> General Discussions
"then cometh the end"
Joe in Arkansas:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on January 14, 2011, 01:08:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: Joe in Arkansas on January 13, 2011, 07:03:43 PM ---I truly believe that these prophecies are for "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" since the time that Christ said them. They were fulfilled within the 1st generation from Christ and are still reoccurring within the lives of all other persons in this age since that time.
--- End quote ---
Joe, take a look at this email reply from Ray, if you will:
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10367.msg88830.html#msg88830):
Dear Nicolette: Granted that verse does seem confusing until we take a much closer look at it. Notice
that Jesus said there would be many things happening before He would return: Signs in the sun and moon (Matt
24:29); the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (Ver. 30); angels gathering the elect at the
sound of the trumpet (Ver. 31); the parable of the fig tree (Ver. 32). Now then, WHAT generation would not
pass until our Lord Returns? The generation that Jesus was talking to in Matt. 24? NO. "THIS" generation--the
generation that would see,
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, WHEN YE shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors.
It would be the generation that would "see ALL these things" mentioned in the previous verses, THAT would be
the generation that will not pass until our Lord comes.
The word "this" in this verse is from the following words and notice how it can be translated:
G3778
οὗτος, οὗτοι, αὕτη, αὕται
houtos houtoi hautē hautai
hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee
Including the nominative masculine plural (second form), nominative feminine signular (third form), and the nominate feminine plural, (fourth form). From the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), that is, this or THAT (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.
I do not know Greek, but possibly Matt. 24:34 could be translation "THAT generation." Which generation? THAT one--the one which sees "ALL THESE THINGS," and no generation has get seen "all of these things" come to pass.
God be with you,
Ray
These signs have assuredly not all come to pass, particularly God's Elect being gathered at the sound of the trumpet. Paul talked about this trumpet being a call for the dead in Christ to awaken [1 Cor 15:52] and the Lord descending from the heavens [1 Thess 4:16]. Only the last generation will 'see these things'.
Further down in the same passage, Jesus tells us we are to watch because we do not know when He is coming:
Matt 24:42-44 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Marques
--- End quote ---
Dear Marques,
Thank you for your comments. In this particular instance, I have to say that I disagree with Ray. In fact, Ray's understanding of these prophecies in Matthew 24 seem to conflict with at least one of his teachings in the Lake of Fire series concerning the "man of sin". I believe he is absolutely correct with his teachings concerning the "man of sin" in the Lake of Fire series, but here in Matthew 24 he seems to change his understanding.
But before I explain, I want to say that Ray's understanding of scripture overall is mostly in agreement with what I believe is really being taught in Matthew 24. I have a high amount of respect and appreciation for Ray's teachings and believe that he is the best teacher of God's Word that I have ever known. In fact, he is responsible for most of what I have come to understand as Truth. I am most grateful to him.
With that said though, his understanding of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 seems to be limited to an "outward" understanding. I believe that those prophecies in Matthew 24 are primarily for His Elect to understand and I believe that they personally experience them from "within". Ray teaches this "within" understanding when he teaches on the "man of sin" in his Lake of Fire series Part 14 "The Beast Within". But here in Matthew 24 he seems to not connect these verses with his "man of sin" understanding from 2Thes 2:3:
Matt 24:15-22 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
2Thes 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
It is my belief that both the teachings in Matt 24: 15-22 and 2Thess 2:3-4 are speaking of essentially the same thing. The "abomination of desolation" that stands in the holy place is when we see the "man of sin" standing within God's temple. Remember, we are now the temple of God. Ray's teaching on the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is very good and should match his teaching on Matthew 24:15-22. But apparently in Matthew 24, he sees it as having an "outward" fulfillment instead of an "inward" and personal fulfillment as he teaches on the "man of sin" in the LOF series Part 14. If I am wrong on his teaching of Matthew 24:15-22, please correct me. Since Matt 24:15-22 is to be understood as personal & "within" ourselves (remember the kingdom of Heaven is within us) then the rest of Christ's teachings in this section should also be understood as "within". Doesn't that make sense?
In Matthew 24:15-22, I believe it is spiritually saying that when we see our "man of sin" standing in God's temple, we are to flee out of the Harlot church into the mountains because it's destruction is near. It goes to great lengths to let us know to leave immediately because the time for it's destruction is short. In other words, we literally don't want to be caught "dead" in the Harlot church or to remain carnal as it has kept us. This fleeing into the mountains from the Harlot church is typed for us by Lot and his wife fleeing from Sodom and again in Rev 18:4 where it commands us to "come out of her my people". In both accounts, the city is shortly destroyed. For us spiritually, it is destroyed when we can see the Harlot for who she is and for what she has made us become ( a "man of sin" standing in the Holy Place). God's Elect are commanded to come out of her completely with no looking back (like Lot's wife did). We must keep pressing forward to the goal of the high calling of Jesus Christ. In essence it is saying that we must keep maturing spiritually and must not turn back to our carnality (we prefer the Old Wine). The Elect's days are shortened in the Harlot church (wilderness or bottomless pit), otherwise the Elect too would remain deceived & carnal and would physically die in her. This again is typed for us by the nation of Israel who wandered in the desert for forty years. Only Joshua and Caleb "escape" the wilderness. God's Elect will "escape" the Harlot church and will see the "man of sin" that they have become while in her. The Elect flee to the mountains once they see earthly Jerusalem for the Harlot she is. But in Matt 24, it says woe to them who are with child and to them that give suck in those days. Why? Because they are the ones who are still carnal & blind and cannot see that they need to come out of her before her destruction. They only have until their physical deaths to come out (the time is short). After that time, the resurrection of the unjust will be what they experience next. But for the Elect's sake, Christ's comes to them a second time and heals their spiritual blindness so that they can see to come out of the Harlot. Mercifully, their days are shortened in the Harlot, otherwise they too would not survive (escape).
Since the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-22 is personally for each of us and takes place "within" us, then it makes sense that all of Matthew 24 is personal and "within" us also. It may be true that there is also an "outward" fulfillment of these events that will be seen in the world but for the Elect, those events are for them to personally experience during their lifetimes. If they are truly one of the chosen, then they will escape them and stand before the Son of God. The time is at hand for all men from the time of Christ and not for some appointed time in the future that is still not here after nearly 2000 years.
I know Ray's understanding of the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is personal and "within". Why he doesn't connect Matt 24:15-22 as being related to it, I don't know.
Anyway, that is what I am seeing with Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. If I have misstated Ray's position on this chapter, I am sorry and it was done in ignorance.
Joe in Arkansas (Jody Edwards)
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Joe in Arkansas on January 14, 2011, 03:59:11 PM ---With that said though, his understanding of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 seems to be limited to an "outward" understanding. I believe that those prophecies in Matthew 24 are primarily for His Elect to understand and I believe that they personally experience them from "within". Ray teaches this "within" understanding when he teaches on the "man of sin" in his Lake of Fire series Part 14 "The Beast Within". But here in Matthew 24 he seems to not connect these verses with his "man of sin" understanding from 2Thes 2:3:
--- End quote ---
In the email reply, Ray does not say anything about 'outward' and 'inward' or literally and figuratively. Ray quotes the scriptures and CHRIST says 'that generation' that sees ALL these things. 'All these things' make up the entire passage of Matthew 24.
'MANY come in my name to deceive many' (v5), 'they will deliver you to tribulation and you will be hated of ALL MEN' (v9), 'False Christs arising to deceive if possible the Elect' (v24), 'great sound of a trumpet and God's Elect being gathered' (v31), etc. are not figurative things that happen 'inward' in each individual. The man of sin 'within' is only one aspect of the prophecy that Christ gives.
The apostles only asked one thing: "what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (v3). Christ then explains, in parables, the end of the age ('then the end will come' [v14]). But Christ does not stop the prophecy at verse 14. He further elaborates beginning at verse 15:
Matt 24:15 Therefore (then, accordingly, consequently, etc.) when you see...
He gives further signs and symbols that 'consequently' will bring forth the end of the age.
--- Quote from: Joe in Arkansas on January 14, 2011, 03:59:11 PM ---Matt 24:15-22 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
2Thes 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
It is my belief that both the teachings in Matt 24: 15-22 and 2Thess 2:3-4 are speaking of essentially the same thing. The "abomination of desolation" that stands in the holy place is when we see the "man of sin" standing within God's temple. Remember, we are now the temple of God. Ray's teaching on the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is very good and should match his teaching on Matthew 24:15-22. But apparently in Matthew 24, he sees it as having an "outward" fulfillment instead of an "inward" and personal fulfillment as he teaches on the "man of sin" in the LOF series Part 14. If I am wrong on his teaching of Matthew 24:15-22, please correct me. Since Matt 24:15-22 is to be understood as personal & "within" ourselves (remember the kingdom of Heaven is within us) then the rest of Christ's teachings in this section should also be understood as "within". Doesn't that make sense?
--- End quote ---
Again, Matt 24 was not a response to the Kingdom of Heaven, but what is the end of the age/Coming of our Lord. Jesus did not begin and end His prophecy between verses 15-22. There are a lot of prophecies in this chapter that are not fulfilled 'within'. A few are posted above.
--- Quote from: Joe in Arkansas on January 14, 2011, 03:59:11 PM ---In Matthew 24:15-22, I believe it is spiritually saying that when we see our "man of sin" standing in God's temple, we are to flee out of the Harlot church into the mountains because it's destruction is near. It goes to great lengths to let us know to leave immediately because the time for it's destruction is short. In other words, we literally don't want to be caught "dead" in the Harlot church or to remain carnal as it has kept us. This fleeing into the mountains from the Harlot church is typed for us by Lot and his wife fleeing from Sodom and again in Rev 18:4 where it commands us to "come out of her my people". In both accounts, the city is shortly destroyed. For us spiritually, it is destroyed when we can see the Harlot for who she is and for what she has made us become ( a "man of sin" standing in the Holy Place). God's Elect are commanded to come out of her completely with no looking back (like Lot's wife did). We must keep pressing forward to the goal of the high calling of Jesus Christ. In essence it is saying that we must keep maturing spiritually and must not turn back to our carnality (we prefer the Old Wine). The Elect's days are shortened in the Harlot church (wilderness or bottomless pit), otherwise the Elect too would remain deceived & carnal and would physically die in her. This again is typed for us by the nation of Israel who wandered in the desert for forty years. Only Joshua and Caleb "escape" the wilderness. God's Elect will "escape" the Harlot church and will see the "man of sin" that they have become while in her. The Elect flee to the mountains once they see earthly Jerusalem for the Harlot she is. But in Matt 24, it says woe to them who are with child and to them that give suck in those days. Why? Because they are the ones who are still carnal & blind and cannot see that they need to come out of her before her destruction. They only have until their physical deaths to come out (the time is short). After that time, the resurrection of the unjust will be what they experience next. But for the Elect's sake, Christ's comes to them a second time and heals their spiritual blindness so that they can see to come out of the Harlot. Mercifully, their days are shortened in the Harlot, otherwise they too would not survive (escape).
--- End quote ---
I know you are new to the forum Joe, but let's shy away from personal interpretation of prophecy. It always leads debate within our no teaching rule. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just let's keep these types of statements off the forum. Hope no offense is taken.
--- Quote from: Joe in Arkansas on January 14, 2011, 03:59:11 PM ---Since the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-22 is personally for each of us and takes place "within" us, then it makes sense that all of Matthew 24 is personal and "within" us also. It may be true that there is also an "outward" fulfillment of these events that will be seen in the world but for the Elect, those events are for them to personally experience during their lifetimes. If they are truly one of the chosen, then they will escape them and stand before the Son of God.
The time is at hand for all men from the time of Christ and not for some appointed time in the future that is still not here after nearly 2000 years.
I know Ray's understanding of the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is personal and "within". Why he doesn't connect Matt 24:15-22 as being related to it, I don't know.
Anyway, that is what I am seeing with Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. If I have misstated Ray's position on this chapter, I am sorry and it was done in ignorance.
--- End quote ---
No, it doesn't make sense but is an assumption that many make. I can tell you feel very strongly about your interpretation of Matt 24:15-22, but that passage is only one aspect of a very long prophecy that the Lord gives of the end of the age/His Return.
As I said before, Christ tells us to 'watch and pray' because we do not know the hour of His return, not because all these signs are fulfilled in each of His Elect. The Elect CAN'T fulfill all of these signs in Matt 24 'inwardly' or even outwardly, literally or even figuratively.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Joe in Arkansas:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on January 14, 2011, 07:50:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: Joe in Arkansas on January 14, 2011, 03:59:11 PM ---With that said though, his understanding of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 seems to be limited to an "outward" understanding. I believe that those prophecies in Matthew 24 are primarily for His Elect to understand and I believe that they personally experience them from "within". Ray teaches this "within" understanding when he teaches on the "man of sin" in his Lake of Fire series Part 14 "The Beast Within". But here in Matthew 24 he seems to not connect these verses with his "man of sin" understanding from 2Thes 2:3:
--- End quote ---
In the email reply, Ray does not say anything about 'outward' and 'inward' or literally and figuratively. Ray quotes the scriptures and CHRIST says 'that generation' that sees ALL these things. 'All these things' make up the entire passage of Matthew 24.
'MANY come in my name to deceive many' (v5), 'they will deliver you to tribulation and you will be hated of ALL MEN' (v9), 'False Christs arising to deceive if possible the Elect' (v24), 'great sound of a trumpet and God's Elect being gathered' (v31), etc. are not figurative things that happen 'inward' in each individual. The man of sin 'within' is only one aspect of the prophecy that Christ gives.
Dear Marques
The apostles only asked one thing: "what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (v3). Christ then explains, in parables, the end of the age ('then the end will come' [v14]). But Christ does not stop the prophecy at verse 14. He further elaborates beginning at verse 15:
Matt 24:15 Therefore (then, accordingly, consequently, etc.) when you see...
He gives further signs and symbols that 'consequently' will bring forth the end of the age.
--- Quote from: Joe in Arkansas on January 14, 2011, 03:59:11 PM ---Matt 24:15-22 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
2Thes 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
It is my belief that both the teachings in Matt 24: 15-22 and 2Thess 2:3-4 are speaking of essentially the same thing. The "abomination of desolation" that stands in the holy place is when we see the "man of sin" standing within God's temple. Remember, we are now the temple of God. Ray's teaching on the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is very good and should match his teaching on Matthew 24:15-22. But apparently in Matthew 24, he sees it as having an "outward" fulfillment instead of an "inward" and personal fulfillment as he teaches on the "man of sin" in the LOF series Part 14. If I am wrong on his teaching of Matthew 24:15-22, please correct me. Since Matt 24:15-22 is to be understood as personal & "within" ourselves (remember the kingdom of Heaven is within us) then the rest of Christ's teachings in this section should also be understood as "within". Doesn't that make sense?
--- End quote ---
Again, Matt 24 was not a response to the Kingdom of Heaven, but what is the end of the age/Coming of our Lord. Jesus did not begin and end His prophecy between verses 15-22. There are a lot of prophecies in this chapter that are not fulfilled 'within'. A few are posted above.
--- Quote from: Joe in Arkansas on January 14, 2011, 03:59:11 PM ---In Matthew 24:15-22, I believe it is spiritually saying that when we see our "man of sin" standing in God's temple, we are to flee out of the Harlot church into the mountains because it's destruction is near. It goes to great lengths to let us know to leave immediately because the time for it's destruction is short. In other words, we literally don't want to be caught "dead" in the Harlot church or to remain carnal as it has kept us. This fleeing into the mountains from the Harlot church is typed for us by Lot and his wife fleeing from Sodom and again in Rev 18:4 where it commands us to "come out of her my people". In both accounts, the city is shortly destroyed. For us spiritually, it is destroyed when we can see the Harlot for who she is and for what she has made us become ( a "man of sin" standing in the Holy Place). God's Elect are commanded to come out of her completely with no looking back (like Lot's wife did). We must keep pressing forward to the goal of the high calling of Jesus Christ. In essence it is saying that we must keep maturing spiritually and must not turn back to our carnality (we prefer the Old Wine). The Elect's days are shortened in the Harlot church (wilderness or bottomless pit), otherwise the Elect too would remain deceived & carnal and would physically die in her. This again is typed for us by the nation of Israel who wandered in the desert for forty years. Only Joshua and Caleb "escape" the wilderness. God's Elect will "escape" the Harlot church and will see the "man of sin" that they have become while in her. The Elect flee to the mountains once they see earthly Jerusalem for the Harlot she is. But in Matt 24, it says woe to them who are with child and to them that give suck in those days. Why? Because they are the ones who are still carnal & blind and cannot see that they need to come out of her before her destruction. They only have until their physical deaths to come out (the time is short). After that time, the resurrection of the unjust will be what they experience next. But for the Elect's sake, Christ's comes to them a second time and heals their spiritual blindness so that they can see to come out of the Harlot. Mercifully, their days are shortened in the Harlot, otherwise they too would not survive (escape).
--- End quote ---
I know you are new to the forum Joe, but let's shy away from personal interpretation of prophecy. It always leads debate within our no teaching rule. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just let's keep these types of statements off the forum. Hope no offense is taken.
--- Quote from: Joe in Arkansas on January 14, 2011, 03:59:11 PM ---Since the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-22 is personally for each of us and takes place "within" us, then it makes sense that all of Matthew 24 is personal and "within" us also. It may be true that there is also an "outward" fulfillment of these events that will be seen in the world but for the Elect, those events are for them to personally experience during their lifetimes. If they are truly one of the chosen, then they will escape them and stand before the Son of God.
The time is at hand for all men from the time of Christ and not for some appointed time in the future that is still not here after nearly 2000 years.
I know Ray's understanding of the "man of sin" in 2Thes 2:3-4 is personal and "within". Why he doesn't connect Matt 24:15-22 as being related to it, I don't know.
Anyway, that is what I am seeing with Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. If I have misstated Ray's position on this chapter, I am sorry and it was done in ignorance.
--- End quote ---
No, it doesn't make sense but is an assumption that many make. I can tell you feel very strongly about your interpretation of Matt 24:15-22, but that passage is only one aspect of a very long prophecy that the Lord gives of the end of the age/His Return.
As I said before, Christ tells us to 'watch and pray' because we do not know the hour of His return, not because all these signs are fulfilled in each of His Elect. The Elect CAN'T even fulfill all of these signs in Matt 24 'inwardly' or even outwardly, literally or even figuratively.
Hope this helps,
Marques
--- End quote ---
Dear Marques,
Thank you for your comments. I understand what you are saying but I cannot agree that the end of the age is solely for the last generation before Christ's visible return. I believe that all the prophecies of Matt 24 can and should be understood as personal and within. Scripture says that for the "Elect", the ends of the ages come to us in our lifetimes, from those who lived in the 1st century, all the way to the Elect living today.
1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
In the future, I will not post if what I am posting is in disagreement with Ray's teaching. This was one of those rare cases where Ray and I disagree. However, I thought it to be appropriate to bring it up since it was the subject of this thread - "then cometh the end" and when that occurs.
Sincerely,
Joe in Arkansas
cjwood:
jody/joe in arkansas, i believe you should send an email to ray regarding your strong feeling on this one. ray has always encouraged anyone to spot what they believe are inconsistencies, or contradictions, etc. that he has written. he only asks that the person offer at least 2 scriptures to back up what they believe. this would be a help to you, and also to the forum, if you feel led to share any response from ray with us.
in Christ,
claudia
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Joe in Arkansas,
It is good to meet you!
Rays teachings, I believe, prepare the way for the unveiling of Christ, not as a physical man of mortal flesh and blood, but within us, for the Kingdom of God is within and among us.
A pure heart cannot, does not, believe in hell, free will, tithe or minority salvation.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
The Kingdom doesn’t come with outward signs.
Ray also teaches that the burning of the trees has to happen within us, that was symbolized in Revelations as recorded by John who saw Christ within himself, not as an outward Armageddon physically happening on the Island of Patmos! :D
We know these things to be spiritual. There is no arguement. Seek and you shall find and seek first the Kingdom of God. :)
Blessings
Arc
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