Spurious Passage Revisited

[eggi]

Hi all,

Just a thought. Maybe you already discussed this and I didn't get it. I think they knew what they were doing as to getting rid of someone that they considered a troublemaker and speaker of blasphemy, but had they known just WHO they killed they would not have done it. So they knew very well what they did but they didn't understand WHO they did this to. Paul also believed that when Christians were tracked down and killed, it was really a GOOD thing. Well that was his understanding at that time, but clearly it was totally wrong. But it's not like he didn't know what he was doing.

Again, just a thought.

God bless you,
Eirik

[Gina]

That's it in a nutshell.  Beautiful!

[Gina]

Extol (and Eggi) I saw this a while back:

Dear Jennifer:

. . .

When Jesus warned of this sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it was when He had cast out demons. The Scribes said that Jesus cast out devils by the prince of devils (Mark 3:22).  The Pharisees also accused Him of this very same thing (Matt. 9:34). And we are told that Jesus gave that stern warning, "Because they said, He [Jesus] has an unclean spirit."

But this alone is not all there is to this sin. Even in the Old Testament, when one sinned "ignorantly," he was held to a lower standard than if he sinned "willfully, knowlingly."  God's principles are always true. There was more to the sin of these Scribes and Pharisees than merely stating that Jesus had a devil and cast out devils by the prince of devil. The truth is THEY KNEW BETTER.  They knew that they were lying in order to deceive the multitudes who were beginning to believe in and trust Jesus as a Man of God. They were SINNING AGAINST LIGHT.  They were sinning aginst WHAT THEY KNEW WAS THE TRUTH.  And how do we know this?  We are frankly TOLD this in the Scriptures.

In John 3 we have a "Ruler of the Jews" by the name of Nicodemus, and this is what we are told by him:  "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a RULER [this man KNEW what the Scribes and the Pharisees believed behind closed doors] of the Jews. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, WE [Scribes, Pharisees, Rulers, Jews]  KNOW  that you are a Teacher COME FROM GOD; for no man can do these miracles [such as casting out demons] that You do, except GOD BE WITH HIM"  (John 3:1-2).

It is when we KNOW the truth and blaspheme AGAINST THE TRUE LIGHT THAT WE KNOW, that we then "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" which is the means by which light and truth is imparted.

God be with you,

Ray
(http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2175.msg17491.html#msg17491)

[eggi]

Hi again,

I guess we are left with two possible explanations. Either the scripture that was quoted from Acts 3:16 is not referring to the unbelieving Pharisees, but the Romans or some other rulers. Most likely the Pharisees.

There were Pharisees who believed, and there were Pharisees who didn't believe (Acts 15:5). It is a possibility that Nicodemus was speaking only on behalf of the believing party. In that way he could truly say that they knew Who Jesus was. The other party which didn't believe would stop at nothing to get rid of Jesus. And later, the Saducees wanted to prevent talk about a resurrection since they didn't believe in it.

God bless you,
Eirik

[Gina]

Ah, it's no big.  Either way, they're forgiven! :-D

[eggi]

I agree with you Gina. It's what matters.

God bless you,
Eirik

[Gina]

Still, I confess; I just want to slap the living crap outta them.

Just slap them. 

I just want to slap them across their face really hard.  And them slap them across their other face even harder. 

Figuratively speaking, of course. 

Warmly,
Gina

[indianabob]

Hi,
If Jesus didn't want to take revenge upon them why should we want to do so on his behalf?
He who lives by the slap across the face shall die by the slap across the face.
We shall be judged by the manner in which we judge.
Be angry and sin not.

Warmly offered, Bob

[Gina]

Wow, we truly are to never take our OWN revenge.

Romans 12:19 Never take your OWN revenge, beloved, but leave room for the WRATH [ not the "warm fuzzies," but the wrath] of [who? Satan? no...] GOD, for it is written

"VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

You can't really say simply wanting to figuratively slap a literal murderer is repaying evil for evil.  Well you could lol - but you'd be mistaken.

Even Ray said:

You see when I put thing's in different words, sometimes people look at it a little differently.  If I ask somebody, why do you love your wife?  They'll give me reasons, I say you mean all those things 'make' you love her?  They say, 'oh they do make me love her.'  Then I say, you don't love her freely?  You have to be 'caused' to love her.  So unless she does this to 'cause' you to love her or she cooks good meals for you and 'causes' you to love her, when she rubs your back and it 'makes' you love her.  If it weren't for all that, you wouldn't love her?   Then they say, 'well not so dearly, no.'  And they say that's not sincere love at all? Get out of here, you know sometimes I just want to slap these peoples faces spiritually. 

( http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5154.0 )

Nothing wrong with what Ray said, in my humble opinion, Bob.

[indianabob]

True, we are not to take our own revenge.
But neither does God who has the authority take revenge on poor sinners.
God returns good for evil and so should we.

Romans 12:9-21
(NKJV)
Behave Like a Christian

9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

[newgene87]

i guess i can finally add my 2 cents in. My question is, regarding "spurious passages"; WHY is John 8:1-11 really a spurious one? i read where Ray actually spoke a little on it...

(quote) John 8:1-11 (all these verses)
That's the woman taken in adultery. That whole story is not in the Sinaiticus or the Vaticanus, so maybe it's not Scripture. I can explain it though, because up until last spring I thought it was Scripture. I've got an explanation for it, because this is a way to show another contradiction in the Bible. That Christ did not obey the laws of God, that He broke them. Because the law of Moses said to stone her and they ask Him, "what do You say." Christ said;

John 8:7 ...He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.
v. 8  And again bending down, He wrote on the ground.
v. 9  And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one...

So how do you get around the fact that Jesus is breaking the commandment of Moses? Here was the woman caught in adultery, with eye witnesses and Moses' law said to stone her. How did Christ get around that without breaking the law of Moses? Well I figured out how He did, that is if it is Scripture, it has to do with how Jesus will judge when He returns. Now that's going to be an eye opener. (end quote, empasis MINE)

Now, i discovered how Jesus "got around" it by allowing the actual scriptures speak for themselves. Actually, John 8:1-11 is one of few moments, Jesus shows keen knowledge of the Law VS the Pharisees trying their best to "tempt" or test Jesus, and missing the full Law. Jesus, the Word made flesh, knew already the TWO distinct circumstances written in the law whether or not a woman, caught in adultery, was to be stoned. Deuteronomy 22:24, speaking of a "betrothed (engaged) damsel (virgin)", if caught in the act, was to be stoned along WITH the man. On the other hand, Jesus knowing their thoughts, knew that this Woman was most likely a man's WIFE, in which the law written in Numbers 5:11-31 speaks of ADULTERY WITHOUT stoning, which actually followed a complete set of instructions to cleanse her act. Jesus fulfilled all the acts of the priesthood and even simulated the "action" of writing (which could very well explain Jesus stooping down to write on the ground)

"and the priest shall write these curses in a book, and He shall blot out with the bitter water" (Num 5:23)

My point is, after discovering the message of this story, it actually reveals the intentions of the Pharisees, their evil hearts, the need of a new covenant (Hebrews 8:7-9), new priesthood, and actually knowledge and agreement of the Law: Deuteronomy 22:23-24 vs Numbers 5:11-31. if John 8:1-11 is so Spurious why does it reveal such an even more wise savior?? Actually, indirectly throwing the Law of Moses in their face WITH the Law of Love. Maybe this is what Ray was on his way to discover but i dont see a contradiction of Jesus and the Law. She was most likely a man's Wife and all the actions of Numbers 5:11-31 were required and Jesus had already supplied her cleansing.

just my 2 cents on this particular spurious passage

Eugene

[Gina]

Wow, and thank you for your 2 cents.  I never would have considered this:

"and the priest shall write these curses in a book, and He shall blot out with the bitter water" (Num 5:23)

I just was wondering about this same "spurious" passage this past week at work!  But I had little desire to study it out for myself to get to the truth of the matter, to be perfectly honest with you all.  So, this saying is true:  Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap; they have no storeroom nor barn, and yet God feeds them [spiritual manna]; how much more valuable you are than the birds!. (Luke 12:24) 

I know I have to keep an open mind about "spurious" passages and while I'm sure some passages could be spurious, once a "spurious" passage is backed up with solid, sensible scriptural support then to say they're spurious is, well, .... for the birds.

Good job, Eugene.

[Kat]

Knowing that something in a Bible was omitted by both the Sinaitic and Vatican manuscripts, the oldest manuscripts that had the original text, does make me not want to take it as being absolutely part of the Word of God. There are many ways it could have been added through the centuries. One way that the story could have been added was it was passed down by early church leaders, as this apparently happened with some observers, and was so familiar that it eventually got included into the actual main Scriptural text.

Ray was just saying that he had used this story as a teaching point in some of his articles before he knew it was considered spurious, so he had already figured the answer for it.

If you find it helpful then use it, it just not a certainty.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

For me, I was initially like - wow it's not scripture.  Bummer.  But then I really thought it over and I ended up relieved to think that it's not scripture.  I can't explain why.  Regardless.  No sense in making an idol out of it either way.  I just think it's such a lovely ending for not just the woman but the men, too.  It's like they were all set free.  Though, I can only picture the pharisees weren't nearly as overjoyed re their own freedom.  And besides, He was "just a carpenter."

[newgene87]

exactly Gina. "no need in making an idol of it". Regardless, i believe the biggest lesson to learn is that it is God...

"Who hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2Co 3:6)

and as well, Jesus tell us "His Words, His Rhema, is Spirit and Life" (John 6:63)

it's unneccesary to get stuck on what's scripture or not. Jesus speaks truth to us in many different ways and thanks to Ray i see all this. Thanks Kat 

[Foxx]

just curious, does anyone know if a copy of the Sinaitic manuscript can be purchased?

[Gina]

Have you tried Googling "copy of the Sinaitic manuscript can be purchased" ?

[tinknocker]

just curious, does anyone know if a copy of the Sinaitic manuscript can be purchased?

Don't know if a copy can be purchased but I have a link to manuscripts that can be viewed online. PM me and I'll send you the link.
I'm not sure if it's OK to post it here? 


tinknocker

[Kat]

Hi tinknocker,

Links to manuscripts would not be a problem. It's when the link is to a website that is connected with someones ministry. We simply can not acknowledge or recommend any other person's teaching. Because even if they have some similar things to what is taught here, I have always found that with a little searching (and usually not much) you will find gross errors. So we have this rule.

No preaching (including preaching via links).
Links are not allowed if a site or article brings its own teaching or preaching.  Links are allowed if a site it just for fun or informational, ie, you tube, google translator, Esword, etc.

The last sentence is mainly for the 'Off Topics' board. But I was just trying to explain this a little more.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[tinknocker]

Links to manuscripts would not be a problem. It's when the link is to a website that is connected with someones ministry. We simply can not acknowledge or recommend any other person's teaching. Because even if they have some similar things to what is taught here, I have always found that with a little searching (and usually not much) you will find gross errors. So we have this rule.

No preaching (including preaching via links).
Links are not allowed if a site or article brings its own teaching or preaching.  Links are allowed if a site it just for fun or informational, ie, you tube, google translator, Esword, etc.

The last sentence is mainly for the 'Off Topics' board. But I was just trying to explain this a little more.



mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thanks Kat

I think I've got it now. The site is basically a forum of experts translating and comparing translations. Lots of different manuscripts but requires some effort to view actual 
manuscripts via links. Here's the link for those who are interested; http://www.bible-researcher.com/links03.html