Did Jesus Christ Ever Claim to Be Almighty God or only The Son of Almighty God

[cheekie3]

Dave in Tenn -

Thank you for your wise words and patience:

Let me say it again. 

We've learned from experience that this "issue" is one that can't be hashed out on the forum.  I'd just advise any reader to read, watch, or listen to the materials on B-T and challenge your own assumptions.  Assumptions are so plentiful, that it's beyond impractical to deal with them all in forum posts.

I'd love to leave the thread open long enough to answer the OP's question to his satisfaction.  But it won't stay open long enough to answer everybody's curiosity.

Kind Regards.

Grateful George

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi George,

I'm think you missed something very important that ray pointed out. The ONE in paul's state isn't the Father. Its The Father and Jesus.

Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30).  Who is the
"one" in Jesus's statement?  The Father?  NO--"the Father AND Jesus."
Wow.  Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?

That is the ONE God. From how I understand what you said, "There is One God - Our Heavenly Father together with His Beloved Son (Jesus Christ)'," isn't quiet the same to me as it makes it appear as if we have two God's.

As for your question regarding Rev 1:7 of "Say's the Lord" do we know if that is accurate? I believe we do. Revelation, as written by John, was originally done so in greek to my knowledge. I don't recall John ever using the term 'Jehovah' in his writings but rather the greek word 'Kurios' which is in english is 'Lord.'

Furthermore, Jesus of the NT is Jehovah of the OT. That is exactly what ray proved in his "Solving the Enigma of God, Part 1" paper and in his many other writings.

So ether way, it would be a moot point even if the original God inspired version had john hearing 'Jehovah' say those things as opposed to 'The Lord says', which like I said, I don't believe is the case anyway.

I agree that the Son could not exist without His Father but also remember, that a father is no father without his son. Jesus did say at one point in the flesh that His Father was greater but we are also told that before He emptied Himself "In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Phil 2:6-8)

Hopefully this helps some. Its Always an interesting discussion.

God bless,
Alex

[cheekie3]

Dave in Tenn -

Thanks for reminding us of this Post from Ray:

Matthew 27:46 Jesus Cries out my God my God why have you forsaken me.

How would this fit in with Jesus being God Almighty if there is only one God ?


Interesting post George.

God bless.

Here's an email exchange.  You'll have to do some thinking on how it applies to your question.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2775.0.html


> How are you doing Ray? Blessed I believe.
>
> I really appreciate the research that you have submitted yourself to under
> GOD's hand. I'm striving for such myself, (no flattery intended). I don't
> yet consider myself learned, but I'm aware of the holy spirits work in my
> life. I have a question for you if you will?, I have been hearing for a
> long time that when Jesus died on the cross he was seperated from the
> father, i don't find that in the scriptures atleast not in the sense that
> they are suggesting. They (ministers) constantly say that GOD turned his
> back on Jesus on the cross, I disagree with that... Jesus said I and the
> father are one. Even as Paul said i am convinced that nothing shall seperate
> us from the Love of GOD. Even though Jesus did go to the place of Sheol,
> how is it possible for him to take the keys from the Devil without authority
> upon hi gh, for without the spirit of GOD who is Jesus? There is another
> issue bothering me how they say Jesus said "Father why hast though forsaken
> me...?" which ties into the first question...Jesus was constantly aware, all
> through the gospel you hear him saying "its not my time yet," "Its not my
> time". If Jesus knew the intentions of GOD doesn't it seem like doubt for
> him to ask why have you forsaken me, considering that he was completely
> aware what the Fathers will was, and what was going to happen? Or was that
> the whole purpose of him saying it, to get us to identify with the
> sepration? Cause to me that seems like something the devil would say not
> GOD.
> Directly after he said that statement, He screamed and there was and
> earthquake, like something in the spirit realm took place, and then he says
> like it was nothing "It is done..." I think theres something else behind
> tha t But i don't believe for a second GOD turned his back on His only
> Begotten son, am I am wrong on this?
>
> May GOD further you...


No, David, neither do I believe that God "turned HIs back on His only Son."
There are those who teach it, however. Jesus quoted the first few words found
is Psalm 22 which goes on to describe just Who the Messiah was to be and the
purpose for Him being crucified.
God be with you,
Ray








-----------------------------------

Psa 22:1  To the chief Musician. Upon Aijeleth-Shahar. A Psalm of David. My *God, my *God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou far from my salvation, from the words of my groaning?
Psa 22:2  My God, I cry by day, and thou answerest not; and by night, and there is no rest for me:
Psa 22:3  And thou art holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4  Our fathers confided in thee: they confided, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5  They cried unto thee, and were delivered; they confided in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6  But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and the despised of the people.
Psa 22:7  All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying:
Psa 22:8  Commit it to Jehovah--let him rescue him; let him deliver him, because he delighteth in him!
Psa 22:9  But thou art he that took me out of the womb; thou didst make me trust, upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10  I was cast upon thee from the womb; thou art my *God from my mother's belly.

Psa 22:11  Be not far from me, for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psa 22:12  Many bulls have encompassed me; Bashan's strong ones have beset me round.
Psa 22:13  They gape upon me with their mouth, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is become like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15  My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaveth to my palate; and thou hast laid me in the dust of death.
Psa 22:16  For dogs have encompassed me; an assembly of evil-doers have surrounded me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17  I may count all my bones. They look, they stare upon me;
Psa 22:18  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19  But thou, Jehovah, be not far from me ; O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20  Deliver my soul from the sword; my only one from the power of the dog;
Psa 22:21  Save me from the lion's mouth. Yea, from the horns of the buffaloes hast thou answered me.

Psa 22:22  I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23  Ye that fear Jehovah, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and revere him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24  For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him: but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25  My praise is from thee, in the great congregation; I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26  The meek shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise Jehovah that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27  All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah, and all the families of the nations shall worship before thee:
Psa 22:28  For the kingdom is Jehovah's, and he ruleth among the nations.
Psa 22:29  All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him, and he that cannot keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30  A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31  They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done it .

I agree that we should all meditate and study Psalm 22.

Perhaps, and I am not saying I know for sure - this explains The Good News (The Gospel) that Jesus taught, and thereafter His Apostles and disciples preached (in Acts and the Epistles of John, Peter, Jude, James and Paul).

Marvelous Psalm and it focuses our minds and hearts at the cruelty inflicted on Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ - who paid Our Ultimate Price for each and all of us.

Amazing Grace.

Kind Regards.

Insignificant George.

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you for your Post with these wonderful Scriptures regarding the enigma that is Our God and Saviour:

There are certain things that you will not find spoken alright in the Scripture, and that is because there must be room for the blind to be deceived. I mean if everything was spoken clearly how could there be deception? That why Christ spoke in parables. As Largeli mentioned what Christ said of Himself is "I AM," and that He used as  the same name in speaking to Moses "I AM that I AM" (Exo 3:14). I believe that statement contacts Him as Almighty God, used for Him throughout the OT and in Revelation.

John 8:58  Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

I guess being His Son is not considered enough to be God? I think that's because we look on Father and Son as 2 separate beings. Christ states that He was "in Him" as part of the Father and as the Father was also "in Christ" and complete directed Him in every way.

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.

Php 2:6  who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,

That Scripture says that Christ was "equal" to God, as in His status of being part of the Father. Well still some may say these Scripture were not speaking about while Christ was a flesh and blood man... I certainly do not believe He lost His God status when He came in the flesh.

Mat 1:23  "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 9:6  For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Rom 9:4  who are Israelis. To them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the worship, and the promises.
v. 5  To the Israelis belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

This is one of my favourite Scriptures:

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.

We are told in The Scriptures that God is One; and from the beginning and before creation Jesus was One with His Father.

The Father's Voice is Jesus Christ.

Jesus had the Title 'Almighty God' because He is always 'In The Father' and the Father is always 'In His Son'.

Jesus was equal to God - as He and The Father are One.

Jesus is indeed 'God with us' as 'His and Our Father' is always with Him.

Jesus is 'God over all', as He has been given a 'name above all', and His Dominion is 'above all' - and Jesus will reign until 'all is in all', when Jesus will hand over His Kingdom to 'His and Our Heavenly Father'.

Kind Regards.

(Always learning more about Our Saviour and Our God) George

[cheekie3]

Rick -

Thank you for Posting this very apt Scripture:

This scripture seems to suggest that Christ is God almighty.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

God bless.

It states that His Name shall be Called 'Almighty God' and 'The Everlasting Father' - and we know that The Father and His Son are One - and as Jesus said, 'if you have seen Me, you have seen The Father'.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Alex -

Thank you for Posting this:

There is also the Shema in Deut 6:4 which Christ re-iterates in the new testament with 'Jehovah' in the old becoming 'Kurios' in the new which is the Lord Jesus. So Jesus is indirectly revealing Himself as God.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

John 20:28-29
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord ['kurios'] and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Also consider why Jesus came the first time, it was to serve and love. To show us the way in humility. He was very humble, which is something that sets him apart from all the false gods of this earth because they come seeking fame, power, service, but Jesus came to wash the feet of mortal men.

Jesus indeed came to serve rather than 'lord it over us', like our worldly leaders do today; and His Delight was always to 'do the Will of His Father'.

Jesus cannot be separated from His Father; as they are One.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Rick -

You raise a very interesting Point:

I'm wondering now when Jesus said no one has seen God except the son did Jesus mean no one seen God in His spirit form ?

In Isaiah 9:6-7 it does say His name shall be called wonderful,counselor, the mighty God and the ever lasting Father.

I know that no scripture is of its own interpretation but this scripture is plain to understand .


God bless.

The New Testament Scriptures state that 'Jesus has come from His Father, in order to reveal The Father to us' - and all we know about The Father is revealed by Jesus Christ (as the Gospels of His Work and Words record), together with His Revealed Word in Acts, and the rest of The New Testament - as Jesus is 'God's Word'.

We know that 'God is Spirit; and that we must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth'.

We know that only The Son has ever seen The Father - and No One has ever heard His (The Father's) Voice.

Jesus is The Word (and Voice) of God (His Father).

Jesus is Our Mediator to Our Father; as Jesus is One (unified) with His Father.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Dennis -

Thank you for sharing these Scriptures; and the different versions help us to better understand the relationship between Jesus Christ and His Father:

I'm wondering now when Jesus said no one has seen God except the son did Jesus mean no one seen God in His spirit form ?

In Isaiah 9:6-7 it does say His name shall be called wonderful,counselor, the mighty God and the ever lasting Father.

I know that no scripture is of its own interpretation but this scripture is plain to understand .


God bless.

It very simple. No man has seen God the Father except His only begotten Son. In spirit or any other way. Don't add to the word of God.

(ASV)  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(CLV)  God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him."

(Diaglott-NT)  God no one has seen ever; the only-begotten son, that being in the bosom of the Father, he has made known.

(KJV)  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(Rotherham)  No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted him .

(YLT)  God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Alex -

Thank you for clarifying these Points:

Hi George,

I'm think you missed something very important that ray pointed out. The ONE in paul's state isn't the Father. Its The Father and Jesus.

Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30).  Who is the
"one" in Jesus's statement?  The Father?  NO--"the Father AND Jesus."
Wow.  Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?

That is the ONE God. From how I understand what you said, "There is One God - Our Heavenly Father together with His Beloved Son (Jesus Christ)'," isn't quiet the same to me as it makes it appear as if we have two God's.

As for your question regarding Rev 1:7 of "Say's the Lord" do we know if that is accurate? I believe we do. Revelation, as written by John, was originally done so in greek to my knowledge. I don't recall John ever using the term 'Jehovah' in his writings but rather the greek word 'Kurios' which is in english is 'Lord.'

Furthermore, Jesus of the NT is Jehovah of the OT. That is exactly what ray proved in his "Solving the Enigma of God, Part 1" paper and in his many other writings.

So ether way, it would be a moot point even if the original God inspired version had john hearing 'Jehovah' say those things as opposed to 'The Lord says', which like I said, I don't believe is the case anyway.

I agree that the Son could not exist without His Father but also remember, that a father is no father without his son. Jesus did say at one point in the flesh that His Father was greater but we are also told that before He emptied Himself "In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Phil 2:6-8)

Hopefully this helps some. Its Always an interesting discussion.

God bless,
Alex

I agree that together can be misunderstood, and was a poor word to use.

I agree that Kyrios or kurios (Ancient Greek: κύριος) is a Greek word which is usually translated as "lord" or "master".

I understand that Theos means 'God with us'.

Your point about a Father without a Son cannot be a Father, is very valid.

I agree that The Scriptures confirm that Jesus is equal with God, as His Father is always within Him.

You Post has most certainly helped.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you for Posting these Scriptures; which helps clarify a lot:

I'm wondering now when Jesus said no one has seen God except the son did Jesus mean no one seen God in His spirit form ?

In Isaiah 9:6-7 it does say His name shall be called wonderful,counselor, the mighty God and the ever lasting Father.

I know that no scripture is of its own interpretation but this scripture is plain to understand .


God bless.

Here are some Scripture, it better to get an understanding when you read all you can find on a subject. I noticed that Jesus did say a number times of the Father "I know Him," which I consider could mean He perceives/understands the Father, not necessarily a visual sighting of Him.

John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared (Strong's: unfold - declare, tell) Him.

John 5:37  And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

John 8:55  Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, 'I do not know Him,' I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.

John 7:28  Then Jesus cried out, as He taught in the temple, saying, "You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.
v. 29  But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent Me."

Matt 11:27  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

John 14:9  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
v. 10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
v. 11  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

John 8:19  Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

in•vis•i•ble \-"vi-ze-bel\ adj 1 : incapable of being seen <~ to the naked eye> 2 : hidden 3 : imperceptible, inconspicuous. (Merriam-Webster)

1Tim 1:17  and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory--to the ages of the ages! Amen. (Young's)

1John 4:12  No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Kind Regards.

George

[John from Kentucky]

It is easy to prove Jesus said He is God.  Jesus is the Word of God.  The Scriptures is the Word of God in written form.

Proof.  The Two Witnesses.

...and the Word was God.  John1:1

And the Word was made fllesh...  John 1:14

[cheekie3]

John from Kentucky -

Thank you for sharing these two (2) Scriptural Witnesses regarding His Written Word and His Word that became Flesh:

It is easy to prove Jesus said He is God.  Jesus is the Word of God.  The Scriptures is the Word of God in written form.

Proof.  The Two Witnesses.

...and the Word was God.  John1:1

And the Word was made fllesh...  John 1:14

I understand that most of us on this Forum accept what Ray taught - in that 'Almighty God' is 'the Father and His Son'.

Alex has stated that to Be a Father you must first have a Son. So was The Father only a Father when He Birthed (or Fathered) His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ?

What was Our Heavenly Father prior to Him becoming a Father, as all Life proceeds out of Our Heavenly Father?

Was He always The Father, as He Fathered or Birthed All Things into existence - and He gave Life to All the living, including His Only Begotten Son?

The Father is the origin or beginning of All Things, which He Birthed into existence by The Power of His Word.

The Father has Life within Himself; and He gave to His Son to Have Life within Himself:

John 5:26: KJV:

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Our Heavenly Father is The Original Cause of All Life and All things.

His Word warns us about the many false gods that we are not to worship or obey; and He confirms in His Word that there is only the One True (Almighty) God, as there are none beside Him.

Kind Regards.

George

[rick]

Just a thought, the scriptures say there is only one God but it seem to me that the Father is God and Jesus is God and in my simple mind that equals two Gods not one.

Maybe the meaning of one God is that the Father and Jesus are of one in accord

Jesus said I and my Father are one, could Jesus be meaning that Their thoughts are one ?

Scripture say also when a man and women get married the ( two ) become ( one ) flesh ( ok , not a direct quote but same meaning )

That might give insight to ( two ) Gods being ( one ) God. Maybe it's that simple that even a child could understand.

God bless.

[Dennis Vogel]

We've been through this before and it's going to stop here.