John 1:1-5

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Everybody

Has Ray at any time addressed the above Scripture anywhere. If so could you please let me have the link? It concerns the Deity of Jesus Christ. It is preying on my mind since one of my previous posts died a natural death.   

I am reminded here of; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matt.7:13-14), which is a lonely and difficult road.

Thank you.

God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[AK4]

Hi Roy,

Yes he did, Try Who is Jesus and Who is the Father  i think its in there, but dont quote me on that.  Also try these scriptures.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:19-32
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; F6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so F7 that they are without excuse:

Col 2:8-10
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments F8 of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

In Jesus

Anthony

[Samarnon]

Hi Roy,

I think the Trinity paper of L.Ray has it in "Who and What is Jesus Christ?"

God bless brother,
Joy

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

This is from the 2006 Mobile Bible Conference, part 2 HOW DID JESUS DO "THE FATHER'S WILL"  Hope this helps 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3633.msg27126.html#msg27126 ---

1Cor 8:6  but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him;  and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

Is Jesus Christ something?  Yes.  What is He?  He's of God.
All is of Him, of the One God.  All is of Him, Jesus Christ is of Him.  It interesting that Jesus Christ is called the Firstfruit in 1 Cor --

1Cor 15:20  But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.

In Gene. 1:1 it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." 

But that's not the way that word (beginning) is translated in most places in the Bible.  Let's step back a second, lets decide who created the heaven and the earth, ok.   

In John 1:1  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

A guy argued with me for 3 months, back and forth, telling me that was the Father,
"In the beginning was the Word."   
The right order of the words in the linear is, 'and God was the word.' 
" and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning WITH God."   
Now it's pretty hard for something that is something, to be with itself, see what I'm saying, that don't quite work grammatically, does it. 

In John 1:3  "All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." 
So  whatever this Word was, He made everything,  everything was made by Him. 

v. 4  "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." 
What is light?  This light that shines in darkness, what was this light?  It was the Word.
What did the Word do?  It  made all things and nothing was made that He didn't make. 

v. 6  "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." 
v. 7  "He came as a witness, to bear witness about the Light, that all might believe through Him."   
v. 8  "He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the Light."
v. 9 "That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world." 
v. 10 "He was in the world and the world was made by Him."
We just read that He was in the world and the world was made by Him. 
It repeats it (verse 3 and 10).  And the world knew Him not.

v. 11  "He came to His own, and His own received Him not."
v. 12  "But as many as received Him, He gave to them power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name,"
v. 13  "which are born(begotten) not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God."
v.14  "And the Word made flesh, and dwelt  among us with the glory of the only begotten of the Father,
full of grace and of truth."
v.15  "John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I spoke:
He who comes after me has been before me, for He was preceding me."
v.16  "And out of His fullness we all have received, and grace for grace."
v.17  "For the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
Who is this Word, who is as with the Father, who was with God, who made all things,
who was the light of men, who was made flesh, who dwelt among men,
who was the only begotten of the Father?  JESUS CHRIST !

v. 18  "No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father,
He has declared Him."
In the bosom of the Father, That means a close intimate relationship,
He(Jesus Christ) has declared Him(the Father). 
Nobody has ever known anything about God the Father, except through Jesus Christ.  Before the birth of Jesus Christ in Bethlehem, nobody on the face of the earth, ever knew anything about God the Father. 
But didn't they know about God(in the OT)?   That was Jesus Christ.
----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Roy Monis]

Hi Roy,

This is from the 2006 Mobile Bible Conference, part 2 HOW DID JESUS DO "THE FATHER'S WILL"  Hope this helps 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3633.msg27126.html#msg27126 ---

1Cor 8:6  but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him;  and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

Is Jesus Christ something?  Yes.  What is He?  He's of God.
All is of Him, of the One God.  All is of Him, Jesus Christ is of Him.  It interesting that Jesus Christ is called the Firstfruit in 1 Cor --

1Cor 15:20  But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.

In Gene. 1:1 it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." 

But that's not the way that word (beginning) is translated in most places in the Bible.  Let's step back a second, lets decide who created the heaven and the earth, ok.   

In John 1:1  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

A guy argued with me for 3 months, back and forth, telling me that was the Father,
"In the beginning was the Word."   
The right order of the words in the linear is, 'and God was the word.' 
" and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning WITH God."   
Now it's pretty hard for something that is something, to be with itself, see what I'm saying, that don't quite work grammatically, does it. 

In John 1:3  "All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." 
So  whatever this Word was, He made everything,  everything was made by Him. 

v. 4  "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." 
What is light?  This light that shines in darkness, what was this light?  It was the Word.
What did the Word do?  It  made all things and nothing was made that He didn't make. 

v. 6  "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." 
v. 7  "He came as a witness, to bear witness about the Light, that all might believe through Him."   
v. 8  "He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the Light."
v. 9 "That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world." 
v. 10 "He was in the world and the world was made by Him."
We just read that He was in the world and the world was made by Him. 
It repeats it (verse 3 and 10).  And the world knew Him not.

v. 11  "He came to His own, and His own received Him not."
v. 12  "But as many as received Him, He gave to them power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name,"
v. 13  "which are born(begotten) not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God."
v.14  "And the Word made flesh, and dwelt  among us with the glory of the only begotten of the Father,
full of grace and of truth."
v.15  "John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I spoke:
He who comes after me has been before me, for He was preceding me."
v.16  "And out of His fullness we all have received, and grace for grace."
v.17  "For the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
Who is this Word, who is as with the Father, who was with God, who made all things,
who was the light of men, who was made flesh, who dwelt among men,
who was the only begotten of the Father?  JESUS CHRIST !

v. 18  "No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father,
He has declared Him."
In the bosom of the Father, That means a close intimate relationship,
He(Jesus Christ) has declared Him(the Father). 
Nobody has ever known anything about God the Father, except through Jesus Christ.  Before the birth of Jesus Christ in Bethlehem, nobody on the face of the earth, ever knew anything about God the Father. 
But didn't they know about God(in the OT)?   That was Jesus Christ.
----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

###########################


Hi! Kath

Thanks for your response.

1Cor.8:6    No problem there at all. All things are through Him including Jesus Christ the Lord, through whom are all things including mankind. I know all that and it's perfectly acceptable.

Is Jesus Christ something?  What is He? He is of God. Now here we have gone of track a bit. What is He – He is not of God, He is God. That's what I understand John 1:1 to be saying. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."

Now you've gone off at a tangent to 1Cor.15:20.  Let's stick with this for now. We're not up to that yet as we've only just established that the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God, in His Bosom, not created. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18).

Now let us take Gen.1:1 ---"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Here then we have the Only Begotten Son who has come forth (born of, given birth to) out of the Father. There is no Scripture that I can find to say He was created. He is the Creator commissioned by the Father to create. If Christ was created we would be worshipping a creature and not the Creator.

As far as 1Cor.15:20  which comes into the picture quite a long time later, yes, He is the First Fruit of those who slept, now as Jesus Christ the Word and acclaimed by the Father;  "....that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'" (Acts 13:33).

There are a plethora of Scriptures to say that the Father Begat the Son/Word but none to say that He created Him.

This is what is worrying me and I can't follow it. The God that spoke with Moses and Abraham in the wilderness was Jesus Christ and He announced that He was God. This is the same Jesus Christ we are talking about here so if He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob how could He have been created. If He was created He'd be no different to an angel, archangel or them for that matter, all created beings.

Everything else that you have said is perfectly clear and understandable, the only sticking point is the distinguishing between the meaning of the words Begotten and created.

At the moment this is how I see it and can't see any other alternative. Perhaps I've missed something on which you could throw some light?

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ and sorry for the trouble.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[AK4]

Hi Roy,

Now let us take Gen.1:1 ---"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Here then we have the Only Begotten Son who has come forth (born of, given birth to) out of the Father

You're saying it right there, your just not seeing it.


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number:   3439  Browse Lexicon 
Original Word Word Origin
monogenhvß from (3441) and (1096)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Monogenes 4:737,606
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mon-og-en-ace'      Adjective 

Definition
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God 
   
King James Word Usage - Total: 9
only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1
 
   KJV Verse Count   
Luke 3
John 4
Hebrews 1
1 John 1


Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number:   1096  Browse Lexicon 
Original Word Word Origin
givnomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ginomai 1:681,117
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ghin'-om-ahee      Verb 

Definition
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
of men appearing in public to be made, finished
of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made 
   
King James Word Usage - Total: 678
be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52, become 47, God forbid + (3361)&version=kjv 15, arise 13, have 5, be fulfilled 3, be married to 3, be preferred 3, not translated 14, miscellaneous 4, vr done 2



King James Dictionary

Begotten


To have born; brought forth.
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is BEGOTTEN of him. (1 John 5:1)

Dictionary of Words from the King James Bible. Public Domain. Copy freely.

You're saying the same thing.  Created, begotten, made, brought forth, come to pass, etc etc. Your on it.


Col 1:15 - Show Context
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation

How do you get an image?  The camera makes an image of you.  The camera created/begat/made/brought forth an image of you.  How does the Father get an image of Himself?  Well really he can't.  He's Spirit.  He's invisible. 

Ro 1:20 - Show Context
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

The Father begat/created/made/brought forth an image of Himself.  Its like the Father took a picture of Himself to see what he looked like, instead of just a lifeless picture He create/begat/made/ brought for a being that will represent Him or better speaking be Him.

I look at like this.  If i'm God and i'm Spirit and i know that im going to make a physical world where that wont be able to see spirit, how can i get them to see me.  They will know me by my Word, but how will they see me.  Hmmmm i know i will create/begot/bring forth/make an being in my image for them who will have everything that I am in Him. ( I could go longer in this, but you get the jist)

Like i said earlier, you got it!! You just aint seeing it.

In Jesus,

Anthony

ps.  I tried to do all the apostrophes and the like.  You are killing me!

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

There are a plethora of Scriptures to say that the Father Begat the Son/Word but none to say that He created Him.

This is what is worrying me and I can't follow it. The God that spoke with Moses and Abraham in the wilderness was Jesus Christ and He announced that He was God. This is the same Jesus Christ we are talking about here so if He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob how could He have been created. If He was created He'd be no different to an angel, archangel or them for that matter, all created beings.

Good answer Anthony.  
Here is the Scripture for Christ being created.

Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)

Christ did come out of the Father as all things have, but we can see in that Scripture in Revelation that Jesus Christ was the very first of the Father creation.  We don't know how long it was or what happened between Christ's creation and when He created the universe.  It is my belief that Jesus Christ was created to be over (as God) and in charge of this creation (by the power of the Father) and I think that is what is being said in John 1.

John 1:3  All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Here is excerpts from the 'Trinity' paper that I think speak about this.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ---------------------

Jesus said He didn't need to "rob" God to be equal with Him. Why? Because the Father freely GAVE Jesus all that He had and possessed.  Jesus had ALL power and ALL authority and ALL judgment in heaven and earth.  Were these things the natural possessions of Jesus seeing that He is supposedly a third equal part of this trinity?   No, my friend. God GAVE Jesus all these things -- they had an origin and the origin is GOD THE FATHER.

Jesus Christ will be SUBJECT to God His Father for all eternity (See I Cor. 15:24-28).
v
v
Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the "firstborn" (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation. John 1:1, Heb 1, and Col 1 tell us that christ made ALL things. Don't insert the brackets and the word "other things" like the erroneous JW's try to do.That is not in the text.
v
v
[Ray Replies]

You suggest that Heb. 1:3 says that Jesus is the "substance" of God. I am not sure how you are using that word. Substance can mean both the "essence" of something or the "material" part of something. Jesus Christ had a physical body and could be seen, whereas God does not have a physical body (God is SPIRIT) and God cannot be seen as He is INVISIBLE. It is interesting to note that the KJV translates this word "[h]upo'stasis" into 'substance' but one time in Scripture and that is not in Heb. 1:3, but in Heb. 11:1, Now faith IS the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen."  Now that translation should receive some sort of prize for one the WORST possible translations in all Scripture.  

Paul said we are to live by FAITH and not SIGHT [or perception]. What is "substance and evidence" but things that can be seen, weighed and perceived? And things that can be SEEN AND HANDLED (as
in "substance") don't require faith in the first place. Faith is was is required when there IS NOT SUBSTANCE OR EVIDENCE! An infidel can believe in things he can see and handle!  Faith is the "assumption" or "confidence" or "assurance" ASIDE from any substance or evidence!

Possibly the Greek "[h]upo'stasis" can be used to mean substance, however, not in any Scripture that I am aware of.  And the same is true with Heb. 1:3. Jesus does not "consist" of the "substance" of God Who is invisible, but rather Jesus is the VISIBLE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD. God does not bear this visible substance which can be seen, therefore He send His Son in a VISIBLE form that can be seen (and heard).  

This same Greek word is found in other Scriptures, but it is NEVER translated "substance." Notice for example, II Cor. 9:4, and 11:17, Heb. 3:14. If the Father were to take to Himself a Form or a Substance then what we would see is CHRIST. Christ IS the express image, form, (or substance if you insist) of God His Father. However, the difference is that when Christ takes on all of the Father's form, image, character, etc., etc., we can see and hear and touch Him with our hands, but we still cannot see, hear or touch our Heavenly Father with our physical hands. Jesus said that when we SEE Him we SEE the Father even though the Father is INVISIBLE! Granted, this is a little higher than theology 101.

You state, "Man, don't you believe the Bible? Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the 'firstborn' (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation." Do you really think I never read that Scripture or don't believe it?

But notice how you answer this question in your own statement:  "Christ...the source of all GOD's creation."  There it is "God's" creation. There is always that ONE before and above Christ--God, His Father and His God!  It took REAL POWER to create the universe didn't it?   Where do you suppose Christ got that power? Man, don't you believe the Bible? (Just kidding).

Now seriously, Mat. 2818, "ALL POWER is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth."  There it is again, my friend. The FATHER is always in charge. And again, I Cor. 15:27-28,

"For He [the Father] hath put all things under His [Christ's] feet. But when He [the Father] saith, all things are put under Him [Christ] it is MANIFEST THAT HE [GOD THE FATHER] IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him."  

And not verse 28:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto Him [Christ], then shall the Son ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT unto HIM [HIS GOD AND FATHER] that PUT all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

No trinity here, my friend. In fact the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in these most bold declaration of God through Paul.

Rather than say "Christ is not the supreme deity" let me restate it so that you can hopefully and clearly see the concept that I am presenting. Paul tells us that God is a "family" in Ephesians. Jesus Christ is not the HEAD of that family of God, but rather the FATHER is the head and just as I quoted to you from the Scriptures in I Cor. 15, Jesus Christ will always be SUBJECT TO THE FATHER and no the other way around. Cannot you agree with that statement in Verse 28, "...then shall the SON also Himself be SUBJECT unto HIM [THE FATHER]...?  And let me just say that that word for subject in this verse is the same word used in Luke 10:20, "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits ARE SUBJECT unto you..." Since the spirits are "subject" to the apostles, how could we ever contend that they are EQUAL as in a "trinity?"

As far as Christ going around claiming He was God, He did not, however, I will concede that He did say before Abraham was "I AM."  Even when Pilate asked directly whether or not He was the Son of God, Christ refused to answer Pilate directly. If you noticed I made the statement at least twice in my paper, "Jesus IS GOD" "Christ is God."

Gotta run. Till next time. . .
Ray
----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Roy Monis]

Hi Roy,

Now let us take Gen.1:1 ---"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Here then we have the Only Begotten Son who has come forth (born of, given birth to) out of the Father

You're saying it right there, your just not seeing it.


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number:   3439  Browse Lexicon 
Original Word Word Origin
monogenhvß from (3441) and (1096)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Monogenes 4:737,606
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mon-og-en-ace'      Adjective 

Definition
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God 
   
King James Word Usage - Total: 9
only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1
 
   KJV Verse Count   
Luke 3
John 4
Hebrews 1
1 John 1


Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number:   1096  Browse Lexicon 
Original Word Word Origin
givnomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ginomai 1:681,117
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ghin'-om-ahee      Verb 

Definition
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
of men appearing in public to be made, finished
of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made 
   
King James Word Usage - Total: 678
be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52, become 47, God forbid + (3361)&version=kjv 15, arise 13, have 5, be fulfilled 3, be married to 3, be preferred 3, not translated 14, miscellaneous 4, vr done 2



King James Dictionary

Begotten


To have born; brought forth.
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is BEGOTTEN of him. (1 John 5:1)

Dictionary of Words from the King James Bible. Public Domain. Copy freely.

You're saying the same thing.  Created, begotten, made, brought forth, come to pass, etc etc. Your on it.


Col 1:15 - Show Context
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation

How do you get an image?  The camera makes an image of you.  The camera created/begat/made/brought forth an image of you.  How does the Father get an image of Himself?  Well really he can't.  He's Spirit.  He's invisible. 

Ro 1:20 - Show Context
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

The Father begat/created/made/brought forth an image of Himself.  Its like the Father took a picture of Himself to see what he looked like, instead of just a lifeless picture He create/begat/made/ brought for a being that will represent Him or better speaking be Him.

I look at like this.  If i'm God and i'm Spirit and i know that im going to make a physical world where that wont be able to see spirit, how can i get them to see me.  They will know me by my Word, but how will they see me.  Hmmmm i know i will create/begot/bring forth/make an being in my image for them who will have everything that I am in Him. ( I could go longer in this, but you get the jist)

Like i said earlier, you got it!! You just aint seeing it.

In Jesus,

Anthony

ps.  I tried to do all the apostrophes and the like.  You are killing me!

Hi! Anthony

I understand what you are saying. Father is Spirit and no one has seen Him. Perfectly correct. It also says that the Word was with God/Father and that the Word was God. The Word also is Spirit like the Father, an image of Him. Let's look at the wording; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-2). There is no mention of Jesus at this stage of creation, it was the Word, the direct image of the Father, God, whom the Father gave birth to, Begotten, that did the work of creation. The Creator God. "I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son; This day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."  (Ps.2:7-9). Begotten not created


Between this period and the creation of man, a body was prepared in readiness in accord to God's preordained plan for the Word. "But a body didst thou prepare for me; 6In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hadst no pleasure: Then said I, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God."(Heb.10:5-7). This is the Word speaking.

Now we come to the birth of Jesus. "But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt.1:20-21). "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."  (Jn.1:14).

The Word entered the body prepared in Psalm 2:7-9 and was impregnated into Mary by the Holy Spirit of the Father. Now we have Jesus as the Word of God/the Son of God with the quality of Deity. Jesus is now the Word, the CREATOR GOD, with full authority from the Father.
   
This is in accord with Ray's teaching, everything by Scripture and verified by Scripture. It is also in accord with the Word of God; "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."   (Acts 17:11).

As far as Revelation 3:14 is concerned; "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" Please check the superior fig. or reference number alongside beginning in the centre column of the Bible for its correct interpretation. You'll see it is a noun and means God the first born over all creation. The CREATOR of, but not part of.

I am not in anyway doing wrong, I'm following Ray's and the Bible's teaching to the letter. If I am wrong then prove it wrong and I'll willingly accept it. After all we are here to learn the truth and not accept anything but the truth. Is that not so? Please read all I have written very carefully before jumping to a conclusion and replying that is all I ask.

This proves that Jesus the man was created but Jesus the Word whom we worship and follow was Born of God and as such is God in His own right and not part of the creation, rather the CREATOR.

I missed this in Ray's paper on the Trinity theory, I printed it out for any that might want to argue the point, but didn't bother to read it myself because I've never believed in it in the first place since Matthew 1:18 & 20 knocks it on the head right away with no way out. End of story.

I know this may seem argumentative but it's not intended that way, I mean well, I'm in search of the truth as I'm sure we all are. I was only alerted to this when Samson came out with the statement "Thank the Father for creating Jesus Christ." This made me wonder why no one had questioned it, that's why I've raised it here. Not to criticize or debunk but to learn and the only way to learn is to ask questions.

NOW PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IT IS THAT I'M NOT SEEING? Because I can't see what you mean by that.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     


     

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

As far as Revelation 3:14 is concerned; "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" Please check the superior fig. or reference number alongside beginning in the centre column of the Bible for its correct interpretation. You'll see it is a noun and means God the first born over all creation. The CREATOR of, but not part of.

This is from the transcript of the Nashville Conference 2007 WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ----

"These things says the Amen [Jesus] the faithful and True Witness [Jesus] the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14).
There are three theories about how Christ came about.
1)  He came about for the first time as a human being, out of a physical mother.  That was the first time Christ ever existed.
2)  He was created sometime before that and them came into the mother.
3)  Then you have, He is eternal, He always existed.

Very few believe He just came into existence as a physical human being, for the first time ever.  Though I had one man argue with me for weeks.  He said, 'no, in the beginning was the Word and it was the Father, that the Word was God and not Christ'.  Not too many people believe that, but some do. 
Most people follow the Christian tradition and they believe no. 3, that Christ was eternal, He's part of the trinity and He's always existed.
But of course the truth is no. 2, Jesus Christ was created.

-"the Origin of God's creation" (James Moffatt).
-"God's creative Original" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
-"The Chief of the creation of God" (Young's Translation).
-"the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of God's creation" (The Amplified New Testament).

Well the truth of the matter is from those translations, you can't actually prove that He is not eternal, by that statement.  But you say, yea He's the beginning, He started the creation, He's eternal.  So to me it's a proof that He is the beginning.  Not the beginning of what God has created on the earth, but He Himself is 'the beginning' of God's creation.  It depends how you emphasize.  You have the same sentence with two totally different meanings. 
It's like, I tell you this day, today I'm telling you, you shall be in paradise.  Or.  I tell you, today you shall be in paradise.  And there's this one.  What's that up in the road ahead.  Or.  What's that up in the road, a head.
So we won't place a lot of emphasis on that one.  But one thing that we do know from that one is, before He was human, He was there!  So we know whatever His beginning was, He was there, at the beginning.
----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Roy Monis]

Hi Roy,

There are a plethora of Scriptures to say that the Father Begat the Son/Word but none to say that He created Him.

This is what is worrying me and I can't follow it. The God that spoke with Moses and Abraham in the wilderness was Jesus Christ and He announced that He was God. This is the same Jesus Christ we are talking about here so if He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob how could He have been created. If He was created He'd be no different to an angel, archangel or them for that matter, all created beings.

Good answer Anthony. 
Here is the Scripture for Christ being created.

Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)

Christ did come out of the Father as all things have, but we can see in that Scripture in Revelation that Jesus Christ was the very first of the Father creation.  We don't know how long it was or what happened between Christ's creation and when He created the universe.  It is my belief that Jesus Christ was created to be over (as God) and in charge of this creation (by the power of the Father) and I think that is what is being said in John 1.

John 1:3  All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Here is excerpts from the 'Trinity' paper that I think speak about this.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ---------------------

Jesus said He didn't need to "rob" God to be equal with Him. Why? Because the Father freely GAVE Jesus all that He had and possessed.  Jesus had ALL power and ALL authority and ALL judgment in heaven and earth.  Were these things the natural possessions of Jesus seeing that He is supposedly a third equal part of this trinity?   No, my friend. God GAVE Jesus all these things -- they had an origin and the origin is GOD THE FATHER.

Jesus Christ will be SUBJECT to God His Father for all eternity (See I Cor. 15:24-28).
v
v
Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the "firstborn" (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation. John 1:1, Heb 1, and Col 1 tell us that christ made ALL things. Don't insert the brackets and the word "other things" like the erroneous JW's try to do.That is not in the text.
v
v
[Ray Replies]

You suggest that Heb. 1:3 says that Jesus is the "substance" of God. I am not sure how you are using that word. Substance can mean both the "essence" of something or the "material" part of something. Jesus Christ had a physical body and could be seen, whereas God does not have a physical body (God is SPIRIT) and God cannot be seen as He is INVISIBLE. It is interesting to note that the KJV translates this word "[h]upo'stasis" into 'substance' but one time in Scripture and that is not in Heb. 1:3, but in Heb. 11:1, Now faith IS the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen."  Now that translation should receive some sort of prize for one the WORST possible translations in all Scripture. 

Paul said we are to live by FAITH and not SIGHT [or perception]. What is "substance and evidence" but things that can be seen, weighed and perceived? And things that can be SEEN AND HANDLED (as
in "substance") don't require faith in the first place. Faith is was is required when there IS NOT SUBSTANCE OR EVIDENCE! An infidel can believe in things he can see and handle!  Faith is the "assumption" or "confidence" or "assurance" ASIDE from any substance or evidence!

Possibly the Greek "[h]upo'stasis" can be used to mean substance, however, not in any Scripture that I am aware of.  And the same is true with Heb. 1:3. Jesus does not "consist" of the "substance" of God Who is invisible, but rather Jesus is the VISIBLE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD. God does not bear this visible substance which can be seen, therefore He send His Son in a VISIBLE form that can be seen (and heard). 

This same Greek word is found in other Scriptures, but it is NEVER translated "substance." Notice for example, II Cor. 9:4, and 11:17, Heb. 3:14. If the Father were to take to Himself a Form or a Substance then what we would see is CHRIST. Christ IS the express image, form, (or substance if you insist) of God His Father. However, the difference is that when Christ takes on all of the Father's form, image, character, etc., etc., we can see and hear and touch Him with our hands, but we still cannot see, hear or touch our Heavenly Father with our physical hands. Jesus said that when we SEE Him we SEE the Father even though the Father is INVISIBLE! Granted, this is a little higher than theology 101.

You state, "Man, don't you believe the Bible? Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the 'firstborn' (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation." Do you really think I never read that Scripture or don't believe it?

But notice how you answer this question in your own statement:  "Christ...the source of all GOD's creation."  There it is "God's" creation. There is always that ONE before and above Christ--God, His Father and His God!  It took REAL POWER to create the universe didn't it?   Where do you suppose Christ got that power? Man, don't you believe the Bible? (Just kidding).

Now seriously, Mat. 2818, "ALL POWER is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth."  There it is again, my friend. The FATHER is always in charge. And again, I Cor. 15:27-28,

"For He [the Father] hath put all things under His [Christ's] feet. But when He [the Father] saith, all things are put under Him [Christ] it is MANIFEST THAT HE [GOD THE FATHER] IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him." 

And not verse 28:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto Him [Christ], then shall the Son ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT unto HIM [HIS GOD AND FATHER] that PUT all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

No trinity here, my friend. In fact the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in these most bold declaration of God through Paul.

Rather than say "Christ is not the supreme deity" let me restate it so that you can hopefully and clearly see the concept that I am presenting. Paul tells us that God is a "family" in Ephesians. Jesus Christ is not the HEAD of that family of God, but rather the FATHER is the head and just as I quoted to you from the Scriptures in I Cor. 15, Jesus Christ will always be SUBJECT TO THE FATHER and no the other way around. Cannot you agree with that statement in Verse 28, "...then shall the SON also Himself be SUBJECT unto HIM [THE FATHER]...?  And let me just say that that word for subject in this verse is the same word used in Luke 10:20, "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits ARE SUBJECT unto you..." Since the spirits are "subject" to the apostles, how could we ever contend that they are EQUAL as in a "trinity?"

As far as Christ going around claiming He was God, He did not, however, I will concede that He did say before Abraham was "I AM."  Even when Pilate asked directly whether or not He was the Son of God, Christ refused to answer Pilate directly. If you noticed I made the statement at least twice in my paper, "Jesus IS GOD" "Christ is God."

Gotta run. Till next time. . .
Ray
----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

#############

Hi! Kath

Your quote to Anthony "Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (KJV). A glance at the superior against the word beginning says the first born, and I realize that that can be taken two ways, so let us take it further.

I know that the Word/Christ got His power and everything He possesses from His Father. All biological children have character traits from the parents but not the splitting image of the parents because there are two individuals involved. But in the case of the Father the Son is the snapshot image of Him because there is only One involved, which means that the snapshot image Son in His Father's bosom has all the character traits of the Father including the title of God but subject to Him, lower in rank. When the Father gives birth or begats the Son. The Son is God the Creator, the beginning of creation. Here we have the beginning of creation and it's what the superior against the word beginning in (Rev.3:14) means. The Creator/God is the First Fruit of the beginning not a created being.

If you must insist how do you address this verse? "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." (Micah 5:2).  How can a created being have existed eternally?   

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

I follow you right up to this statement, "When the Father gives birth or begats the Son. The Son is God the Creator, the beginning of creation. Here we have the beginning of creation and it's what the superior against the word beginning in (Rev.3:14) means. The Creator/God is the First Fruit of the beginning not a created being."

So the Son - Jesus Christ - Creator of the universe did come out of the Father, but are you saying that the Father did not create Him? 
As for the verse in Micah 5,

Mic 5:2  "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
       Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
       Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
       The One to be Ruler in Israel,
       Whose goings forth are from of old,
       From everlasting."

There are other verses that speak the the coming Messiah as if it were the Father speaking.

Deu 18:18  I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
v. 19  And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

1Sa 2:35  Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind. I will build him a sure house, and he shall walk before My anointed forever.

The God we always heard from in the OT was Jehovah, who became Jesus of the NT, He is the spokesman of the Father as no one has ever heard the Father's voice.

John 5:37  And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

John 12:49  For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

I believe Jesus Christ always spoke what the Father commanded in the OT as Jehovah and in the NT as Jesus Christ, as in says in Mal 3:6  "For I am the LORD, I do not change;"

We have a Scripture in the NT that appear as the Father spoke too.

Mat 17:5  While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"

We know that this was not the Father speaking either.  Here is an email on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5374.0.html ---

Dear Mark:
Notice that it was "a" voice, not the Father's voice. God has many millions of messengers (erroneously called "angels" in Scripture). A messenger delivers messages. These particular message was that "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him."  The messenger ("a voice") delivered the message.  Simple, huh?
God be with you,
Ray
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

If you must insist how do you address this verse?
"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." (Micah 5:2).  How can a created being have existed eternally?   

"If you must insist how do you address this verse?"

Bad translation.

Hi Roy,

Here it is in Rotherham's;

Micah 5:2 Thou therefore Bethlehem Ephrathah, though little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall Mine come forth, to be ruler in Israel, Whose coming forth have been from of old, from the days of age-past time.

Kat provided some compelling evidence from Ray's "Trinity" paper as well as email but the following article should also be of some help.

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

His Peace to you,

Joe

[AK4]

Hi Roy,
I will try to honor your request, but before i go any further i need to ask you some questions.

This proves that Jesus the man was created but Jesus the Word whom we worship and follow was Born of God and as such is God in His own right and not part of the creation, rather the CREATOR.

and on his thigh is written The Word of God.  Was the Word born at the same time Jesus was
created?  We all know Jesus is the world,

Joh 1:14  AndG2532 theG3588 WordG3056 was madeG1096 flesh,G4561 andG2532 dweltG4637 amongG1722 us,G2254 (andG2532 we beheldG2300 hisG846 glory,G1391 the gloryG1391 asG5613 of the only begottenG3439 ofG3844 the Father,)G3962 fullG4134 of graceG5485 andG2532 truth.G225
The same G3056 is in Jn 1.

logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.


So are you saying when God came up with the Thought (the Word)--G3056, this Thought was not created but rather born, by inclination of coming in to the mind of The Father. Then this Thought (Word) started creating and that that thought was not created?
So are you basically saying the Father instantly begot the Thought (the Word) and didnt have to question his thought and then started creating?----whoa i see your point with this question.

I walked away for a while and thought on this more.  I see what your are basically saying Roy. 

Basically its like this.  Can God come up with a thought without a cause.  Of course, He's God.  The Father does have free will right?  And If this was the case then yes, the Word could be seperate from the creation.  Think about it.  God the Father had no reason/cause to do anything, but in a instant He came up with the Thought and then this Thought starts following through on what came to God's mind.

On the other hand, Did the Father have a reason/cause to want to create anything?  In one of Ray's emails on the BT site he states that God is lonely (no scripture comes to mind of why God came up with this Thought/Word).  If this is the case or if any other thing caused God to even come up with the Thought then this Thought/Word was created.  Think about it.

Im trying not to think about it in a human way and of course our thoughts are not His thoughts.

So the question is why God created anything and even why this Thought came to His my mind?

Roy, as you are, i am also.  I want to know the full truth.  I believe if we know why the Word was even born/begotten/ or created we will have what we are looking for.

In Jesus,

Anthony

[OBrenda]

Forgive my simple mind. This is very interesting and possibly to deep for me, but I can't see the question clearly 

Is it what is the difference between, created & begotton?

We all have come into this world through natural conception.? (except Jesus)
Haven't we all been predestined by God for his purpose prior to our natural birth?

...

If I have a thought/idea....I want to paint a picture.
Doesn't that creation flow through that thought/idea?

I'm a little lost here, can someone throw me a fish net, and reel me in?

Brenda

[Roy Monis]

If you must insist how do you address this verse?
"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." (Micah 5:2).  How can a created being have existed eternally?   

"If you must insist how do you address this verse?"

Bad translation.

Hi Roy,

Here it is in Rotherham's;

Micah 5:2 Thou therefore Bethlehem Ephrathah, though little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall Mine come forth, to be ruler in Israel, Whose coming forth have been from of old, from the days of age-past time.

Kat provided some compelling evidence from Ray's "Trinity" paper as well as email but the following article should also be of some help.

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

His Peace to you,

Joe

#########

Hi! Joe

I don't have a Rotherham's Bible but I do have a KJV, NASV, Interlinear and a concordance and they all render it as eternity, and I can't see any difference in the age-past time translation. This means an age with no time barrier or timeless, eternal.

After being alerted to it by Samson I have now read Ray's paper on the Trinity and it is as you say overwhelming evidence against the Trinity farce which I never believed in in the first place and that is the reason why I didn't bother to read it earlier. But Ray does not show a great deal of evidence on the creation of Christ.

So it hasn't helped I'm sorry to say, but I appreciate your input.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
   

[hillsbororiver]

If you must insist how do you address this verse?
"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." (Micah 5:2).  How can a created being have existed eternally?   

"If you must insist how do you address this verse?"

Bad translation.

Hi Roy,

Here it is in Rotherham's;

Micah 5:2 Thou therefore Bethlehem Ephrathah, though little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall Mine come forth, to be ruler in Israel, Whose coming forth have been from of old, from the days of age-past time.

Kat provided some compelling evidence from Ray's "Trinity" paper as well as email but the following article should also be of some help.

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

His Peace to you,

Joe

#########

Hi! Joe

I don't have a Rotherham's Bible but I do have a KJV, NASV, Interlinear and a concordance and they all render it as eternity, and I can't see any difference in the age-past time translation. This means an age with no time barrier or timeless, eternal.

After being alerted to it by Samson I have now read Ray's paper on the Trinity and it is as you say overwhelming evidence against the Trinity farce which I never believed in in the first place and that is the reason why I didn't bother to read it earlier. But Ray does not show a great deal of evidence on the creation of Christ.

So it hasn't helped I'm sorry to say, but I appreciate your input.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
   

Hi Roy,

Did you check out the link I attached in my last post?  http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

Here is a portion of it;

ETERNAL DURATION AND MODERN CONCEPTIONS

It does not seem to have been generally considered by students of this subject that the thought of endless duration is comparatively a modern conception. The ancients, at a time more recent than the dates of the Old Testament, had not yet cognized the idea of endless duration, so that passages containing the word applied to God do not mean that he is of eternal duration, but the idea was of indefinite and not unlimited duration. I introduce here a passage from Professor Knapp, or Knappius, the author of the best edition of the Greek Testament known, and one in use in many colleges and ranks as a scholar of rare erudition. He observes:


"The pure idea of eternity is too abstract to have been conceived in the early ages of the world, and accordingly is not found expressed by any word in the ancient languages. But as cultivation advanced and this idea became more distinctly developed, it became necessary in order to express it to invent new words in a new sense, as was done with the words eternitas,perennitas, etc. The Hebrews were destitute of any single word to express endless duration. To express a past eternity they said before the world was; a future, when the world shall be no more. . . . The Hebrews and other ancient people have no one word for expressing the precise idea of eternity."

Here are a few other translations of this verse;

Micah 5:2 (New International Version)

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
       though you are small among the clans of Judah,
       out of you will come for me
       one who will be ruler over Israel,
       whose origins are from of old,
       from ancient times."

Micah 5:2 (New Living Translation)

But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah,
      are only a small village among all the people of Judah.
   Yet a ruler of Israel will come from you,
      one whose origins are from the distant past.

Micah 5:2 (English Standard Version)

But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah,
   who are too little to be among the clans of Judah,
from you shall come forth for me
   one who is to be ruler in Israel,
whose coming forth is from of old,
   from ancient days.


Micah 5:2 (Contemporary English Version)

Bethlehem Ephrath,

   you are one of the smallest towns

   in the nation of Judah.

   But the LORD will choose

   one of your people

   to rule the nation--

   someone whose family

   goes back to ancient times. 


Micah 5:2 (Young's Literal Translation)

And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth -- to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth [are] of old, From the days of antiquity.


Micah 5:2 (New International Version - UK)

2But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.

Micah 5:2 (Today's New International Version)
   
[a] 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
       though you are small among the clans of Judah,
       out of you will come for me
       one who will be ruler over Israel,
       whose origins are from of old,
       from ancient times."

Hope this is some help to you Brother.

Peace,

Joe

[Roy Monis]

Forgive my simple mind. This is very interesting and possibly to deep for me, but I can't see the question clearly 

Is it what is the difference between, created & begotton?

We all have come into this world through natural conception.? (except Jesus)
Haven't we all been predestined by God for his purpose prior to our natural birth?

...

If I have a thought/idea....I want to paint a picture.
Doesn't that creation flow through that thought/idea?

I'm a little lost here, can someone throw me a fish net, and reel me in?

Brenda

########

Hi! Brenda

This is what I'm about, the difference between Begotten and Created. There is a gulf as wide as East to West between them.

Let us first consider the physical world.

To be born it requires two individuals to be involved, the result boy/girl has the character traits of both father and mother, they are not mirror images of either one. They are separate individuals.

Now let us consider the spiritual.

The Father is Spirit and we are told that "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18) Only the Son who is in the bosom of the Father has seen Him. We are also told that; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (Jn.1:1-2) that the Word/Son/Christ was in the beginning, and that the Word was with God the Father, and that the Word was God.

This can only mean that the Son was in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning. In which case the Son has the identical character traits bestowed on Him by the Father as the Father is ONE GOD. "I and the Father are one."   (Jn.10:30). "Worthy art thou, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power: for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they were, and were created."  (Rev.4:11). In short a snapshot image of the Father but junior to or less than the Father by virtue of being His Son. "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (Jn.14:28).

What the Word of God is saying to me is that when the Father decided to start His work of Creation He brought forth, gave birth to His Only Begotten Son, who is a legitimate Son/God/Christ, and not a created God/Christ, who is then commissioned by the Father to create all things that are of or in the Father. Jesus Christ is the Creator/God and the beginning of all creation.

If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the creation not the CREATOR. That's what I believe and that is what the Word of God is saying to me following Ray's teaching, Scripture witness Scripture, spiritual witness spiritual.

I hope this answers your question?

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[hillsbororiver]

I can't see any difference in the age-past time translation. This means an age with no time barrier or timeless, eternal.

Roy,

How do you come to this conclusion? Because an event happened in an age in past time that means it is eternal or always was that way? This age past somehow denotes that is always was that way and had no beginning? That seems to be a huge stretch my friend.

A few examples;

During my grandfather's age in the late 1800's and early 1900's he farmed an area that in the past was all agricultural, that same area has now been a residential neighborhood for well over 80 years.

Before the age of the Roman Empire Alexander the Great made Greece one of the most dominant nation/empires of civilisations past.

In ages past most people did not travel more than 20 miles of where they were born.

Can you see no beginning in the above examples? Did all of these things exist eternally before they changed?

Peace,

Joe

[AK4]

hi all,

If I have a thought/idea....I want to paint a picture.
Doesn't that creation flow through that thought/idea?

That's what im saying.  We would have a cause to paint that picture.  But did God have a cause to want to create or did it just come out of nowhere and then boom (pardon my expression please).

That is what i think Roy is saying the difference in begotten and created.  And looking at what strong's has put for the Logos, i can see what Roy is saying.  Has anyone found a scripture where it mentions why God wanted to create?  Why he even came up with the thought, or desire to?

Anthony

[Dave in Tenn]

Roy, my overall impression of the paper was that Ray did what Trinity theorists don't do...that is he stuck with what scripture we have and didn't venture 'extra-biblically' to explain it.  Now..how can he, or you, or I 'explain' God?  We can find statements in scripture that describe certain characteristics of God, and teach/believe them as Truth.  But even the scriptures don't explain or define 'Spirit', tell us exactly HOW God created the Heavens and the Earth, what existed before it's creation, what the interaction and relationship of Spirit to the Physical is all about, how God will raise the dead, none of the characteristics of God.  When it comes to God, the scriptures themselves are parables.  Does the Father have hands, a face, a backside?  What is Spirit?  What is Love, even? 

So we have scripture that says the Son is both created and begotten.  Makes me feel a little like Peter after Jesus 'explained' a parable.  "Yes, Lord, I understand now."  Oh really?  I'm very sure that the Scriptures go deeper than I know now, but I'm convinced beyond being unconvinced that we cannot know now what those words really MEAN when it comes to God.  To Rays' credit, I think, he doesn't go where Angels fear to tread.  All language 'falls short of the Glory of God'.  All we have are symbols, because in the end, that's what words themselves are.