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Soul/Spirit Question
Deborah-Leigh:
--- Quote ---Do you think I am off base
--- End quote ---
I do not see the premise you are working with.
--- Quote ---or do you know what Ray may think of what I see as Adam
--- End quote ---
No. I do not know what Ray may think of what you see as Adam. I don’t even know what you see as Adam. Your premise is not disclosed.
--- Quote ---I see as Adam representing our spirit while Eve represents our soul.
--- End quote ---
Ahah, finally! There is the premise! Okay, lets look at this through the BT spectrum.
Number one, where is your Scripture that supports this premise that Adam is OUR Spirit and Eve is our soul? This would be necessary to find as is stated in the 12 Godly ways to understanding Gods word. Find two witnesses to uncover, discern and evaluate or test doctrine.
I can think of just one Scripture that throws your whole premise overboard. Jesus is the LAST Adam but this is not about what I believe, it is about looking at what you believe. So there you go. Your foundation at first glance, does not appear to be Scriptural. Seductive? Yes. Very enticing. Yes. Spit it out. RUN! Have you ever smelt the first sweet smell of a anesthetic? Stay alert. :)
--- Quote ---It is when the spirit rules the soul that all is well but when the soul rules there is carnality.
--- End quote ---
This comes straight out of Babylon. This is a teaching that is in Theology one. Heresy is universal to Babylon and blasphemy they have in common.
--- Quote ---when the spirit rules the soul
--- End quote ---
Where is the Scripture to support this theory of manmade doctrines of demons? Don’t be offended cp. This relates entirely to the Doctrines of Babylon of which you are called to “come out.”
--- Quote ---when the spirit rules the soul that all is well but when the soul rules there is carnality.
--- End quote ---
When the spirit RULES the soul but when the soul RULES…..wha wha…wha WHAT. When ever does the soul RULE? Oh! As in when the soul thwarts the perfect Plan and Purpose of God? No. Not then. When the soul manifests its desires contrary to the Spirit? Is that when the soul RULES? No. There is no contest cp. The soul manifests the weakness of the heart in the lusts of the flesh that cannot and does not walk according to the Spirit. A soul cannot rule anything.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
You may, or someone else may think I am being high handed with you cp but I am simply applying tools given to us all to USE in the paper we have titled TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD L Ray Smith
--- Quote ---I find this spiritual take very fitting with all of Scripture like when Paul talks of the husband and wife and so forth.
--- End quote ---
There is another base/premise/axiom in there somewhere. :D
All I did with your first comment was to apply the test of The 12 Truths! This shows up what is true and what is false. I don’t want to humiliate you. I would prefer you use your God given intelligence to tear down the idols of error and blasphemy and try to see them for yourself. Gently of course! :)
You say you like the heat of debate. This is a far more beneficial practice don’t you think? Apply the truth to see the lies using the tools of discernment.
May you never be the same again. :)
Arc
G. Driggs:
--- Quote from: claypot on March 22, 2010, 05:04:09 PM ---You do see Adam and Eve as us, all of us don’t you?
Do you think I am off base or do you know what Ray may think of what I see as Adam representing our spirit while Eve represents our soul. It is when the spirit rules the soul that all is well but when the soul rules there is carnality. I find this spiritual take very fitting with all of Scripture like when Paul talks of the husband and wife and so forth.
cp
--- End quote ---
Hi claypot, here is what I found with what Ray has said about what Adam and Eve spiritually represent. In a nutshell, Adam spiritually represents Jesus, and Eve spiritually represents the church.
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html
Now can you see any spiritual connection in all this? How God is longing for a compliment, a counterpart, someone to compliment someone. It says a counterpart in the Greek, a compliment, or a help meet. A counter part for Adam that was not found, now he has a compliment, a counterpart to him, to make him complete.
That’s what God is longing for. Where is it going to come from? Out of Him. He has one Son, Jesus Christ, we are sons in the making. So where did Christ come from?
In the Hebrew the word is no. 6763 - tsela, and it can be translated ‘rib,’ and door, side and chamber. In Ezekiel 10 times this same word translated rib is translated chamber. A chamber-maid is usually some one who tends to the house, but specially the bedroom. If you look up chamber, the definition is a private room. The bedroom is your most private room. Our sexual anatomy is called our private parts. Can you put it together? This is not a rib. He took the femininity from him and made a woman. First He put it in the man, and then He took it from the man and made a woman out of it.
Now an interesting thing. It says in Tim. 2:14, that when Eve took the forbidden fruit she was deceived, the serpent had deceived her. But Adam was not deceived. Well if she was deceived, and she ate the fruit. Why did Adam eat it? He wasn’t deceived, so why did he eat it? Why didn’t he say you dumb female, you stupid wife of mine. How could you do such a dumb thing. No, no he did not. She gave him some and he ate it too.
Why would he do that? He knew. Because God told him first, and He told him specifically. And we know Eve knew because she said to the serpent, “God has said.” But first He said it to Adam before he created Eve. You can eat of every tree but of this tree you can not and the day you eat there of you will DIE. (Gen. 2:16-17)
In the Hebrew, ‘to die you shall be dying.” You will begin to die, you will be mortal and just die. You will be mortal and come to old age and die. So he knew that, he knew that when Eve ate it she was going to die. He longed for that woman so long and now she is going to die. He loved her so much, he said if she is going to die, I’m going to die with her, and he ate the fruit. He knew full well he would die, and he said I’m going with her. I’m not going to let her go alone, you see. So he was willing to die for that woman.
You see any spiritual connections?
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it [He died],
v. 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,
v. 27 that He might present it to Himself as the glorious church, without spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.
v. 28 So men ought to love their wives as their own bodies.
The first woman came from the body of man.
v. 28 “He who loves his wife loves himself.
v. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord loves the church.
v. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.”
Adam said to the woman, she is flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone, she came out of me.
So we are members of His body, flesh of his flesh and it says;
Gen 2:24 For this cause, will a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave unto his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
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To getter an even better understanding, please read the entire paper.
Hope this helps :)
Peace, G.Driggs
Deborah-Leigh:
Whatever "O man" is. That’s what we are, because "O man" is Adam. "O man" came out of Adam. Where did you come from, some place else? We’re all out of Adam. And what does Adam do? "Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters" and on and on. Wow, this is "O man" out of Adam. L Ray Smith Ref : Repentance
Arc
claypot:
--- Quote from: Arcturus on March 23, 2010, 03:38:46 AM ---
I do not see the premise you are working with.
--- End quote ---
You will especially if you ask God to show you.
I see as Adam representing our spirit while Eve represents our soul.
--- Quote from: Arcturus on March 23, 2010, 03:38:46 AM ---
Ahah, finally! There is the premise! Okay, lets look at this through the BT spectrum.
Number one, where is your Scripture that supports this premise that Adam is OUR Spirit and Eve is our soul? This would be necessary to find as is stated in the 12 Godly ways to understanding Gods word. Find two witnesses to uncover, discern and evaluate or test doctrine.
I can think of just one Scripture that throws your whole premise overboard. Jesus is the LAST Adam but this is not about what I believe, it is about looking at what you believe. So there you go. Your foundation at first glance, does not appear to be Scriptural. Seductive? Yes. Very enticing. Yes. Spit it out. RUN! Have you ever smelt the first sweet smell of a anesthetic? Stay alert. :)
--- End quote ---
If you do not see what I am saying is spread out through all of Scripture then I can’t make you see it but God can and if what I see is true, He will.
It is when the spirit rules the soul that all is well but when the soul rules there is carnality.
--- Quote from: Arcturus on March 23, 2010, 03:38:46 AM ---
This comes straight out of Babylon. This is a teaching that is in Theology one. Heresy is universal to Babylon and blasphemy they have in common.
--- End quote ---
I am applying this train of thought to Adam and Eve representing spirit and soul. It was only when Eve (soul) took things into her hands that the fruit was eaten and this was no mistake of God’s, it was, as Ray teaches too, a perfectly executed plan on His part. Where was Adam when all this took place between Eve and the serpent?
when the spirit rules the soul
--- Quote from: Arcturus on March 23, 2010, 03:38:46 AM ---
Where is the Scripture to support this theory of manmade doctrines of demons? Don’t be offended cp. This relates entirely to the Doctrines of Babylon of which you are called to “come out.”
--- End quote ---
Be careful Arc, what you call manmade doctrines of demons.
when the spirit rules the soul that all is well but when the soul rules there is carnality.
--- Quote from: Arcturus on March 23, 2010, 03:38:46 AM ---
When the spirit RULES the soul but when the soul RULES…..wha wha…wha WHAT. When ever does the soul RULE? Oh! As in when the soul thwarts the perfect Plan and Purpose of God? No. Not then. When the soul manifests its desires contrary to the Spirit? Is that when the soul RULES? No. There is no contest cp. The soul manifests the weakness of the heart in the lusts of the flesh that cannot and does not walk according to the Spirit. A soul cannot rule anything.
--- End quote ---
We are soulish creatures in the beginning. I believe Ray confirms this in his teachings. As such we do not fare very well yet when the Divine (Jesus) is sent into (our) world, all is put in order again.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
--- Quote from: Arcturus on March 23, 2010, 03:38:46 AM ---
You may, or someone else may think I am being high handed with you cp but I am simply applying tools given to us all to USE in the paper we have titled TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD L Ray Smith
--- End quote ---
I absolutely loved the paper you speak of and I will read again and probably again and again and I have sent it to friends so I know of what you speak and I agree with abiding by it.
I find this spiritual take very fitting with all of Scripture like when Paul talks of the husband and wife and so forth.
--- Quote from: Arcturus on March 23, 2010, 03:38:46 AM ---
All I did with your first comment was to apply the test of The 12 Truths! This shows up what is true and what is false. I don’t want to humiliate you. I would prefer you use your God given intelligence to tear down the idols of error and blasphemy and try to see them for yourself. Gently of course! :)
You say you like the heat of debate. This is a far more beneficial practice don’t you think? Apply the truth to see the lies using the tools of discernment.
May you never be the same again. :)
--- End quote ---
I do not feel humiliated in the least, just charged up and raring to go and I thank God that He is using you to give me life. I know I will never be the same again, I knew that the minute I started reading Ray’s writings and writings in accordance with his and this reading of Ray’s writings started some 2 or 3 years ago. Something strong just took hold not too long ago and that’s why I’m here.
Here’s an additional comment I started to write……………..
Hi Arc. I am not offended in the least and I thank you for taking time with me. My spirit roars, my soul soars, my flesh needs to type on this confounded thing we call a computer but these are all good things as I believe the Spirit has all in control in this household.
I can give you Scripture after Scripture to ‘prove’ my point but if your filter or foundation is other than mine then every Scripture I give you will be met with a rejection. If I am correct in any way it will take God Himself to show you and where I am wrong I will need God to show me and I know we both will rest comfortably in that. Now saying all that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t share and share abundantly what we have or even what we think we have from God so I will continue for you all are very gracious and human and divine and I feel good here!
cp
Deborah-Leigh:
I can feel your enthusiasm cp. There is nothing wrong with that. It is invigorating and wonderful to be able to be civil in exchange of contentious issues.
You see Adam as representing our spirit? Now which Adam would that be? The first Adam or the Last?
--- Quote ---If you do not see what I am saying is spread out through all of Scripture then I can’t make you see it but God can and if what I see is true, He will.
--- End quote ---
Oh but I did see what you are saying. You just do not believe what I see. You want me to see what you see and you do not want to see what I see.
What you say is represented throughout all the scriptures is that Adam represents our spirit and Eve our soul. I do not see it cp. Sorry. There is a first Adam and a LAST Adam. The first Adam is NOT Christ and the Last Adam is the quickening Spirit of Christ.
The first Adam is Oh man, the carnal as repeated in the Repentance study by Ray Smith.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
You see that Eve represents our soul. With the paper excerpt presented by G Driggs, let us see if this fits with what you are expressing.
Can you put it together? This is not a rib. He took the femininity from him and made a woman. First He put it in the man, and then He took it from the man and made a woman out of it. Quote from L Ray Smith
Okay so now lets see. Adam, the soulish man of carnality, is put to sleep and his soul is removed? Sorry. No can do. That just doesn’t have any substance or support in the Word of God. You have to say God took part of the soul of Adam and put it into Eve. So half a soul plus another half a soul makes a soul mate right? They are one when they are conjugally united.
Okay, lets see what happens next.
Back to Adam and Eve. Adam, the quickening spirit, unites with Eve the soul and enter Gods Spirit dividing the spirit and the soul and then you have a manifest child of God living on the Earth in a carnal body, with an impure mind and housing an immortal God. Right?
There is something very wrong with that conclusion cp. It is a nice and exciting thought but one that is not endorsed by the Word of God yet. Not now, not today. Judgment is still on the House of God - for me anyway. If you are saying that judgment is concluded for you and that you are now sinless, perfected and in the image of God, manifested as a Son of God, then cp, good for you. Each to their own. I am still in the Word of God, yet to be revealed and resurrected either to life or WT judgment.
You profess that God will show me what you are seeing if it is true. It is true alright. God has not yet brought in the WTJ. There is still no one in the flesh who is the manifestation of a Son or Daughter of God. God’s work is not yet done. The world still groans for the manifestation of the Sons and Daughters of God.
Are you saying you are not of the world and so you don’t groan. Are you exempt from the Grace of God working in the Sons and Daughters of His Kingdom. Who has bewitched you cp?
You say God will show me if what you see is true. You are truly seeing a lie, a deception cp. Only God’s Spirit can expose deceptions and lies and by inference you are saying that it is not God who is revealing to me the errors of your assumptions. Of what do you accuse me cp?
--- Quote ---Where was Adam when all this took place between Eve and the serpent?
--- End quote ---
You infer that Adam the spirit, was absent to Eve the soul and body element of Adam. That is not scriptural cp. That goes against what Ray has expounded here in BT. The soul and spirit and body are ONE> A body without a spirit is DEAD.
Your analogy has a seemingly endless path of twists and turns into assumptions, imaginations and doctrines of demons that don’t go nowhere but lead straight into heresy and blasphemy and can entice away by the lusts of a weak heart. You know. Wolves among the sheep.
You say I should be careful what I call manmade doctrines of demons. Cp the doctrine of Babylon and all the harlot daughters have espoused doctrines of demons and they worship the seat of Satan who appears to them as an Angel of light. God says the same thing I am saying to you so your caution is not to me, it is to God.
You say we are soulish creatures in the beginning. Twaddle cp. We are not soulish creatures without a spirit of God breathed into us to give us life. We are carnal natural creatures. To say we are soulish is to denigrate God and His Son who have feelings, sentiments and all the sentient emotions of our souls having first been the Ones to experience everything we are given in part to experience for ourselves.
You say when Jesus is sent into (our) world, all is put in order again.
Okay, so that means…..that means….what exactly?
I am glad you aren’t offended. Neither am I. :)
Just answer the last question, (with the permission of the Moderators,) and we can take it from there if the thread is not locked down for being an attempt at teaching which is what you are doing by the way cp. Not that I’ve learnt, agreed or approved of anything you have presented, except that there are many seductive teachings OUT THERE!
Arc
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