Question from Denise (Revilonivek)

[mharrell08]

I have prayed and told God what was on my mind.I said it just doesn't make sense nor does it make sense.

How can Jesus say and preach he overcame the world and told us we can do it too when he himself had the advantage of having the Holy Spirit and majority of the world don't.

How can people follow him by example if he had the advantage and they don't. It sounds almost hypocrite, unless he was fully man, who suffered like us, repenting from sins and becoming perfect through suffering and was begotten of God at his baptism. Like sons and daughters are begotten of God at a point in their lives after much suffering.

If you guys have any answers to these questions.. That would be wonderful because it will give me peace.

Thanks,

Denise

[Dave in Tenn]

Denise, others will be along with clear teaching, but let me just make a couple of points.

1.  It's a theological assumption that Christ was begotten of God at His baptism.  The accounts of His baptism make no such statement.  II Peter 1:17 could be read as another 'gospel account' and Peter makes no such assertion either.  It's a far different thing to have One's Sonship announced than it is to be begotten.

2.  The scripture I believe you are referencing when you say He was 'made perfect by suffering' is this:  Heb 5:8,9  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him...

I believe it's the same 'obedience' that is mentioned in Phillipians 2:5-8.  It's after/as the result of His Obedience there that God "exalts Him and graces Him with a name which is above every other name."  In Hebrews, it's after/as a result of His obedience that He's "made perfect and became the author of eternal salvation".

What came first?  The obedience.  Always and only obedient to the Father.

You say that Jesus overcame the world and told us we can do it too.  Where did He say that?  There's too much to say here in a forum post.  I'd recommend Ray's "How Hard is it Getting Saved?" paper and 817 hours of meditation.    

You say it feels like cheating or hypocritical for Him to overcome the world because of the advantage of His having the Spirit of God.  How much like cheating and being hypocritical is our desire to 'overcome the world' without the Spirit of God?  That IS religion.  Worthless.  Most of the world doesn't have it?  Let them ask, and it will be given to them running over.

Lastly, you seem to be saying that Christ's sinlessness negated the 'suffering' you think He endured by your contention that He was a sinner and needed to repent, etc.  You and I must live in very different spiritual universes.  To be tempted in all points--yet without sin--IS suffering, and suffering on a scale you and I can't match.  Surely you don't think resisting evil is easy.  Don't you think Someone who resisted unto Blood and, according to Scripture, never sinned could learn obedience from His suffering?  When did 'obedience' become 'disobedience'?  Isn't obedience the thing He learned?



I'm not a teacher, Denise.  I just want to help you knock some of those theological (or theoillogical) cobwebs you've gathered up loose.  I promise you there is no way you can 'understand' what Ray is talking about until you begin to let it go.

 



 

   

[Dennis Vogel]

How can Jesus say and preach he overcame the world and told us we can do it too when he himself had the advantage of having the Holy Spirit and majority of the world don't.

I've had the same thoughts. If God Almighty struck me blind and talked to me one on one I'm pretty sure I would do much better.

We are in the process of overcoming. That means it takes time. I don't think any of us make it to perfection while we are in the flesh. I don't know of any human that died perfect.

God is creating judges. 'The majority of the world' is not destined to be judges.

[Samson]

I have prayed and told God what was on my mind.I said it just doesn't make sense nor does it make sense.

How can Jesus say and preach he overcame the world and told us we can do it too when he himself had the advantage of having the Holy Spirit and majority of the world don't.

How can people follow him by example if he had the advantage and they don't. It sounds almost hypocrite, unless he was fully man, who suffered like us, repenting from sins and becoming perfect through suffering and was begotten of God at his baptism. Like sons and daughters are begotten of God at a point in their lives after much suffering.

If you guys have any answers to these questions.. That would be wonderful because it will give me peace.

Thanks,

Denise

Hi Denise,

I don't know if any of My input " will give you peace " and be of any assistance to you. All Humanity, with the exception of Jesus were Born into this World without any prior existence or knowledge. Jesus had a Pre-Human existence accompanied with that knowledge and prior existence. John. 1:1,3,10,11 & 18 ( these verses paraphrased for specific emphasis) " He was in the world, and the world was made by him. "
Jesus is God's Spokesman, The Word, The Master Builder or Master Worker and The wisdom of God.
Proverbs. 8:22-30(Some verses quoted from this passage): " The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." Pro 8:30  Then I wasH1961 byH681 him, as one brought upH525 with him: and I wasH1961 dailyH3117 H3117 his delight,H8191 rejoicingH7832 alwaysH3605 H6256 beforeH6440 him;

H525
אמון
'âmôn
aw-mone'
From H539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect (like H542): - one brought up.

John 16:28  I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Jesus had the Fullness of Deity within Him and although He had a physical Body, He didn't possess a Carnal Mind (Fleshly Thinking) and because He had the " Fullness of Deity," dwelling in Him, He was incapable of sinning. The rest of Humanity, with the exception of Jesus were Born with the capacity to Sin and have a Carnal Mind, too spiritually weak to do otherwise, Jeremiah. 17:9. God's Chosen Elect have the holy spirit dwelling in them, but not the fullness of God. Does having the holy spirit dwelling inside oneself require an absolute 100 % dwelling of that holy spirit inside that particular person or is it a process. A good example of an imperfect Human having the holy spirit dwelling inside them is none other than, The Apostle Paul. I don't think any would argue that Paul, after His experience on the road to Damascus didn't have God's spirit dwelling in Him, but His spiritual improvement was a gradual process. In the case of Jesus, His Body(Greek-Sarx) experienced pain & suffering, that would include His emotional experiences, but Jesus did not have a Carnal Mind(Sarkeekos & Sarkeenos).

One of Your Questions: How can Jesus say and preach he overcame the world and told us we can do it too when he himself had the advantage of having the Holy Spirit and majority of the world don't.

Answer: When Jesus made the statement about " overcoming the World(Greek-Kosmos, the order or arrangement of things mostly including the people alienated from God), He was speaking to and about The Elect of God in this Lifetime(Aion-Age). People of the World or Kosmos won't overcome in this Lifetime and don't have the holy spirit dwelling in them and won't gain Eonian Life or the life of the age. Paul overcame, He fought the fine fight & had victory over this World, because He was Chosen, before the foundation of the World.

2Ti 4:6  For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7  I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Actually, God didn't intend for the majority of Mankind to understand the Scriptures. The proof of this is self evident, IE- the conflicting & contradictory interpretations & Doctrines of the thousands of Christendom's Denominations. Their Babylonian Language, a language of confusion. The Scriptures were & are primarily written for God's Chosen Elect and only they are capable of understanding them.

Read Ray's Twelve Truths to understanding God's Word. Even the Apostles of Jesus didn't understand His Parables until after they received the Parakleetos(Comforter or Entreater) at Pentacost.

Denise, You mentioned the word "Perfect," in Your above Post. The word Perfect in both the Hebrew & Greek doesn't necessarily mean Morally & Spiritually Flawless, but often refers to being complete or as We sometimes say "Perfected." Don't forget the principle of The Absolute and The Relative. Being "Perfected" can refer to the process of experiencing something to it's finish or completion. Prior to Jesus Birth, He never experienced a Life in a Body of Flesh, feeling Pain, emotions, etc. So, He experienced 33 1/2 years of Life in a Body of Flesh, prior to His Birth(Pre-Human) existence, He didn't experience these things, because He never had a physical body.

[mharrell08]

Denise, You mentioned the word "Perfect," in Your above Post. The word Perfect in both the Hebrew & Greek doesn't necessarily mean Morally & Spiritually Flawless, but often refers to being complete or as We sometimes say "Perfected." Don't forget the principle of The Absolute and The Relative. Being "Perfected" can refer to the process of experiencing something to it's finish or completion. Prior to Jesus Birth, He never experienced a Life in a Body of Flesh, feeling Pain, emotions, etc. So, He experienced 33 1/2 years of Life in a Body of Flesh, prior to His Birth(Pre-Human) existence, He didn't experience these things, because He never had a physical body.

Excellent point Samson

John 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost

This is the 'completion' or perfection that is spoken of in Hebrews 5:9.


Marques

[Dennis Vogel]

He never experienced a Life in a Body of Flesh, feeling Pain, emotions, etc.

Not entirely true. He did experience emotions.

[Samson]

He never experienced a Life in a Body of Flesh, feeling Pain, emotions, etc.

Not entirely true. He did experience emotions.

Sorry Dennis,

I stand corrected, as Spirit, He did indeed experience Emotions, but I guess I didn't express myself clearly enough, figuring that while We(everyone else) consist of this Fleshly Body, the experience of Emotions "might" be somewhat different, similar, but different, but I don't really know.

                               Thanks, Samson.

[Marky Mark]

Excellent point Samson

John 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost

This is the 'completion' or perfection that is spoken of in Hebrews 5:9.

Marques

Marques,I do not believe that Jesus was perfected or made complete until he was resurrected.

Joh 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:21  But he spake of the temple of his body.

Luk 13:32  And he said unto them—Go and tell this fox, Lo! I am casting out demons, and, cures, am I finishing, to-day, and to-morrow,—
Luk 13:33  and, on the third, I am to be made perfect.

His resurrection on the third day became the cause for our salvation.

Heb 5:9 And being perfected, He became the cause of eonian salvation to all who are obeying Him,

When Jesus was dead in the tomb, He had not yet been quickened.

1Pe 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Rev 1:17  ..... I, am the First, and the Last,
Rev 1:18  and the Living One,—and I became dead;—and lo! living, am I, unto the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades.



Peace...Mark

[Craig]

Mark I see what you are saying but here is a question.  Was Christ perfect when He created the earth?  Was He perfect when He and the  Father began creating man in their image?

I know you mean the physical Christ made lower than the angels, but Christ was before he was born of Mary.

Craig

[DougE6]

The answer: No human being can follow Jesus' example.

Do you mean ..No human being can follow Jesus example without the spirit of Christ? The scriptures tell us to follow Jesus example...
1Pe 2:21  For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

So I think we need to be filled with the spirit so we can indeed follow Jesus example...Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.....Eph 5:18  And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; ....Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

God is creating judges.

How True! Yet...Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

We really need to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil, through the spirit, as Christ did, if we are to sit on the throne with Him.  Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 1Jn 2:17  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

[mharrell08]

Marques,I do not believe that Jesus was perfected or made complete until he was resurrected.

Joh 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:21  But he spake of the temple of his body.

Luk 13:32  And he said unto them—Go and tell this fox, Lo! I am casting out demons, and, cures, am I finishing, to-day, and to-morrow,—
Luk 13:33  and, on the third, I am to be made perfect.

His resurrection on the third day became the cause for our salvation.

Heb 5:9 And being perfected, He became the cause of eonian salvation to all who are obeying Him,

When Jesus was dead in the tomb, He had not yet been quickened.

1Pe 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Rev 1:17  ..... I, am the First, and the Last,
Rev 1:18  and the Living One,—and I became dead;—and lo! living, am I, unto the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades.



Peace...Mark

I agree Mark, I was only speaking in the relative sense of Jesus time on earth. That's the example He left for us, taking up one's cross to the point of death. In that regards He 'finished' or completed His work. Jesus had no hand in His own resurrection, that was of the Father.

Hope you understand as I was speaking on a much smaller scale than you.


Marques

[G. Driggs]

HI Denise,

Just to backup and agree with what has already been said. We are not totally helpless. Jesus gives a "down payment" of His Spirit to help us overcome.

Quote from Ray, a bit long but I hope you will read it. It's very encouraging.

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake8.html

First I want to call your attention to a most important fact concerning the word "overcometh" in the KJV. Notice that it is not in the past, as in "has overcome" or "overcame." It is in the Greek aorist tense. It shows a CONTINUING ACTION. The Greek is "to the overcoming" or "to the one overcoming" or "to the one conquering." I point out this continuous action to show that Christ does not want any to start and then stop. We must always continue "conquering and overcoming."

We have learned that when we repent and turn to Jesus Christ, He gives us of His Holy Spirit (the earnest—the start, the beginning, the down payment, if you will). Look now at the first reward promised the Churches:

TO HIM THAT OVERCOMES...

   "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of LIFE..." (Rev. 2:7).

That is the beginning of real spiritual life. If we continue in this new spiritual life, we will not be hurt by the "second death" which is the "the lake of fire."

   "He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).

Now we are safe, right? We can now rest on our laurels, right? Wrong.

   "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the hidden manna" (Rev. 2:17).

We can't grow spiritually unless we eat SPIRITUAL FOOD. When we eat of Christ's spiritual body, we grow spiritually; when we stop eating spiritual food we spiritually starve and spiritually die. If we eat spiritual food, we grow, we mature, we are "continuing in Christ's word" and Christ word is spirit and therefore spiritual food.

What is our next reward if we "continue" overcoming?

   "...and will give him a white stone and a in the stone a new name" (Ver. 17)

Now we learned that this stone is really a pebble which is a symbol for a ballot, which acquits us of guilt and justifies us, allowing for our admission or entrance into the Kingdom, signed and signified by Jesus Himself. If we continue to overcome, this white signed, ballot stone of entrance into the Kingdom is waiting for us with OUR NAME on it. Remember "as Jesus is, SO ARE WE..." His name is OUR name. If we continue to overcome, we will be given another great reward.

   "And he that overcomes and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" (Ver. 26).

Say, did you notice that most important phrase, "keeps my works UNTO THE END?" Do you suppose there was a purpose for adding those words at this place in the rewards? You know there was. We must "keep on, keeping on." We cannot look back. We cannot fail to continue in Christ's words and works. We must take up our cross. We must suffer persecution. We must "fight the good fight." We must "keep the faith." We must "pray without ceasing." And we must make it to the end,

   "And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED" (Matt. 10:22).

THEN we will be qualified to have "power over the nations." But reigning requires that we be RIGHTEOUS. We must reign the nations with spiritual power, not with military might. Our motives and our love must be PURE.

    "He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment" (Rev. 3:5).

The "white raiment" is the same "clean white, fine linen" of Rev. 19:8, "for fine linen is the righteousness of the saints" (Ver. . When we attain to this degree of overcoming, God makes an absolute promise to us:

    "I will NOT blot out his name out of the book of life" (Ver. 5).

Just how high do the rewards of Jesus to the overcomer go?

    "Him that overcomes will I make a PILLAR IN THE TEMPLE OF MY GOD" (Ver. 12).

A pillar is a main support in a temple. It speaks of a position of GREAT DISTINGUISHED RESPONSIBILITY at the Spiritual Headquarters of the entirety of the universe in Mt. Zion. But if He is going to give us ALL THAT HE HAS, He expects us to do as He DID and become what He IS.

        "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me on My throne, EVEN AS I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne" (Ver. 21).

We are to overcome "even as" Jesus Christ conquered and overcame. What was it that Jesus Christ "overcame?" John 16:33,

    "These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation: but BE OF GOOD CHEER; I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD!"

Jesus Christ overcame EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING THE WORLD! And here is God's command to the believer who would become an overcomer and conqueror in Christ Jesus:

    "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world [which MUST be overcome and conquered!]" (I John 2:15-16).

We are to also "overcome the world" just as Jesus did. Not by ourselves, but by Jesus "Christ IN us, the hope of GLORY." Christ lives His life IN the believer, and in the believer Christ will, "overcome the world," over and over again in each new believer. And then one day, Jesus Christ will say to YOU, "Sit with Me on My throne—We are going to save the Universe together."
---------------

Check out my sig, another quote from Ray, and a reminder to myself.

Peace,

G.Driggs

[Joel]

Hi Denise
We can rest assured that God knows our getting ups, and our settings down. He has his Son that has spent time here on this earth just like us, and knows trials and tribulations fist hand, and can truly be a mediator for us.
Here is how we overcome; 1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Jesus is the Son of God, born of the Spirit of God, and he also was the Son of man born of a virgin.
Jesus had a will, he made choices just like we do in our everday life, he had the advantage of knowing evil from it's beginning, we come to know evil and its devices over a period of time.

He didn't separate himself from humanity, but was a friend to publicans and sinners, as the scriptures state.
Jesus loves us and layed his life down for us, we overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony.
If we confess him before men, he will confess us to the Father. Matthew 10:32
It's a good thing to think on the humanity of Jesus, and the fact that he knew the things he would have to suffer, before the foundation of the world.
We should have faith, that the good work he has started, he will see to completion.

Joel

[Revilonivek]

Hey everybody, hang on..I just took my family to tybee island for a couple days, but I promise to write back When i get back home. It is hard to be in the right mind when on vacation:)

After reading your posts, you guys give excellent information. I need to reread them to really take it in, but once I do that,i'lw write back:)


One thing in the meantime, the scriptures say Jesus learned obedience through suffering. What does that word suffering mean?how did he learn? What defines sin? We can't even suffer without making mistakes, we reap what we sow, it's our rewards and punishments. how do you suffer without sinning?  I have never heard of anyone learn anything without sinning and realizing the consequences still. It's how we suffer. How did he suffer to learn obedience? For us, as human beings, we learn obi den e through the knowledge of good and evil.

Jesus said he overcame the world, how did he overcome the world without sinning once? What defines suffering and what is the difference between learning obidence through suffering. We suffer bec we sin.

Help pls


Thanks so much
Denise

[lilitalienboi16]

I honestly cannot imagine hebrew chapter 5 being about Christ in His human form learning obedience through the earthly sufferings He experienced and being made perfect at that time.

I find it so hard to believe that In the beginning, when the all was created as we know it, that Christ was not already perfect like His Father. I Just can't believe the God of the old testament ( or atleast the Son that the 'all things' came through) wasn't perfect yet or expected us to obey Him and all His commandments yet He Himself didn't know obedience... I Just can't see that.


WARNING: SPECULATION;

I can see Christ completing everything imaginable as living a human life without sin and dying for us as being made "perfected" or as Samson put it, "complete, IT IS FINISHED." I suppose this would be experiencing everything that a being could possibly experience. But if that's what it took for Him to be "perfected" in the complete sense, then what of the Father? Dare we say the Father is not "perfected" (I think not!) since He hasn't come and experienced this human living business, or did He become "perfected" in a galaxy far far away in some place we could never imagine long before we were ever a thought in His being?

I thought ray was going to write an article about this anyway, anyone know if that's still coming? I'd be very much interested in reading it.

[lilitalienboi16]

One thing in the meantime, the scriptures say Jesus learned obedience through suffering. What does that word suffering mean?how did he learn? What defines sin? We can't even suffer without making mistakes, we reap what we sow, it's our rewards and punishments. how do you suffer without sinning?  I have never heard of anyone learn anything without sinning and realizing the consequences still. It's how we suffer.

You need to re-read the posts given to you because the answer to this is up above and ill quote it for your benefit. Though I don't agree that the being we knew as Christ in His earthly form and now as the Son of God (though He always was the Son) in His spirit form learned obedience only once He suffered in His human form. I Just can't see that being the truth, though it might be...

QUOTING DAVE IN TENN

Lastly, you seem to be saying that Christ's sinlessness negated the 'suffering' you think He endured by your contention that He was a sinner and needed to repent, etc.  You and I must live in very different spiritual universes.  To be tempted in all points--yet without sin--IS suffering, and suffering on a scale you and I can't match.  Surely you don't think resisting evil is easy.  Don't you think Someone who resisted unto Blood and, according to Scripture, never sinned could learn obedience from His suffering?  When did 'obedience' become 'disobedience'?  Isn't obedience the thing He learned?

God bless, and yea.. slow down, take a step back and breath

[Dave in Tenn]

You're right about that, Alex.  For reference, check out the "Did God Ever Do an Honest Day's Work?" study.  Nothing has come about easily.  He's earned His name above every Name. 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thank you for your challenging questions and readiness to listen Denise.

Pioneers reach out of the box beyond the painful break points of traditional mind patterns that keep humanity locked in bondage to errors of false belief.

Keep on keeping on ~

Arc

[Marky Mark]

 

Mark I see what you are saying but here is a question.  Was Christ perfect when He created the earth?

Yes.

Was He perfect when He and the Father began creating man in their image?

Yes.

I know you mean the physical Christ made lower than the angels, but Christ was before he was born of Mary.

Yes Craig,I am speaking of Jesus the man. I believe Jesus was perfect[complete;whole] before he emptied Himself and was born in the flesh. But when He gave up His power in heaven I believe He relinquished His perfection by becoming human.No human being can enter the kingdom in flesh and blood bodies, that is why Christ had to die.


1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world

Since Christ was a man born of the flesh,that flesh had to die just like our flesh has to die in order to be raised from the dead and enter into the kingdom of God.

Luk 24:26  Was it not necessary for the Christ to go through these things, and to come into his glory?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

but Christ was before he was born of Mary.

Craig,are you saying that if the Father had not raised Jesus from His physical death that He could have raised Himself because of His perfection before His earthly existence?

Thanks,

Mark

I agree Mark, I was only speaking in the relative sense of Jesus time on earth. That's the example He left for us, taking up one's cross to the point of death. In that regards He 'finished' or completed His work. Jesus had no hand in His own resurrection, that was of the Father.

Hope you understand as I was speaking on a much smaller scale than you.


Marques

Hey Marques. Thanks for the reply and I now understand what you were saying and I couldn't agree more.


Peace...Mark

[Revilonivek]

Questions, questions, ha.

Just something to help me understand.

Was the Holy Spirit always with him since he was conceived by the Holy Spirit? Or was he filled by the Holy spirit in the form of a Dove at his baptism?

I have a question...

According to Romans 8:7-11

It is basically saying, as long as we are still carnal minded,  we don't have the spirit, and if we are no longer after the flesh, we have the spirit in us.

So basically, when you have the spirit in you, you are considered sinless? It says basically that the spirit can't dwell in a mind that is still carnal.

The temple of our bodies need to have the Spirit of God present in it to allow us to do His service. I Cor 3:16-23; II Cor 5:20

It would make sense that he can't sin because he has the Holy spirit in him. It's not in their nature to sin.

Was Jesus filled by the Holy Spirit at his baptism or was it always with him since he was conceived. I'm just trying to make sense of this. Jesus' mom is a human being, so Did Jesus inherit her carnal nature as every man does? Is it how he struugles? But the scriptures were clear that holy spirit cannot dwell in bodies that are still carnal minded?

How did Jesus overcome the world if he always had the Holy spirit, as holy spirit cannot sin nor live in a body that is still carnal minded? I'm trying to make sense of it.

Denise