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[musicman]

I was just interested in the oppinions of others here on an issue.  As my title suggests, I am a musician.  I take musical performance very personal as monetary compensation comes in at a distant second, to the opportunity of playing music.  Afterall, I pay my bills in a field having little to do with musical skill (I teach music to children). 

The problem (if that is the proper term) is in my dealings with Babylon.  See, as a musician it is unwise to refuse work.  This includes work involving the Babylonian church system.  For instance, today (Easter Sunday) I played two services at a church and made some cash.  I also played in an Easter Pagent last week.  Now, I cringe at the thought of serving the Synogogue of Satan but I feel that this is part of being an instrumental performer (which I most definately am).  Now it's one thing to attend church out of curiosity for what may be taught there these days.  It's another thing to serve them for musical exposure or monetary gain. 

I would like any oppionions that truth seekers here may provide on this subject.   

[Craig]

Everybody here can give you an opinion, and that's all it would be, opinion. 

We are not under the law but under the Spirit of God.  Now what does that small, still voice say to you?

If you are asking the question, you must be troubled.  I have found in my walk that when I am doing something that is troubling to my spirit, then maybe I should not do it.  I don't always listen however, and the older I get the more I can look back and see that I should have listened to that voice.

I don't know your age but I wish someone would have told me this when I was younger, Sorin and Alex listen up   Trust that voice of the Spirit, we are all in a spiritual struggle; the voice of God vs the voice of the beast within.  If you feel the pull towards the flesh and deep down it does not seem right to you, then don't do it.  Life is full of these types of choices and the choices we make (and baggage it carries) will be with us the rest of our lives.

Choose wisely, most who have chosen wrong in their lives will tell you they felt deep down that they ignored their intuition concerning their actions.  God puts us on this earth and puts heavy obstacles in our paths, knowing that we will fail by our own unwise choices.  But I also believe He puts the ability through His spirit to know what the wise choice would be, we just choose to ignore it.

Blessings
Craig

[psalmsinger]

The Lord shut every door to me for "church musician" as he slowly opened others.  It was very curious. I used to wonder why....................

The Lord will answer the question about why He has opened that particular door for you in time.

Rest in the Lord,

Barbara

[dewey]

Hey, Musicman, my brother

You feel that you've done wrong - but have you really?  I like most of your posts.  Some of them are very spiritual.  Some of them are downright funny.  And most of them are something that Jesus would have said himself.   You say that you feel guilty for earning money; have you given a thought about how many people you made happy today?  Your music is a God-given talent.  You may have spoken one word to just one person and that could very well be the reason that you were there.  If you weren't supposed to be there the spirit that we share would have stopped you.  But, if you did this on your own, awwwwwwwh are you in trouble!!  (jokin' my brother, just jokin').   

The music that came from your heart today could have and probably was for holy purposes.  The cash was a bonus.  God gave you this ability to make people happy.  Whether you get paid or not is beside the point.  Hey, my brother, don't make me tell you this scripture where Jesus tells our Father that he does not want to take his people out of the world.  You know the one I speak of.  But I have to tell you, my friend, that now you have second thoughts and you feel conviction you may never want to do that again.  On the other hand, I can't help but think that the Spirit that has encouraged you to preach the Gospel in your own way (thru song) is directing you as His Will Be Done.  I do not think that you should feel guilty for proclaiming the word of Jesus.  Whether thru a pulpit or thru song.  I'm not sure Jesus has a preference.  It's what's in your heart that counts.
\
In His Spirit,

Paula & Dewey Love All People That Will Let Us

[CEO]

Musicman

Tough question.  We are in this world; not of this world.  We influence others, your presence in the 'synagogue' would lead others to think you approve of what the synagogue represents.  On the other hand others influence us, knowing you you mentally critique and rebut what is being taught ie. you are not influenced by them, among them not in them.

Why did Jesus associate with the undesirables of his culture?  To show a better way.  How does your playing show a better way?  To your fellow musicians it sure can be an opportunity!

Why did Paul enter the synagogues, the seat of Satan?  To show a better way, to convert from one religion to the true.  Is this the same reason we enter the synagogue?

All of us need income.  The source of income always comes from the carnal world.  Would Ray have done a roofing job for a church?

Let me know what your answer is.

Askseeknock Charles

[David]

Wow Musicman, they pay you for performing in services? My old Church owes me some money 
Seriously, as has been pointed out by CEO, it is your profession, therefore when you perform you should be paid if that is what has been agreed. If a Christian electrician was employed to do some wiring in a Jewish Synagogue, or a Muslim mosque, or a Church that conflicted with his denomination, would he refuse to do it and would he be Biblically right in doing so? I couldn't answer that myself, but it sure would limit ones options to make a living were you to ONLY work for people that believed exactly as you do. For all a Christian bus driver knows, he could be picking up a member of Anton Levey's church of satan. So long as you don't partake of them spiritually, do nothing illegal or immoral, thats about as good as you can do.

1 Cor 10:31-33 ........whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

I had a hard time with this scripture for a long time. I worried myself to distraction as whether all that I did was to the Glory of God. Well as carnal human beings, the chances are the answer is no we are not, not 24/7. But so long as we recognise it, and strive to do all to the Glory of God 24/7, we're on the right path.
A brother who was an elder in my old Church once said to me because I played in a heavy Rock band (that plays mostly Christian songs) "I don't think what you are doing in this band of yours is acceptable, certainly not in this Church anyway. You're a member of our worship team, it just doesn't seem right that you should do this as well." I could have been more gracious with my reply, but it just rubbed my carnal mind up the wrong way at the time. I knew he was a manager of a local supermarket. I said to him "Well I'll do you a deal, you go pull that beam out of your eye, quit your job at thew supermarket that sells soft pornographic magazines, magazines that promote homosexuality, hard liquor, violent movies and video games, and I'll quit my band." It didn't go down well.
Be blessed
David.

[Chris R]

I'll give my two cents,

I played at churches, years ago...it wasnt the music..it turned out to be the lyrics that bothered me. most of the lryics where just wrong...and even to this day..i just cant bring myself to play or sing them.

As for the wise crack about supermarket managers [ I run a super market ] hahaha

I sell kosher hotdogs to, also fatty greasy foods...nearly everything on the shelves has been tested and can cause some sort of health problem IF you over induldge. And if your looking at womens magazines, and lusting after the models posing on the front cover...who has the problem?..you cant walk down a street in america and not see the same thing.

Chris R

[David]

I'll give my two cents,

I played at churches, years ago...it wasnt the music..it turned out to be the lyrics that bothered me. most of the lryics where just wrong...and even to this day..i just cant bring myself to play or sing them.

As for the wise crack about supermarket managers [ I run a super market ] hahaha

I sell kosher hotdogs to, also fatty greasy foods...nearly everything on the shelves has been tested and can cause some sort of health problem IF you over induldge. And if your looking at womens magazines, and lusting after the models posing on the front cover...who has the problem?..you cant walk down a street in america and not see the same thing.

Chris R

Hi Chris. Yes is was a wise crack and I shouldn't have said it. Although the point I was making was the very point you have made here, there's pretty much nothing we can do these days where temptation is not around us, and no occupation that does not have some connection, however vague to something sinful.

[phazel]

But I also believe He puts the ability through His spirit to know what the wise choice would be, we just choose to ignore it.

OK, this is exactly why I can't wrap my mind around having no free will.   According to what we believe Ray has taught, the choice to ignore it was the only choice that could have happened, yet you word this as if thats not so.

[hillsbororiver]

Exposing Those Who Contradict

Part 3

FREE WILL

"The One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11).

But the buck stops at God's throne. He has not given us the same powers He possesses, that's for sure. But man, puny man, thinks he has "human free will" that is never caused or made to think or do anything. Man thinks himself sovereign in this assumed free will.

The Scriptures know nothing of "human free will." This is just another case of human ignorance. Men do not possess free will, because free will does not exist. The reason that "free will" (the ability to make uncaused choices) does not exist is because it is a physiological impossibility!

The first edict of the universe is "cause & effect."

Nothing in heaven or earth can happen without a cause. For every effect there is a cause. There are no exceptions. No effect or happening of any kind in the universe, on earth, in our bodies, or in our minds can come into existence without a cause. And if something is caused, it cannot be free. That would be a total contradiction of words and logic. Humans do have wills. But wills are not free from causality.

" ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).

This involves countless unperceived forces.

Don't confuse "will" with "choice." Someone might say: "If our choices, are caused, then how can one call it a 'choice'-isn't that a contradiction?" Not at all. Free will demands that when someone makes a "free will" choice, no thing or no one made or forced him to do so. It was completely up to him-one way or the other. People simply confuse the meaning and definition of words. The word "choice" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the choice could have been avoided. A choice is merely what we prefer. Nowhere does the word "choice" carry with it the notion of "avoidability."

When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers most at that instant. Nevertheless, something still caused that choice, whether one sees or feels its presence or not. One can argue that one made a free choice because one desired to do so. It still doesn't matter-the desire caused the choice, and the desire, itself, was caused. There are no exceptions. One may suggest that one did or said something without a cause simply because one willed to do so. Fine. But then even you are admitting that the choice had a cause, namely your will. One's wills and desires are not free from the laws of God or the laws of physics. These demand a cause for every effect. Man is not a deity. Man's will is not independent from his Creator (Phil. 2:13).

Read Mat. 7:18-23. Our Lord speaks of a large group of people (many), " ... in that day," who will justify their Christian walk by: "prophesying in Christ's name," "casting out demons," and "doing many wonderful works." (Ver. 22). Sounds pretty good to me. But there seems to be a problem when Christ says: " ... depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Ver. 23).

"Iniquity" is not the proper translation here. The Greek word is anomon-UN-LAWness or LAWLESSNESS. Man thinks by nature he is above the law in that "free will" is, itself, lawless. Thinking himself equipped with "free will" man feels a certain equality with his Creator. "Human free will," therefore, becomes the epitome of man's lawlessness. Man thinks himself a potter. However, to man's chagrin, God says He is the Potter and man is the "pot" (Isa. 64:8).

And God hates pride (Prov. 6:17, 16;18, 29:23), which is the bed-buddy of human "free will."

Anyone who is so deluded as to think he possesses powers so great as to be able to thwart the very Will of God, is certainly disqualified from being a teacher of the Word of God!

"Sin is lawlessness" (I Jn. 3:4). Free will is lawlessness.

http://bibletruths.com/part3.htm

This is a concept that is not the easiest to fully comprehend but if you really meditate on all the implications, when you were born (hour, day, year), who you were born to, your height, your intellect, the color of your hair and eyes, the country, state, city you were born in, what school you went to, the people who are/were your friends or enemies in the neighborhood you grew up in, the teachers you had in school.

Can anyone make an honest claim that they themselves chose when to be born or who their parents would be? You can "choose" your friends but from a finite set of people, you can "choose" do well in school (assuming you have the intellect) and the teachers you have are committed and competent but how many of these choices are "free choices?" The things that you can actually choose were caused by circumstances too numerable to list.

It is not the natural way for us to think as we have been indoctrinated with this false "free will" concept for all of our lives up until now, it is also a bit of an ego buster to contemplate how little we actually really control, we can attempt to make the best choices given our present understanding but when you really think about it the choices we are presented with are caused by an external Force greater than any and every man.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Craig]

But I also believe He puts the ability through His spirit to know what the wise choice would be, we just choose to ignore it.

OK, this is exactly why I can't wrap my mind around having no free will.   According to what we believe Ray has taught, the choice to ignore it was the only choice that could have happened, yet you word this as if thats not so.

No doubt that "free will" is tough to wrap.  I may have worded things wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

The following is how I wrap my mind on the free will issue.  Its my way of thinking, if I'm wrong I am open to correction, but I will not get into a what if debate either.  So here goes

We have choices, we make choices, God knows what our choices will be before we make them.  But at the same time I believe God puts it in our being to actually make a choice on things.  Do you think a sane person who murders has some thought go through his/her mind "I maybe should not do this"?
Musicman asked about a choice he is making. We all make choices and as we become closer to God, the choices get harder and harder, like musicmans.

Say I have a choice to make on whether to lie or not.  I know in my spirit, I should not lie, but ignore the voice of the Spirit and lie like a politician.  God created me in the weakened carnal state, so he knows what choice I will make, (I will fail)  and I will be held accountable for my choice. 

In our fallen state our choices are made on our own desires and wants, not God's.  God made us in the state we are in (carnal, sinning machines) so he is responsible for our spiritually weakened state, but we will be accountable for our fleshed out choices and desires, because we want to make them!  We ignore the voice of God in us and continue to do so until God drags us out of the mud of our flesh and we begin to pay attention to him.  It is a required step we all go through until God is all in all.

Cause and effect does come into play also.  It is only by the grace of God that I/all of us are not murderers and Hitlers.  Given the same circumstances (causes) we would all make the same spiritually weakened choices as these people, but God chose to lead us not into those temptations.  God makes us vessels of honor and dishonor, and who are we (clay) to question the potter?   But alas, I do and we all do,

If, in this lifetime, we could be of the same Spirit of God and one with Him, out of the thousands of choices we make a day, all our choices would be true and correct (Like Christs).  But we are not given this oneness of spirit, it is being made in our being.  We are being created into the image of God.

God knows the beginning and ending and the perfect steps it takes to go from one to the other.

We are not being made into puppets we are being perfected to being like Christ, where we are given many choices, and we make the right choices.  Then we can say that "I and my Father are one."

This is my thoughts on working out the "free will" illusion and I still struggle with the "whys".  I believe that "free will" is the hardest truth to comprehend because "free will" is the 'Heart and mind" of the beast (carnal man) and he won't let it easily die.

A good email of many
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html

Craig

[mharrell08]

Great post Craig...I couldn't agree with you more.

[hillsbororiver]

Great response Craig,

Our minds, desires and weaknesses are as unique as our DNA and our fingerprints, God is creating each and every one of us according to His plan, no two of us exactly the same. The one thing we will all eventually have (as you explained above) is our own wills aligned with the will of God.

This does not come easily or without the tribulations that more often than not come from making the wrong decision consciously from the heart, we usually know when we are making a bad choice but out of anger, lust, selfishness, impatience, etc. we do it anyway. Once we begin to really become sick and tired of the consequences and of ignoring that small, quiet (yet persistant) voice within then, and only then will we lay to rest our own will and seek only His.

We all need to listen intently to hear Him speaking to us and follow where He leads.

Peace,

Joe
 

[Deborah-Leigh]

From your post Joe, quoting Ray : When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers

This is so revealing as to show us what we prefer. WHAT WE PREFER, points to our spiritual condition. This is why we work out our salvation in fear and trembling because God willing, He shows to us our spiritual condition. When God does this, the consequence should be, fear and trembling knowing God is the potter and we are the clay. Only by His Grace we are made into vessles that house the Spirit of His Son.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Chris R]

Great response Craig,

Our minds, desires and weaknesses are as unique as our DNA and our fingerprints, God is creating each and every one of us according to His plan, no two of us exactly the same. The one thing we will all eventually have (as you explained above) is our own wills aligned with the will of God.

This does not come easily or without the tribulations that more often than not come from making the wrong decision consciously from the heart, we usually know when we are making a bad choice but out of anger, lust, selfishness, impatience, etc. we do it anyway. Once we begin to really become sick and tired of the consequences and of ignoring that small, quiet (yet persistant) voice within then, and only then will we lay to rest our own will and seek only His.

We all need to listen intently to hear Him speaking to us and follow where He leads.

Peace,

Joe

I also agree, The further we journey, the rougher the road.

We must repent, and God grants us this repentance, It is not of ourselves, unless we should boast and have pride in a accomplishment none of us are able to claim.  While we make choices good and bad, God has known from the beginning who are His, and there is nothing we are capable of doing that will change this one truth.

Will Gods chosen PRAY for wisdom...YES.. Will Gods Chosen ask for repentance..YES.. Will Gods Chosen NOT BE CHOSEN....NO!

All these things are directed from God, There in lies the demolishing blow to "free will".... One little verse

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[John 6:37]

Peace

Chris R
 

[hillsbororiver]

I also agree, The further we journey, the rougher the road.

Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Peace,

Joe

[roundbellygroove]

OK, Here's my two cents worth...

Musicman I can relate to your current situation. I too am a musician and have come to the very same crossroad that you are at. I currently volunteer at two community ministries and play drums for the worship team at my church. I understand how necessary it is to take jobs as a musician to support a family.  This is where the Lord has reviled to me my design and purpose.  Understand by God given nature, I am best with some type of instrument in my hand. Everything else I have tried to do(as a profession) I usually do fine for awhile and then become very miserable. Sure I make great money, have health insurance along with paid time off, but I'm not doing what I'm created to do and that is to play with all of my heart. Now some of you reading this might not understand what I'm talking about unless you are a heart and soul musician. There is something in musicans that keeps us playing and creating music all the time regardless of our circumstances. As a matter of fact...It's the circumstances that gives us a reason to play. I'm not referring to the wanna be's out there that want to be in the lime light in front of thousands. I'm taking about those that everything is musical to them. Everything in the sense that you notice machinery clacking together has a rhythmic timing or birds chirping possess a melodic phrase. Again there is something unique that God has placed in us to "Hear" and understand differently than others.
So here we are... and Lord has lead us to the truth through Ray. What do we do now? Knowing that 99% of modern day religions contradict God's truths AND going total secular is really not the way to go.(unless willed by the Creator)  Through a series of events the Lord reveled to me many types of "christian musicans".  Remember I work for a couple of community ministies as a sound engineer and have come across just about every kind of example there is. 
The first "type" is your full blown Babylonian musician. Usually very talented but is there strictly for the fame and what ever fortune they can get their hands on. Sure their songs have the word Jesus in them but, for the most part they are there to show off their talent and squeeze a buck or two in the process.
The next "type" is kind of like the previous but hides behind the mask of humility. They will give away a few Cd's or a t-shirt but really want people to tell them that they are really good and buy their stuff. Most church folk will think highly of them, because they are so humble and are willing to be a "starving artist" for the lord.
Then there is 3rd type...This to me is the real deal!!! They posses the heart of a true worshiper and only uses their talent to glorify the Lord at all times. They don't have a problem playing for free if necessary and are quick to develop relationships with others. You will find them after a show sharing their testimony, praying for others and in-couraging others to stay in the faith. Not being near the merchandise table to pimp out their stuff .  OH!!! and not mention that when they play the presence of the Lord is so thick you can barley stand regardless of their skill level. The Lord reviled to me that I am the latter of the three. 

SO WHAT DO I DO FOR AN INCOME LORD!!!! I asked. Then he shows me to How to charge for my for my talent by offering music lessons, sound and recording training sessions, PA installations, equipment consultation\repair.  The funny thing is... that all of my clientel are church establishments that do not share the same views as we do here at BT!  However I do supplement my work with skills that I have learned from other jobs as well. I do painting, tile setting and general maintenance on the side, but most of the time I'm dealing with your typical modern day church.

Musicman I hope my babbling will help you. As long as deep down in your heart you are Kingdom minded you will be fine. The Lord will reveal to you from time to time which jobs you should or shouldn't take.

roundbellygroove

[phazel]

Now some of you reading this might not understand what I'm talking about unless you are a heart and soul musician.

Actually, I know exactly what you talking about and I couldn't carry a tune if someone else held it for me.

I am an auto technician and have been for the last 30 years, I never tire of it.  I know people that make much more money than I do, but they cannot say they love thier job.   You can rarely get them to talk much about there job and I have a hard time not sounding prideful because I have a lot of great stories to tell about my work.

But I cannot imagine doing anything else, others have suggested that I try a new career or go back to college and learn something else.  I say, why would I stop doing something I love?  For me, there just isn't enough money to be made to cause me to endure hours and hours doing something I would just tolerate.  I would go mad.

[musicman]

Hey Phazel:

I just received a call from the Pope.  They need someone to work on his escort vehicle (you know, the one that he stands and waves to everybody in?).  I was going to recommend you for the job.  It pays well and you will be serving the Catlics well.  Are you interested in the job?

[phazel]

Hey Phazel:

I just received a call from the Pope.  They need someone to work on his escort vehicle (you know, the one that he stands and waves to everybody in?).  I was going to recommend you for the job.  It pays well and you will be serving the Catlics well.  Are you interested in the job?

Sure, i think if I did that I would automatically be forgiven of my sins and I might skip purgatory if I filled up the washer jug with holy water.

Will holy water freeze?