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Ray's response about Enoch
Kat:
Hi Denise,
--- Quote ---esword says it mainly means sky, God's abode, and air. and what's interesting is that they used the same greek word ouranos because it is also the name of the greek God of the sky.
--- End quote ---
Heaven can mean sky, air or God's abode, it depends on the context of what is being spoken of. But the kingdom of heaven/God where He has His abode is not a place off some where, it is not a location.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
When Jesus stated "no one has ascended up to heaven" (John 3:13), that was true because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1Co 15:50). I believe the Enoch was still flesh and blood when he was taken up.
Here are a few places where Ray mentions this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4138.0.html -----------
The "Kingdom of God" also known as the "Kingdom of the heavenS," is God's domain, where He resides. To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom. At present we are merely begotten, awaiting a new birth into His Kingdom. This Kingdom has no end after the physical has passed away. Etc.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html -------------------------------------
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen. 1;1).
We all know what the earth is. The heavens, however, is a different matter. The physical heaven is where we find the moon, sun, and stars. But God’s domain is a spiritual heaven.
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world [Gk: ‘age’], against spiritual [Gk: ‘spiritual powers of, or spiritual hosts of, or spiritual forces of’] wickedness in high places [Gk: ‘heavenly places’]” (Eph. 6:12).
So God created the plural “heavens” “in the beginning.” And Paul tells us that there are “principalities and powers” in these “heavenly places” or “celestials” as it is in the Greek. And that these “principalities and powers” are powers, hosts, or forces that are “wicked!”
“For by Him [Jesus] were all things created that are in the heaven [Gk: ‘heavens”—it is plural in the Greek as it is in the Hebrew], and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers ALL things were created by Him, and for Him” (Col. 1:16).
“Principalities and powers” are part of the “all” which Jesus created “in the beginning,” at the beginning of creation. And these “principalities and powers” are “wicked” forces, which we wrestle against. These powers are under authority.
v
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No, Jesus does not live far far away on the other side of the universe in a place called heaven. Heaven is not a place; heaven is the realm of spirit. Jesus does not sleep in heaven. Jesus does not live in a physical heaven. Jesus will not live in a physical body full of holes, for the rest of eternity either. It is impossible to even think about these important issues of life with the mentality of Christian doctrines. Jesus Christ is “spirit”: “Now the Lord is that SPIRIT…” (II Cor. 3:17).
http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#babel ----------------------
Nimrod did not think that he could really build a tower that would go to heaven, but rather to reach into the heavens as a tall tree or mountain.
Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock.
God's heaven is a higher spiritual realm of life and existence, not a geographical location in outer space.
Hope that helps a little.
Ray
daywalker:
Hebrews 9:27... Ezekiel 18:4,20... Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
We may never know exactly what happened to Enoch, but either (1) he eventually died or (2) all these above verses are lies which would therefore mean the bible is not God's Word and we are all wasting our time here, and in the words of Isaiah:
"Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." Isaiah 22:13
or something...
Daywalker 8)
dave:
This may not be relevent to anything, but I feel led to speak it here. Many years ago, I believed that the Lord showed me in at a time when I was just sitting there with my eyes closed, pondering on Him and all that He had made, this world and all thats in it. I was just awaken to the understanding (no God did not speak to me, God just let me know.... No, no angels) that all the things that have happened, are happening, will happen, are just happening in the gleam or twinkle in His eye.
Should He have the desire to bring me, or anything or anyone to an end, all He had to do was blink......and all, everything that we know as real, would just not be. Everything we have known, know, or will know is not, because He just stopped it.
I have always found that comforting.
Revilonivek:
--- Quote from: micah7:9 on April 27, 2011, 07:13:29 PM ---This may not be relevent to anything, but I feel led to speak it here. Many years ago, I believed that the Lord showed me in at a time when I was just sitting there with my eyes closed, pondering on Him and all that He had made, this world and all thats in it. I was just awaken to the understanding (no God did not speak to me, God just let me know.... No, no angels) that all the things that have happened, are happening, will happen, are just happening in the gleam or twinkle in His eye.
Should He have the desire to bring me, or anything or anyone to an end, all He had to do was blink......and all, everything that we know as real, would just not be. Everything we have known, know, or will know is not, because He just stopped it.
I have always found that comforting.
--- End quote ---
Hey-
Yes, everything that we gain knowledge of, it’s under God's control. God’s 7 spirits is love, knowledge, wisdom, strength, fear, etc. Of course, even with our human imperfection, in particular, our spiritual imperfectness, emotional imperfectness and mental imperfectness. In summary, our mental, spirit and body imperfection, God will fix this and we will know the real truth when all of this is over. Even God said that once everything is set right and everything under God, God will cause us to forget what hell we went through. You are absolutely correct. God is sovereign in everything, through everything and through it all.
God bless you Micah 7:9 for reminding us all. :)
Revilonivek:
--- Quote from: daywalker on April 27, 2011, 06:31:01 PM ---
Hebrews 9:27... Ezekiel 18:4,20... Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
We may never know exactly what happened to Enoch, but either (1) he eventually died or (2) all these above verses are lies which would therefore mean the bible is not God's Word and we are all wasting our time here, and in the words of Isaiah:
"Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." Isaiah 22:13
or something...
Daywalker 8)
--- End quote ---
Daywalker-
Yes you are right- The verses did not SAY that Enoch went to heaven. It just plainly says he was NOT FOUND, for God TOOK HIM. Just didn't say where God took him to.
So maybe God just took him somewhere else so he can protect Enoch's pure heart. That scripture seems almost incomplete but it is what it says...I suppose. It was nagging at me because it said, God translated Enoch so he will not see death. Maybe they meant to say, as we are spiritually dead and through Jesus, we are made alive.
so maybe Enoch was already pure of heart, and God wanted to protect his purity so HE took Enoch away from his family and friends and life, so it stays pure and not experience spiritual death?
just a thought?
what do you think?
Denise
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