Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science

[Wanda]

Wanda
Perhaps it is both literal and symbolic if we read it as, she will become or she became the mother of all living, as Octoberose explained about being a mother, but not the mother of her husband.  Although I'm struggling to see anything but the symbolism.
 Me-  Well, she was physically a mother, she begat the humans that begat all the other humans and the rest would be symbolic.  Isn't Abraham the Father of Many Nations ?

In that regard Eve was without question the mother of all living. And yes, everything else would be symbolic, as you pointed out.

It also explains Nshan's frustration, in relation to Gen.3:20,  although no one was denying Eve wasn't the mother of all living, but Gen. 3:20 Is symbolic of something bigger, and that's  Jesus.  Ray always said everything is about one thing, and it took me awhile to understand what that actually meant. From Genesis to the Revelations, it's all about Jesus.

[Wanda]

Actually this post and the scriptures I searched out have made me more sure that there are giants in the earth.
Numbers 13:33- And there we saw the giants, the son's of Anak, which were come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight

Joel -

This is why I was interested in the thread.

At some point this must have occurred through selective breeding. We only have factual information of them in biblical history as you know. though. According to biblical accounts many were killed in wars, In Deut. 3:11 and later in the book of Numbers and Joshua, Og is called the last of the Rephaim. After he died none were left to procreate.

When I look at the size of basketball players today, they all look like giants to me.  Imagin what they would look like with  some added muscle mass. The tallest was a Chinese player who was 7′ 9″  weighed 370 lbs. With a shoe size of 20. I checked out the size of others, and they range from "6 7" to "7 7". Imagin if they found mates this size, there would be giants in the earth again.
 

[Heidi]

Further thoughts that I've had regarding the bible and Genesis.

The bible is written for us.  The "us" is Gods kingdom of heavens,  the chosen.  It was never meant to be understood by the many.

Remember a spiritual truth we learned about the "few and the many"? 

Well,  I consider the genealogy of Adam to be the starting point of "the few" who are the called, the chosen.  This is the mystery that has been revealed to us in the last days.  The prophet's saw it from afar and prophesied about the things that are now being revealed to us.

Listen, God does not change, He does not lie and the sum of His word is the truth.

I believe that the glory yet to be revealed is so much greater than we can ever imagine.   We are being shown things that even Angel's wish to understand.

Why is it so difficult to think that (if I have to use a concept) pre-Adam humans are not also part of Gods many later?  The bible is a huge enigma that only can be revealed and understood if God allows us.

God is doing a strange work in us now, we only see glimpses but when He comes we will be like Him and know everything.  He is the one that writes His laws on our hearts and in our minds.

Blessed is he who have not seen Christ and believes, that is the faith we now have in Christ Jesus that directs us.  We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

[indianabob]

Hi Wanda,
In regard to this message only, please consider the following.
= =
It seems that we are making this a lot harder than it needs to be.
When Israelis, to whom this book was exclusively written prior to Jesus' birth, read the description of the events in Gen 3:20 they would not even think that Eve would be the mother of Adam. That would not make any sense. Why?
Because Adam had no mother. Adam was a distinct, unique creation of God and everyone understood that from Gen 1:26.
=
It is elementary then that Adam would not mistakenly be included in anyone's thoughts in that regard.
=
Just as it is plain that Jesus had no human father. The scripture is clear on that point. It is not symbolic. Jesus also was a distinct, unique creation of Father God in the womb of a woman. He had no genetic blood connection to Adam's progeny. A child's blood stream is separate from the mother's blood stream. Does not mix.
Kindly offered. Bob
=
It is then obvious from the context that the word "was" is better translated "became" in the future, the mother of all subsequent persons made in the image of God. H1961 in Strong's Concordance

Wanda
Perhaps it is both literal and symbolic if we read it as, she will become or she became the mother of all living, as Octoberose explained about being a mother, but not the mother of her husband.  Although I'm struggling to see anything but the symbolism.
Me-  Well, she was physically a mother, she begat the humans that begat all the other humans and the rest would be symbolic.  Isn't Abraham the Father of Many Nations ?

In that regard Eve was without question the mother of all living. And yes, everything else would be symbolic, as you pointed out.

It also explains Nshan's frustration, in relation to Gen.3:20,  although no one was denying Eve wasn't the mother of all living, but Gen. 3:20 Is symbolic of something bigger, and that's  Jesus.  Ray always said everything is about one thing, and it took me awhile to understand what that actually meant. From Genesis to the Revelations, it's all about Jesus.

[nshan]

We cannot dispute science and DNA analysis

Heidi, the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. Nevertheless, I don't think you understand how many theories have been thrown out. The truly scientific/inquisitive mind is all about disputing and challenging what we think we know and our long-held beliefs.

There is a problem with a literal enterpretation of Gen. 3:20 because Eve can only be Adam's mother symbolically. Unless you have witness to the contrary.

There was no woman before Eve, hence no mother. God took it out of Adam to create her. She was the first human mom which is why she is the mother of all living. I'm not saying it is not symbolic as many of you really want to believe. I guess I can say it ten thousand more times and you won't believe the scriptures. How can you even move onto spiritual things if you cannot even believe the physical?

Could you please tell those of us who are in agreement with this understanding of Gen. 3:20,  what we don't fully understand and what the implications are, otherwise I'm left scratching my head?

Please actually read all that I have said earlier, as I have answered and explained much already. I'm even restating things here.

Science tells us there were people like us (not Neanderthals) 20k, 50k and some even say 100 thousand years ago. This is a long time before Adam and Eve according to 'church' doctrine which tells us the world is only 6,000 years old.

'Church' doctrine also says Adam and Eve were the very first humans.

Dennis, the wisdom (not the stupidity) of this world is foolishness to God. Science is the observation and study of natural phenomena. A minority of the churches even really agree on the 6000 years, some believe in evolution or other man-made doctrines and do err. They want to believe the world and God, but they cannot have both. Either God has placed the Old Dragon to deceive or not. Do you know what a deceiver does? Consider what a deceiver and his children do or would do. Also, you do realize that according to church doctrine Jesus Christ was made manifest in the flesh and born of a virgin? The church also seems to agree that we all need air to breath.

And the Adam in the garden was a descendant, chosen from among the humanity God created.  A starting point in his   plan, of salvation for all. If that were true, then all are in Adam. Problem solved.

Yes, problem solved! Not. Now, we're not all in Adam now, and he is no longer first formed as the scriptures I presented earlier state. Now Jesus Christ is only going to save some. And what about Eve since she was taken out of this Adam? I guess there were and still are no women now.

The bible is written for us.  The "us" is Gods kingdom of heavens,  the chosen.  It was never meant to be understood by the many.

God is not a respector of persons. He will give all an understanding.

[nshan]

Hi Octoberose
I was reading about this today in ( More of Rays teaching transcripts on the forum)
An email about the creation account in Genesis. I will quote some of what Ray had to say about it ok.

Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve.
In Gen.1:6 God made ( Heb. asah) male and female.  In Gen. 2:6 God formed ( Heb. yatsar) Adam.
Two different Hebrew words , two different formations. Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 vs. 3
that there was no man on earth at this time but rather that there was no man to till the ground.
There were men but they were hunters/ gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more
advanced human to cultivate the land. The phrase dress it and keep it is tend and cultivate.God is
teaching Adam to be a farmer.

There is more so you can read it. Hope it helps.

John 15:1
I am the true vine and my Father is the farmer.

God is our spiritual farmer.😀

Hey Musterseed, the scripture quotes are a little off but:
Look up Strong's H3335 for yatsar, H6213 for asah and Strong's H120 and H121 (Adam).

Genesis 2 is an emphasis on the creation of Adam in Genesis 1. The beginning of Genesis 5 also recaps this creation as the generations of Adam in the likeness of God. Look carefully at Gen 5:1-2. There could be no other men because God explained he just created them in his image.

[Wanda]

And the Adam in the garden was a descendant, chosen from among the humanity God created.  A starting point in his   plan, of salvation for all. If that were true, then all are in Adam. Problem solved.

Yes, problem solved! Not. Now, we're not all in Adam now, and he is no longer first formed as the scriptures I presented earlier state. Now Jesus Christ is only going to save some. And what about Eve since she was taken out of this Adam? I guess there were and still are no women now.

In Genesis 1 God created both male and female. If he chose a male from among the humanity he created, it's logical to assume he also chose a female. If that were true they would all be of one blood, and created in the image of God,  but where that theory falls on it's face,  women was not taken out of man  until he had been in the garden for some time, so it's obvious, to me anyway, there were no women out there on the earth somewhere.  And we know there wasn't two seperate creations of humanity, because God does not lie.

As I said it was something I had considered, but like other things I speculated on,  I couldn't come to any scriptural conclution. Honestly it's not important to me and not something I've spent much time on. I'm content in believing there was one man Adam and one women Eve, because it's what God has conclusively revealed, and everything else is conjecture. I'm pretty sure Ray knew that too, otherwise he would have expounded on the subject.

We all search out things pertaining to God, it's what humans do in our quest to know him better.  Where we go with any of it should be rooted in decernment and not conjecture. Just my opinion.







 

[Musterseed]

From LOF pt. 10, free will

Quote from Ray regarding Adam and Eve

" I can't wait to meet Adam and Eve, up close and personal. They are kin. You know?
And don't think for one second that they won't be in the Family of God. I guarantee you
the scriptures say that they will, albeit by way of the purifying spiritual pond of spiritual
fire, which is the second spiritual death.
Adam and Eve will have a position of high honor throughout all eternity. Without the first man Adam
there would never have been the second and last man Adam, Jesus Christ, the Savior of All.
For as in Adam, ALL; so in Christ, ALL.;

I say Amen to that and to quote Ray again" Spirit is thicker than blood"

Gen 1:26
Then God said
Let us make man in our image and after our likeness,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Eph. 4:24
and to put on the new self,  reacted after the likeness of God in true righteousness and
holiness.
Eph. 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God
prepared beforehand ,that we should walk in them.

It's a long suffering process ,and for those who overcome this world  and finish the
race the rewards are great but none more than having the opportunity to help
our Lord and Savior, save the rest of humanity who are suffering so.
We MUST ( thats a very important word) keep the unity of the spirit and pray
Thy will be done. Come Lord Jesus, all Praise and Glory.

Out with the old and in with the new😁💕

[ZekeSr]

Dennis, the wisdom (not the stupidity) of this world is foolishness to God. Science is the observation and study of natural phenomena. A minority of the churches even really agree on the 6000 years, some believe in evolution or other man-made doctrines and do err. They want to believe the world and God, but they cannot have both. Either God has placed the Old Dragon to deceive or not. Do you know what a deceiver does? Consider what a deceiver and his children do or would do. Also, you do realize that according to church doctrine Jesus Christ was made manifest in the flesh and born of a virgin? The church also seems to agree that we all need air to breath.

I remember watching a fundamentalist on TV a few years ago saying that dinosaur fossils were put there by God to "confound the wise" and make them look foolish.

In 1690 Giordano Bruno was burned alive at the stake for heretically believing that there were exoplanets revolving around the stars which he claimed were actually other suns.

When Scripture and real proven science do not seem to mesh it is neither science nor Scripture that are wrong. It is misunderstanding, dogma, and quite often mistranslation. That has been one of the biggest take-aways I have gotten from Ray. And I do remember him stating that a proper translation of Scripture was in the tense of CREATING HUMANITY is GOD in His Image. It is an ongoing work. We are NOT the image of God either in appearance or spirit... including Adam and Eve. I wish I could remember where... perhaps someone else knows.

Mike

[Wanda]

Bob and Nshan,

I am not disputing Eve was the mother of all who would be born. Nor that she is the first mother. I understood that from a very young age and have never found any scriptural reason for not continuing in that belief.  Is that not believing in the physicall? It was the truth of this, that led me to the spiritual understanding that I now have.  Are we not to move on from milk to the meat of God's word which is spiritual, isn't that the natural progression of being in Christ?
To only emphasize the physical or the spiritual,  is what I believe is causing confusion and frustration.  I'm guilty of the latter.

[Wanda]

Amen and thanks for posting this Pamela.

Who wouldn't want to talk with Adam and Eve,  the first created in the image of God. I can only imagin the close relationship Adam must have had with God while in the Garden, and how much he must have missed that time alone, learning from and talking to him. I know how badly I feel if I don't get time alone with God even for one day, although I don't  believe God was ever very far away from him.

[ZekeSr]

Here is an excerpt from one of Ray's emails:

Ray

Almighty God has protected His perfect inerrant Infallible alive Word through all ages. His Word has not been lost He said Heaven and earth shall pass away but my Words shall never fade away. God says in Psalms Thy Word is ever settled in heaven. Friend Jesus in Luke chapter 16 says their was a certain rich man and in hell he lifted up his eyes in torments.
You can say what you want and play a wise fool if you like for the Bible says professing themselves to be wise they became fools. Their is most definitely a place of hell. Only a man that God has reprobated who is void of judgment and understanding could come up with the theory that you have. I laughed pretty good as I read how you get around the truths of Gods Bible. Death is coming for you and friend if the Holy Ghost don't open your eyes that place that you try to explain away will certainly be your eternal destiny.


[Ray Replies]
Dear Nameless:

My friend, are you always so dogmatic about things you know absolutely nothing about? In three short sentences you change "God's Word" into "God's Bible." As though they were one and the same thing!!! God's WORD is INERRANT! Men's BIBLES are filled with ERROR! I was at a large Bible Book Store yesterday. There are HUNDREDS of translations. Why is that? Are the ALL INERRANT? If they were, then they would all be translated with the SAME WORDS!

Even the revered King James Version is not a pure 'translation' out of the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, but rather is a revision of other translations including the Catholic Latin Vulgate by Jerome. Did you know that the 1611 King James Bibles contained fourteen additional books that are no longer found in the modern King James Bible? Which edition was "inerrant," the one WITH the fourteen additional books or the ones WITHOUT the fourteen additional books? We are not talking about a word or two here, we are talking about WHOLE BOOKS disappearing from the King James Version!!!

Mike

[Wanda]

Hi Octoberose
I was reading about this today in ( More of Rays teaching transcripts on the forum)
An email about the creation account in Genesis. I will quote some of what Ray had to say about it ok.

Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve.
In Gen.1:6 God made ( Heb. asah) male and female.  In Gen. 2:6 God formed ( Heb. yatsar) Adam.
Two different Hebrew words , two different formations. Notice that it doesn’t say in chapter 2 vs. 3
that there was no man on earth at this time but rather that there was no man to till the ground.
There were men but they were hunters/ gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more
advanced human to cultivate the land. The phrase dress it and keep it is tend and cultivate.God is
teaching Adam to be a farmer.

There is more so you can read it. Hope it helps.

John 15:1
I am the true vine and my Father is the farmer.

God is our spiritual farmer.

Hi Pam,

Being fair to Ray and Considering what Octoberose said about this forum being read publically, and being ready to give an answer when asked, I kept thinking on what you've posted.

Some might think Ray was being influenced by science, but I don't think that's necessarily true, I think God's word influenced his thinking about science.  Considering how diligently Ray dug into scripture, I believe he always put God's word above everything.  I didn't see this until last night while trying to go to sleep, but it became clear what he saw was not some far fetched speculation nor unscriptural, because Ray never went outside the bounds of God's word in anything he publically revealed. I find it hard to believe he didn't think of this from every scriptural angle, because that's how he was. His teachings are a witness to this.

I'm understanding him to say in Genesis 1 God created humanity, male and female.  And in Genesis 2 a continuation of this creation process in creating Adam the first man. In what way are we to understand this,  the very first and only man created, or the first in God's plan?  We know that Jesus was not litterally the last man,  as we read in 1 Corinthians 15:45,  so perhaps Adam was not literally the first man.  If all humanity was created from the same material,  one blood, all would be genetically connected and in the image of God.  In this regard, mankind, male and female could be living in the earth before Adam was created approximately 6000 years ago. So it is possible Ray was on to something, but didn't consider it so important as to devote hours of study to, like other things he considered more important.

If this is true,  Heidi would be correct in what she sees about the many and the few, as well as what others are seeing.  All is possible with God,  Everything else I thought I understood about God was wrong, perhaps I should add this to the many others.  Something I remember Dave from Tenn saying,  "We don't all know what we think we do'. How true that is. I also know this would upset some who understand Genesis 3:20 to be literal, but it would also lend credibility to what others are seeing as symbolic.

And yes, I've considered someone can find a flaw in my understanding, but more importantly those who spent time discussing this with Ray might add something I didn't think of.

[Musterseed]

Thanks for your input Wanda. God indeed is the ultimate influencer, in all
things. All is of God and all means all.😊

God said your thoughts are not my thoughts and your ways are not my ways.

I agree with Heidi also about the many and the few and Dave's statement as well.

I think we are still very primitive actually , but I sure do love listening to Ray teach
about the science of this universe. I can't believe I'm reading the laws of thermodynamics
and about atoms and protons and molecules etc and enjoying it. Someone pinch me.😃
I love our Lord so much , He is so awesome in so many ways and I know we all feel
the same way.

Yes Ray worked very hard, a vessel of honor doing the works he was created to do.
He raised the dead, the spiritually dead. How many of us were sent to Bible Truths
by our own fabled free will? Duh 🙄 😂

As for the study of the account of the creation of humanity in Genesis, I think it's
multilayered and filled with spiritual lessons. I'm still in awe of everything.

God Bless all of you and a big thanks  to Dennis, Rene and Dave. We are very grateful
for you. 💕

In Christ
Pamela

[ZekeSr]

Regardless of an atheistic view seemingly being a requirement for MEMBERS of the scientific community (and almost a religion in and of itself), TRUE PROVEN SCIENCE in-and-of-itself is not the enemy of religion. On the other hand... misinterpreted, misunderstood, closed minded religious dogma is, and always has been, the enemy of science.
One of the things I always found fascinating and different about Ray... different from anyone else that I know of... was his ability and willingness to use TRUE PROVEN SCIENCE as another tool (not the only tool, but a steppingstone) to tenaciously dig deeper into Scripture and patiently wait for God to begin to open his eyes to the valid meaning, and often the subtext, behind the words.

Mike

[Musterseed]

Amen Mike

[indianabob]

Regardless of an atheistic view seemingly being a requirement for MEMBERS of the scientific community (and almost a religion in and of itself), TRUE PROVEN SCIENCE in-and-of-itself is not the enemy of religion. On the other hand... misinterpreted, misunderstood, closed minded religious dogma is, and always has been, the enemy of science.
One of the things I always found fascinating and different about Ray... different from anyone else that I know of... was his ability and willingness to use TRUE PROVEN SCIENCE as another tool (not the only tool, but a steppingstone) to tenaciously dig deeper into Scripture and patiently wait for God to begin to open his eyes to the valid meaning, and often the subtext, behind the words.

Mike

=  =  =
Hi Mike
Thanks for the observation.  The struggle to learn as much as we can seems never to end.
Bob
* *
In the mathematical sense, despite all the years of researching the way the universe works, science has proved nothing.

Every theoretical model is a good description of the universe around us, at least within some range of scales that it is useful.

But exploring into new territories reveals deficiencies that lower our belief in whether a particular description continues to accurately represent our experiments, while our belief in alternatives can grow.

Will we ultimately know the truth and hold the laws that truly govern the workings of the cosmos within our hands?

While our degree of belief in some mathematical models may get stronger and stronger, without an infinite amount of testing, how can we ever be sure they are reality?

I think it is best to leave the last word to one of the greatest physicists, Richard Feynman, on what being a scientist is all about:

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything"

Of course we have the advantage on Mr. Feynman in that we know that God loves us...by the gift of faith.

[Wanda]

One of the things I always found fascinating and different about Ray... different from anyone else that I know of... was his ability and willingness to use TRUE PROVEN SCIENCE as another tool (not the only tool, but a steppingstone) to tenaciously dig deeper into Scripture and patiently wait for God to begin to open his eyes to the valid meaning, and often the subtext, behind the words.

From personal experience, God can use anything of this world to enlighten our understanding of his word,  Ray did not take his call to teach God's word lightly, and relied on him greatly for understanding. Why wouldn't God use the truth of science to reach those who believe God and science aren't in agreement, or disprove the bad science? God can and does use everything for his good work.

[Wanda]

I'm  reading the book of John and one thing led to another until I arrived where I am.

Genesis 1 CLV

1 Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.
 2  Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water.

I never saw this before. God first  created and at some point after, the earth became a chaos? If Ray talked about this somewhere , I would be grateful if someone could direct me to the information.

Isaiah 45:18 tells us God did not create the earth a chaos and formed it to be indwelt.
This seems to imply that mankind was in the earth prior to what plunged the earth into chaos, and possibly after.

Then in Genesis 3-4

3 And saying is the Elohim, "Become light!" And it is becoming light.
4  And seeing is the Elohim the light, that it is good. And separating is the Elohim between the light and the darkness.

In Genesis 1:3-4 I'm seeing that this light is Jesus sent to bring order out of this darkness and chaos.

There are many places a mind can go with this. For me,  one of the first is past civilations, followed by scientific discoveries  God is always blowing my mind.

[Musterseed]

Transcript #7,,,, Genesis and the Big Bang 😃