''just another tread about money''

[DougE6]

Fester, are you an English teacher? Why grade it in such a manner? How about just add to it if you felt it needed more. Saying "it is full of holes"...  Does such a declaration as that add anything for the rest of us?

Thankfully, like everything here, that was merely only your own opinion. And not so objective that we must feel the same as you. Contrariwise, I find merit in them where they speak to me.

This is just my opinion, but I think most of us can read the spirit behind words, and get much out of it.  I found much of Moise thread inspiring as he detailed his PERSONAL understandings gained through what God has individually allowed him to experience.

And I think God is teaching and moulding him into learning deep lessons in regards to money and such. And some things are really really hard to put into words, specially deep things. Feelings are deeper than words, and more real.

If I understand love completely, I will understand verses in the scriptures quite a bit differently than someone whose understanding of love is incomplete.

For me Moises writing is interpretative.  I interpret it in the light of God has shown me, and much of it resonated. Thanks for sharing, Moises.

[acomplishedartis]

Hi Mr. Fester,   
It wasn't my intention to get into arguments with my original posts. I know this subjects can get very extensive and deep and it wasn't my intention to cover the whole thing (Actually it was like a little personal comment). And whatever good anyone could take of it should worth the time.

When I wrote the first part, what I was doing was trying to anticipate answers like yours since they always come up on this kind of treads about money. You misunderstood me, and all I will do is to try to put it more simple for you.

          ''If you had the power and money how would you run and fix the world, how would you address the problem of...   this... and that...?  ''

Hypothetical questions can be fun; plus gets one's grey matter working; invokes thought and conversation, controversy and learning and can be quite humbling

Fester, here I am not talking agaist hyphotetial questions in general, I am talking about the ones that take the wrong premise of stating that ''the world can be fixed with money and power''. The people I am talking with, here in the forum, believe that God is the only one whom can fix the world, because what it takes to do that is a spiritual healing-no amount of money or political power can fix the hearts of the human race. Ans so any hyphotetical question with this premimse is unfair and unworthy.

Of course you can get all the fun you want getting sucked into those questions but you will not learn a lot.

The truth is that a lot of money and worldly power will never bring us more chances for a more piety, peaceful and quiet life. There is no way our limited mind can have a better plan than Gods, He is the Creator and His masterpiece is perfect and it is still in process. And we are not to pretend to be gods.

Obviously our limited minds will never have a plan better than God's.  But now you side step the issue and go on about gaining piety, a peaceful and quiet life.

But you really did not 'put down' and show that this question is 'unfair and unworthy' and that 'we should not participate on this type of hypothetical and vane reasoning's'.  Your's are the kind of statements politicians give.
     

When we get into thinking that the world could be fixed (healed) with human money and power is because we don't realize not even a little of how limited our minds really are. Now. We have been taught that God is right now healing a few and causing them to overcome this world and live a piety life, and again, no amount of money or worldly power can do that to anyone. Can you see the connection now? (You dissmised my first sentence).

Fester, you really insult me by telling me ''Your's are the kind of statements politicians give''. oh well...

On a side note; I could be no further from politicians. Politics is all about trying to fix the world with money and power, according to their own carnal understandment of ''human dignity''.
(Personally, Politics never dissapoint me since I don't expect much from them.)


Below, I am going trough the continuation of your suposedly 'rebuttal',

[acomplishedartis]

Also I have heard before:

          ''If everyone would think and do as you, now, imagine how the world would become? I don't like neither how things are now but this is how things and money work around here, so you better comply...''

If everyone thought the same as anyone in the world it would still be a messed up place (sin).  Yes there is a way 'things' and 'money' in the world work, and to live we must 'comply' and play the game.  Well, unless you want to be a broke, hungry, homeless, rebel or go live in the woods like Grizzly Adams. 

Fester, your answer is a very good example of what I was anticipating with my firsts questions. I am glad you bring it.

As somebody already commented it, one thing that you could grasp of my paper is that we are encouraged to live fugal. Not broke, but frugal. But then somebody (probably you) could bring to me the same type of hyphotetical question: ''If everyone would think and do as you, now, imagine how the world would become, If everyone would live frugal the market would collapse, it would be chaos, lost of jobs, etc...?''

My answer is the same: On this life nobody had ever think exactly like me and nobody never will, so that argument should never apply. Also you have to take into consideration with whom are you talking with. I am a person that is trying to please and obey God. I don't believe that if I personally decide to live frugal the market will rise and grow, and the chaos will be stoped and everbody will have jobs. 
And again I will bring my first example to reinforce my second one: ''No quantity of money or worldly power (or jobs, etc..) will ever fix and heal the world because the healing is spiritual''. 

You said ''Yes there is a way 'things' and 'money' in the world work, and to live we must 'comply' and play the game.''

No Fester, if I decide to try to live frugal and be content with what God have give me and work honestly with my own hands and live a quiet live, I don't have to 'comply' and play the (greed) game. Neither do you. In reality this is all a matter of the motivations of the heart. Let the ''complying'' to ''the many'' out there.

You also said ''Well, unless you want to be a broke, hungry, homeless, rebel or go live in the woods like Grizzly Adams.'' 

That is exactly the appealing of fear that society use to get you into the game of greed. And if we don't trust that God will take care of our needs and that He is control of everything, then, we will surely fall. And if for some reason God would want to show a lesson to somebody of us by being broke, or hungry or homeless, there is no power on earth that would stop it to happen.
Look at Paul, he went through very hard things and didn't comply, he didn't play the greed game, neither Ray does.

[acomplishedartis]

Also since God is in control and not any human freewill, all the wrong and evil we see today doesn't match with how things with humans will always work. Actually this is how all things really work: God being the potter and humans being the clay, there you have a real absolute.

Yes God is the Potter and we are the clay is a real absolute.  You say, 'all the wrong and evil we see today doesn't match with how things with humans will always work'.  I think it matches 100% as with how things with humans work and always will work as we are vessels of sin.  Evil totally matches sinful human (flesh) behavior. 

Here you misunderstood me 100% (but yes, I should be more specific, I am sorry).

When I said that:

''Also since God is in control and not any human freewill, all the wrong and evil we see today doesn't match with how things with humans will always work.''

I said that it doesn't match, because someday ''how things work with humans'' will be very different; When God heal and fix and save EVERYBODY!

We don't need more money to start trying to live a piety live, it is more important to build our character than to accomplish material dreams (God's is giving an experience of evil to humanity to humble him, if He wanted to give everybody and experience of abundance and total bliss right now, many things would be different.)

You are correct but the comment is irrelevant to your original stated objectives.

Hopefully, if this time you understood me better, You will see that my comment is no irrelevant to the stated objectives. Actually it is like a resume of them:

-''We don't need more money to start trying to live a piety live, it is more important to build our character than to accomplish material dreams'' (And this is why we don't make hyphotetical questions with the premise that more money will fix and heal the world or ourselves).

-''God's is giving an experience of evil to humanity to humble him, if He wanted to give everybody and experience of (spiritual) abundance and total bliss right now, many things would be different.'' (And this is why we are not even TO expect that on this life EVERYBODY have to believe and start being healed and saved, and live and think like us. This is why the world is as it is and people hearts covet).

see?

Now, before keep on talking about money, again, what is money?

Money was only a medium of exchange for the increasingly complex transactions, it is a just a peace of paper that people in general give certain value to it, money is like little cage vouchers, money is a mental idea and we have been trained to respect it and even praise it.

A simplistic but true enough view.

thanks for that comments Fester, I will take it as a compliment.
(The concept of what is money might sounds easy to grasp, but understand how it really works and see the big picture is not that easy. If we would really understant it, we would surely not worry so much about it. Someday God willing...)


If you want to keep on with the rest of my script. I am ready to try to make it clearer and defend it.

Sincerely

Moises

[acomplishedartis]

Fester, are you an English teacher? Why grade it in such a manner? How about just add to it if you felt it needed more. Saying "it is full of holes"...  Does such a declaration as that add anything for the rest of us?

Thankfully, like everything here, that was merely only your own opinion. And not so objective that we must feel the same as you. Contrariwise, I find merit in them where they speak to me.

This is just my opinion, but I think most of us can read the spirit behind words, and get much out of it.  I found much of Moise thread inspiring as he detailed his PERSONAL understandings gained through what God has individually allowed him to experience.

And I think God is teaching and moulding him into learning deep lessons in regards to money and such. And some things are really really hard to put into words, specially deep things. Feelings are deeper than words, and more real.

If I understand love completely, I will understand verses in the scriptures quite a bit differently than someone whose understanding of love is incomplete.

For me Moises writing is interpretative.  I interpret it in the light of God has shown me, and much of it resonated. Thanks for sharing, Moises.

Doug, thank you

[Fester]

If you want to keep on with the rest of my script. I am ready to try to make it clearer and defend it.

Sincerely

Moises

I could easily continue on and show the folly in the rest of your script and your replies to me as well.  However, debating in the forums is not allowed, therefore I will comment on the topic no further.

Fester

[Stacey]

Fester, you might be a loveable, hug-able , kind hearted person but here on the forums sometimes it seems as if you are a attack rabbit hiding under your pancake waiting to pounce at every opportunity to belittle your brethren.

[Fester]

Fester, you might be a loveable, hug-able , kind hearted person but here on the forums sometimes it seems as if you are a attack rabbit hiding under your pancake waiting to pounce at every opportunity to belittle your brethren.

Thanks Stacey but you are making me blush as I really am 'a loveable, hug-able , kind hearted person'.  Unfortunately, people frequently confuse me with my rich from being in the movies, pouncing, attacking cousin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg
 

[Stacey]

That video just goes to show ya that if you can think of it, it's probably been posted as a video on youtube! hilariously ridiculous!

Thanks Stacey but you are making me blush as I really am 'a loveable, hug-able , kind hearted person'.

I knew it, I just knew it! 

[Dennis Vogel]

Ecc 1:2  Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

Money buys power and power is (much of the time) vanity.

Money is the result of being better at something than someone else (vanity). It's how we keep score.

Psa 39:5  Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity.

[Fester]

Money buys power and power is (much of the time) vanity.

I agree with that (much of the time).

Money is the result of being better at something than someone else (vanity). It's how we keep score.

Yes money frequently 'is the result of being better at something than someone else' but sometimes it is the result of innovation.  Look at Mark Zuckerberg (facebook) who had computer skills similar to other college graduates.  He became rich with an idea brought to fruition.  Now, having money and/or being better at something than someone else does not always make one vain.

[Gina]

And sometimes it's just playing the lottery or getting an inheritance.  haha

[mmijares]

Moises... thank you for your posts.
I will continue to contemplate on everything you shared and eventually could help me (with God's Spirit of course) somehow heal me from greediness.