe that there was a primitive earth, and that many things that happened during that time has been dug up and put on display by the scientific world. I think the bones first found in the Neander valley belonged to a small population that was swallowed up by a larger population. Much like the way the people of Europe came to America, killed, brought disease, and intermarried with the people of the area.

Jude 6-And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day.

My question is when in history did this first happen, and what was going on at that time?


Joel

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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2020, 11:50:55 AM »

Science tells us there were people like us (not Neanderthals) 20k, 50k and some even say 100 thousand years ago. This is a long time before Adam and Eve according to 'church' doctrine which tells us the world is only 6,000 years old.

'Church' doctrine also says Adam and Eve were the very first humans.

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Wanda

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Re: Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2020, 07:09:45 PM »

Science tells us there were people like us (not Neanderthals) 20k, 50k and some even say 100 thousand years ago. This is a long time before Adam and Eve according to 'church' doctrine which tells us the world is only 6,000 years old.

'Church' doctrine also says Adam and Eve were the very first humans.

We know Ray diligently studied God's word, so no one can accuse him of not showing himself worthy. It's for this reason I cannot disregard what Ray saw. I wasn't in the bull sessions where he most likely disclosed more on the subject that I've not been able to see. Maybe he explained how God did that in relation to when Adam was created approximately 6000 years ago. Or is that 6,000 years representative of when he brought Adam into the garden?

I've considered the first man Adam was created many years ago, and the Adam in Genesis 2 is just the account of how God created man.  And the Adam in the garden was a descendant, chosen from among the humanity God created.  A starting point in his   plan, of salvation for all. If that were true, then all are in Adam. Problem solved. :D
Maybe this is just to simple.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 08:39:07 PM by Wanda »
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12
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