> General Discussions
Eternal Life not promised?
Lightseeker:
Chrissie,
--- Quote ---Thus "Age Abiding" is the same as immortality
How are they the same? Does everyone get "age-abiding" (or aionios) life? Who does get it? When do they get it?
--- End quote ---
love_magnified
--- Quote ---Exactly. Aionios has no other meaning than "pertaining to ages." It carries no weight, or descriptive power other than that. The word we should focus on is not aionios, but L-I-F-E. And ask the question, is life tomorrow, or today. Therein lies the answer to what aionios life is.
--- End quote ---
Good questions Chrissie. Let me try to elaborate on the good response of what Love_ said. We're talking about the word aion and its derivative aionios. Right on Love_!
The word aion is defining a quantity of time while aionios is a quality of or within that same time period. It's not as much dependent upon the exact time of that period, as it is a quality that exists within that time period. For example: There is 60 minutes in an hour. If we have 5 hourly meetings tomorrow does that mean we necessarily were in each of them for 60 minutes? No it doesn't. It just means we participated (for a period of time) within each of those 60 minute hourly (time frame) meetings. The same is true with an aion, which is an age/eon or a definite period or length of time (just how long we don't know, God knows). But we can experience aionios life within that aion time period. Aionios life is a quality of life that pertains to that age/aion. The YLT always says age-during concerning the translation of aionios (like Love_ mentioned "pertaining to ages"). In other words it's speaking to something that happens during that age). What's happening is determined by an associated word (such as life age-during, death age-during, punishment age-during ect). I can receive the aionian chastisements/punishments/judgments of God in my lifetime (however long that may be) but they all take place within this aion/age (however long it may be). But I'm hoping for immortality or 'the quality of God's life/aionian' which will allow me live to the end of this aion/age.
Aidios on the other hand speaks of not ages/aions or qualities within those ages/aionios, but it speaks of endless time foreward and backward. Included in aidios is all the aions/ages.
The reason Ray says God promises no one aidios life, is because aionian life (or 'the life' of that age) is 'within' aidios life (God's eternal life). So aonian life 'during this age' is equal to the aidios or eternal life that exists with God. Aionian is a quality of time that takes place within God's quantity of time aidios/eternal.
I hope I'm doing this picture justice because I'm drawing on some faded out grey matter concerning a teaching read years ago. Not many places to discuss this kind of stuff so it's not been challenged/reinforced/meditated upon enough to explain any better. I'm also at the daughter's house this weekend and was really just going to 'look' today...not post. :roll:
One last thought. If time is a created entity...and God lives outside that 'box' looking in (therefore seeing the "end from the beginning), then we aren't looking for a definition of eternity anyway because eternity is time without end...isn't it? What we will enter into, when we enter into God's LIFE in the hereafter, is really timelessness...isn't it?
Let the wheels turn. :idea: I gotta get back to family. :arrow:
Happy 'pappy day' tomorrow to all those of you who are. And I guess only those in USA?
Daniel:
To see "The End" of the first thing, is looking at the Begining HIMSELF. The words expressing "The End" in scripture express WHO Christ is in relation to "the Covenants". He IS "The End" of the FIRST (covenant) and HE IS "The Begining" of The SECOND (covenant).
Thats why there is what appears a contradiction of "terms" within "words". HE is the Rock of THE AGES. That of THE AGE (limited Duration, apponted time of the Father) of The Child, "under the Law". He is also "THE END" of THAT AGE (THE LAW) but IN HIMSELF "HE" is WITHOUT END.
So you have AGE, END and WITHOUT END. Seeing these without seeing Him in the "midst of them" causes the disputes and misses THE MARK of what they speak of.
HE is also, THE BEGINNING, of WHAT? The SECOND AGE, whats THAT? The AGE of a SON. We from HERE receive THE END of our FAITH which AGAIN IS HIM (Who IS BOTH "The Begining" AND "The End") BUT who is "WITHOUT" BEGINING OR END (IN HIMSELF)
Thats why you see beginings and ends and ages tied together and it becomes a complete MESS without seeing Him standing in the midst of these things.
I'll stay completely out of this if I feel it will go nowhere but into dispute :lol:
Peace
Daniel
jerreye:
Thanks Chuck, Daniel for your responses...
I understand that a thousand years is AS (like) a day unto God. I believe that. But this to me is simply saying that time is not an issue with God. I don't see how it relates directly to "THE thousand year reign" :?
Isn't it clear that THE thousand year reign starts just AFTER the first resurrection? We certainly are not yet "reigning over the nations with any rod of iron" that I can see :shock:
We ALL are going to die physically (unless He return prior to that...let's HOPE! :o )....but THE resurrection back to life happens when our DEAD soul is reunited with a SPIRITUAL BODY. This has yet to happen, obviously. So, THE resurrection is yet future, so doesn't this mean that THE thousand year reign is yet FUTURE and NOT now?
This is how I see it when I read the scripture....However, if what you guys are really trying to say is that we, the true believers, have it (the LIFE, the SPIRIT etc) in EARNEST (down payment) and NOT in FULLNESS, then THAT I understand and FULLY agree, because that is what I see in scripture!
I believe we have ALL of these things (at least those to whom the "ends of the ages have already attained") in earnest only at this time.
But let me tell ya, the earnest is sure better than nothing! :D
chrissiela:
Jerreye,
To go into a lot of details about what I do or don’t believe about the thousand years or the ruling and reigning with Christ might cause me to step TOO FAR over the line that I try to respect here.
I try to stay on COMMON ground were I can out of respect for Ray and for those here who believe as is taught by Ray (I used to be one of those people).
I can only say that we need to always continue to seek and to ask God for the wisdom and knowledge to see the deeper, hidden things.
We need to ask “what does ‘this’ or ‘that’ MEAN"?
For instance:
What does it mean to “rule and reign with Christ a thousand years�?
What does it mean to “rule the nations with a rod of iron? What IS a “rod of iron�? What are “the nations�?
Who are the “dead�? What does it mean to be “dead�? What does it mean to be “resurrected from the dead�?
What is the “earnest� of the spirit? And How does that relate to “moving on to maturity�?
What is the difference between a “child� and a “son�?
What is "THE resurrection"?
(Is not Chirst THE resurrection and THE life?)
Lot’s of questions to be asked and answered.
My understanding used to be exactly the same as yours. Whether right or wrong, God has seen fit to change it, in at least a few areas.
Blessings,
Chrissie
jerreye:
Chrissie,
I certainly do not want to cause you to "go too far", chrissie. My intentions on this forum are pure. I hope you believe that.
You state that we need to seek the deeper, hidden things of God (the MEAT, if you will). This is true, but we shouldn't even consider it until we have a firm grasp of the milk... If we don't have a SOLID and sustained diet of sincere spiritual milk, then moving directly on to the meat is a very risky and dangerous venture and can cause a person to start teaching serious heresy.
Much love to you :)
Jeremy
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