In relation to the coming of Jesus and the revealing of the man of lawlessness

[Oatmeal]

In the Lake of Fire series (refer to parts 13 & 14) Ray ties the revealing of the man of lawlessness to the wild beast that comes out of the sea and with the is, was, and will be of Revelation.

Ray says that the revealing of the man of sin to each individual of the elect is in his particular time (is, was, and will be), but that the coming of Jesus to destroy the lawless one is a future event.

Why does Ray not also tie in the coming of Jesus with the is, was, and will be of Revelation?  Is the coming of Jesus mentioned in Revelation?  If it is, why would that not also be a is, was, and will be?

Why were believers in the early church clearly commanded to wait for the coming of Jesus, and why did Jesus Himself command each and every believer to watch?

To be helpful, I have included Scriptures in regard to that waiting.  1 Corinthians 1:7-8, at least in the English in a number of versions, has an interesting order of events, and that is the reason that for that Scripture I have given both the KJV and the CLV versions.  Are others aware of more Scripture in this regard?

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (KJV)
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Hebrews 10:36-37 (KJV)
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.  For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (KJV)
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:  Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (CLV)
so that you are not deficient in any grace, awaiting the unveiling of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will be confirming you also until the consummation, unimpeachable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye [ye is singular] know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Thank you for your assistance.

Oatmeal.

[Dave in Tenn]

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#preterist

Try this one.  It may make the question: "Why does Ray not also tie in the coming of Jesus with the is, was, and will be of Revelation?  Is the coming of Jesus mentioned in Revelation?  If it is, why would that not also be a is, was, and will be?" moot.

Hopefully that will be at least a start.

Can you point to where Ray said that "the coming of Jesus to destroy the lawless one is a future (only?) event?

[Oatmeal]

Can you point to where Ray said that "the coming of Jesus to destroy the lawless one is a future (only?) event?

The following quote from Ray refers to Jesus coming to us all collectively, the all being the manifest sons of God, by which I assume Ray is referring to the elect (the chosen).  The quote does not say "the coming of Jesus to destroy the lawless one" but I think that the Scripture is clear that that is when the lawless one is destroyed (at the coming of the Lord Jesus - 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (CLV) - then will be unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord Jesus will despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence),)

And now ye know what withholds [is restraining, is detaining—'the falling away FIRST'] that he
['the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition'—YOU...] might be revealed in his time [in YOU
and TO YOU—individually, not collectively] in his time ['his {particular} time']—FOR YOU and FOR
ME and for ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL GENERATIONS UNTIL JESUS COMES TO US ALL,
COLLECTIVELY, AS THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD]."

[Dave in Tenn]

I guess I'm not really understanding your questions, then.  That part you quoted DOES speak to the "Is, Was, and Will be" of the 'revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition'.  I still don't see a place where Ray teaches that "the coming of Jesus to destroy the lawless one is a future event."

It's certainly 'future' for any who have not yet had this revelation, and this revelation is one that 'must take place'. 

If that doesn't help, then I'm stumped as to the question. 

[Gina]

This is amazing.  I have been looking for that email everywhere for other reasons than what Oatmeal is looking for, John, and here it is! 

[Rhys 🕊]

Short and to the point. Excellent John 

Rhys

[gregorydc]

Thank you JfK that also helped me too. Not exactly the same question as above but one about Satan I had the other day. Thank you Oatmeal for for original question that helped to answer mine.
Greg

[thewatchman]

you guys know who the lawless one is right? 

[Rhys 🕊]

Yes

[santgem]

YOU

[Rhys 🕊]

Me

[Oatmeal]

It seems that some members of this forum are bored – so let's get this thread back on track.

Dave in Tenn, thank you for attempting to understand and to answer one of my questions.  Please read the following slowly and carefully.

And so too, this wild beast that comes up out of the sea is the beast IS (at the time John
wrote of it), WAS (before it was introduced to John), AND WILL BE (down through the
centuries until our time and beyond until the consummation of this age).

And now ye know what withholds [is restraining, is detaining—'the falling away FIRST'] that he
['the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition'—YOU...] might be revealed in his time [in YOU
and TO YOU—individually, not collectively] in his time ['his {particular} time']—FOR YOU and FOR
ME and for ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL GENERATIONS UNTIL JESUS COMES TO US ALL,
COLLECTIVELY, AS THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD]."

Yes I agree that Ray says that the revealing of the man of sin is an "Is, Was, and Will be".  The quotes above say that, we both agree that Ray says that, and in my first post I said that Ray says that.

In reference to the second quote above:

According to Ray (and to common sense) this revealing is something that happens to us "individually, not collectively" and this is because believers have been alive at different times in different generations and the revealing is at their particular time.  The revealing of the man of sin is therefore logically (and also Scripturally), an "Is, Was, and Will be".

According to Ray the revealing happens for each of us in each of our times ("Is, Was, and Will be") UNTIL, the "until" denoting a future event, the future event being Jesus coming "to us all collectively" (not to us individually).  If I have understood correctly, "collectively" means: to all of us at the same time, this reinforcing the future aspect.

We know that according to Scripture the destroying of the man of sin can only occur at the coming of Jesus.  This coming is described in 2 Thessalonians 2:8, the KJV refers to "the brightness of his coming", and so this coming is a coming that is, or appears to be, very noticeable to those who see it.  This coming according to Ray is an event that happens "to us all collectively" and is a future event.  Thus according to Ray the destroying (as opposed to the revealing) of the man of sin must also be a future event, and therefore a "Will be" as well, not an "Is, Was, and Will be".

The link that was posted by John from Kentucky does not negate the above argument.

However those in the early church were taught to wait for Jesus in their lifetimes, and were told that He would come after they (the singular "ye" is used) had done the will of God.

So to me there appears to be a contradiction between the teaching of Ray and the teaching of Scripture.  But then perhaps I have not understood the Scripture and/or the teaching of Ray, and that is why I have asked questions.

Why according to Ray is it not possible that the coming of Jesus to destroy the man of sin be an "Is, Was, and Will be"?  Why is it not possible for us, those who faithfully undergo tribulation, and who walk the narrow way to the end, unto Life, expect Jesus to come in our lifetimes, INDIVIDUALLY, before we physically die, to destroy the man of sin?  Were those in the early church taught to expect that?  Were those in the early church taught to expect Jesus to come in their lifetimes?  If so, should we be watching and waiting and expecting the same thing?  And what will we see when we see Jesus come?  Is it a faith thing, or is it an experiential thing?  When we find, and the door is opened, and we receive, is this a faith thing?  Or is it the seeking that is done by faith, but the finding is experiential?  When you find, how would you know that you had found, unless you actually found something or Someone?  When the man of sin is revealed, he is actually revealed.  To be counted as born again, is it enough to have a testimony of the revealing of the man of sin, but not have a testimony of the coming of Jesus to destroy that man of sin?

Do we dare be happy to wait until we die physically, to see what will happen?  If we die (physically), and the man of sin has not been destroyed, then will we see Jesus come to our shame?  Is that how He appears to us at a time that we least expect?

Those who are born again (John 3:3): know (ginōskō (know intimately)) the Truth (John 8:31-32) and are known (ginōskō) by Jesus (Matthew 7:23, John 10:27), know (ginōskō) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He sent (John 17:3), have been made free (John 8:31-32), made free indeed (John 8:36), have received a new heart and entered into the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:10-12, Jeremiah 31:31, 33-34, Ezekiel 36:26-27, Ezekiel 11:16-20, Ezekiel 18:31-32), have received the promise (Hebrews 10:36), Jesus has manifested Himself to them (John 14:21), they have seen the Son (John 6:40), have found, have had the door opened, have received (Matthew 7:7, Luke 11:9), have been invited from the lowest room (Luke 14:10), sup with Jesus and he with them (Revelation 3:20), have the Son (1 John 5:12), shall not need anyone to teach them (Hebrews 8:11), have overcome (Revelation chapters 2-3), have endured much tribulation to enter the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22), and have walked the narrow way to Life (Matthew 7:14).  (I am not saying that this is a complete list).

Is it possible for these things to be fulfilled before our physical death?

Is it possible to be born again, receive a new heart, and enter into the new covenant, if the man of sin has not been destroyed?

My questions remain:

Why does Ray say that the coming of Jesus to destroy the man of sin (I'm not referring to the revealing of the man of sin) is a future event, and therefore not an "Is, Was, and Will be"?

Why were believers in the early church clearly commanded to wait for the coming of Jesus, and why did Jesus Himself command each and every believer to watch?

Thanks again for your help

Oatmeal

To forum members:

When posting on this thread please keep to relevant subject matter and try to refrain from idle chatter.  No apologies needed.

[Kat]

Hi Oatmeal,

Why according to Ray is it not possible that the coming of Jesus to destroy the man of sin be an "Is, Was, and Will be"?  Why is it not possible for us, those who faithfully undergo tribulation, and who walk the narrow way to the end, unto Life, expect Jesus to come in our lifetimes, INDIVIDUALLY, before we physically die, to destroy the man of sin?  Were those in the early church taught to expect that?  Were those in the early church taught to expect Jesus to come in their lifetimes?  If so, should we be watching and waiting and expecting the same thing?  And what will we see when we see Jesus come?  Is it a faith thing, or is it an experiential thing?  When we find, and the door is opened, and we receive, is this a faith thing?  Or is it the seeking that is done by faith, but the finding is experiential?  When you find, how would you know that you had found, unless you actually found something or Someone?  When the man of sin is revealed, he is actually revealed.  To be counted as born again, is it enough to have a testimony of the revealing of the man of sin, but not have a testimony of the coming of Jesus to destroy that man of sin?

Saved or born again is not achieved until we are born into the kingdom at the first resurrection, that is yet in the future and that is what we eagerly await for.
In this present life for each believer, in every generation down through the centuries, we are only begotten and sealed with the earnest of His Spirit now.

2Co 1:22  And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13  In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
v. 14  who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.

When Jesus returns, which is yet still to happen, then the dead in Christ are raised, changed in the twinkling of an eye, to glorious spirit body and receive the promise. They will become fully spirit, the physical carnal flesh will be left behind or changed and we will be "like Christ" and born into the kingdom.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Here is an email of Ray's on being saved.

http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#saved ---

[Ray Replies]

"How do we KNOW that we are saved?" Excellent question!  Would you believe that the Scriptures do not answer this specific question?  If they do, I am not aware of such an answer. The problem in answering this question is that you put it in the PAST TENSE--"How do we know that we ARE saved" which, I guess, could be in the past or present tense. Either way, I know of no Scripture that gives such an answer.

Here is what we do read regarding salvation:

"might save" "to save"  "shalt save" "save us" "shall be saved" "such as should be saved" "whereby we must be saved" "we shall be saved" "what must I do to be saved" etc., etc., etc.

And even those few verses that speak of "but unto us which ARE saved...." a closer look at the Greek shows that it is in the aiorist tense and should be translated "...which ARE BEING saved..." as it is not as yet a completed fact or act.

Even Ephesian 2:8 which states: "For by grace ARE you saved through faith...." which is properly translated with the word "are" than "are you being saved" or some other aiorist tense verb, still does not show that anyone is ALREADY saved. The phrase  "ARE saved" is telling us HOW we are saved, not WHEN we are saved. We "are" saved by grace just as people a century into the future also "ARE saved by grace." That's HOW they are saved, not WHEN.

If there were a verse that stated that we or anyone ARE or HAVE BEEN already saved, it would contradict many other Scriptures that show that salvation is an ongoing process.

This verse says it all: 

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE saved" (Matt. 24:13). 

If this verse be absolutely true, can a statement that contradicts this statement of our Lord ALSO be true? Well, for example, "...he that shall NOT endure unto the end... ALSO be saved?"  See the contradiction?

Jesus says to him that OVERCOMES... seven time in Rev. 2 and 3. If the "overcoming" part is really not necessary, then why is it emphatically stated such SEVEN TIMES?

Is there a reason for not having a verse stating how one can know that they are absolutely SAVED [past tense] at some point in their lives?  I think so. We can NEVER STOP overcoming, striving, pressing on, following after, etc. We can have CONFIDENCE AND HOPE that we will be saved if we continue in our present total devotion to God, but never in this life can we say that we "ARE saved" already, in the past tense.

God has not, however, left us with assurances that we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions. Here is just one:

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brother kindness charity [LOVE]. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL" (II Pet. 1:5-8 & 10).

God be with you,
Ray

[santgem]

What I understand from Ray's teachings from the scriptures is that all of us are the man of sin, the son of perdition, the beast.  That we are God within the Temple of our heart because we think we have free will, that we decide what is good and what is evil.

To those who are the called and chosen, selected before the foundation of the world, then Jesus comes to us now, in our current lives.  Through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, through the Power of God, we are converted and understand we are the beast.  We understand that God is sovereign in all things.  Jesus then rules in the Temple of our hearts.  Jesus has killed the man of sin within us and He rules in the place of the beast.  From now on Jesus is our King and sin no longer rules over us.

Jesus has appeared to us now because as He said, "The Kingdom of God is within you."

At His future return to the Earth, Jesus will resurrect the Elect to everlasting spiritual life, and we will be with Him as He saves the rest of all humanity.

So I don't understand Ray to be saying that the man of sin is to be destroyed only in the future.  For the Elect, the man of sin must be destroyed now, in our present lifetimes.

I gleaned the above from the scriptures and Ray's LOF articles; concerning the beast and man of sin specifically articles 13 and 14.

That is why i said,   YOU

That means all of us, until God called us! We are all the beast, the son of perdition, the man of sin.   We are all the 666.


Thanks JFK and to others who have the Spirit of the Lord!

[Joel]

Ray made two very good points about overcoming, and enduring to the end, from the scriptures.
We can see from the scriptures concerning the life of Paul, and how the Lord worked with him.
Paul had this to say in some of his writings, and his own walk as a Christian;

Philippians 3:10-14
10-That I may know him, and the power of his Resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death.
11-If by any means I might attain unto the Resurrection of the dead.
12-Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13-Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14-I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul later said this toward the end of his life , and ministry;
2nd Timothy 4:6-8
6-For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7-I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8-Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Joel

[thewatchman]

Good. Because the way the conversation was going it sounded like you were about to talk about a future end time event and an anti-christ/beast character. It is not future tense. It is now. There are no second chances after death. Die to the flesh daily

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

[Avidfisher]

  To say there are no second chances is contradictory to the message Ray was trying to get across over and over again.. If all mankind are saved(I speak as a fool), and Jesus is the Saviour of the world, then what is being missed out on any second chances.  Unless of course you're speaking of the sealed  144,000.

[thewatchman]

once you are dead it's over. you can't become an elect if you haven't overcome in life. This is basic doctrine. Are you confused? and the 144000 is a symbolic number. not real people.

[Kat]

Hi thewatchman you are right, but so is Avidfisher,

I think you are both right, from your own perspective.

once you are dead it's over. you can't become an elect if you haven't overcome in life. This is basic doctrine. Are you confused? and the 144000 is a symbolic number. not real people.

Yes these are 'the few' that are chosen to be in the first resurrection, first begotten in this lifetime in this age. But it is only a very few that are being prepared now, to be brought into the kingdom at Jesus Christ's return to reign with Him.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev 5:9  And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
v. 10  and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

  To say there are no second chances is contradictory to the message Ray was trying to get across over and over again.. If all mankind are saved(I speak as a fool), and Jesus is the Saviour of the world, then what is being missed out on any second chances.  Unless of course you're speaking of the sealed  144,000.

This is also true for 'the many,' the world, who will not be saved in this lifetime, in this age, no they will died never really 'knowing' Christ. But this is not their only "chance," even though they were not among the chosen few, the next age will be for their correction and purification. The 'many' will be in the resurrection to condemnation, but the few will serve with Christ to help bring all the rest of humanity, the many, to salvation.

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29  and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Mat 25:31 But, whensoever the Son of Man shall come in His glory, and all the messengers with Him, then will He sit on His throne of glory;
v. 32 And there will be gathered before him, all the nations, and He will separate them one from another, just as, the shepherd! separates the sheep from the goats,—
v. 33 And He will set, the sheep, indeed, on His right hand, but, the goats, on the left.
v. 34 Then, will the King say to those on His right hand: Come ye, the blessed of My Father! Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

v. 41 Then, will he say unto those also, on His left hand: Depart ye from Me, accursed ones! Into the age-abiding fire, which hath been prepared for the adversary and his messengers;

v. 46 And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[thewatchman]

Ever the peacemaker eh Kat?.

You are right. He is correct that all men are saved. But in the aspect that he tried to correct me he was wrong, I made the assumption that we had all drunk from the same koolade jar. That we don't have to regurgitate the same truth 'salvation for all' constantly, and show everyone the same respect that they to know this truth already. We can then talk about higher things and truths. Is this not really the case? Must we keep quoting the obvious?  As you said, I wasn't talking about salvation, but election. And in that point, if we don't die to the flesh now, while we yet live then after death there is no second chance to make our calling and election sure. I see no point to even enter the race if I am not running to obtain the prize of the high calling. Maybe others don't share my goal. I only speak for myself.