> General Discussions
What exactly is heaven?
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Kat on May 19, 2011, 04:01:17 PM ---So the Elect will be perfect, because they are one - totally and completely united with the source of perfection?
unit•ed adj 1 : made one : combined 2 : relating to or produced by joint action 3 : being in agreement : harmonious
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I don't think unity, in and of itself, makes one perfect. We can keep the unity of the spirit now as Paul notes [Eph 4:1-3], but later in the same passage, Paul notes there are sins we still need to overcome [Eph 4:30-31].
--- Quote from: Kat on May 19, 2011, 04:01:17 PM ---1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part:
v. 10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
v. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
v. 12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I have been known.
The Elect will only be brought completely into His image at resurrection, then they will "always" do His will just like Jesus Christ always does His will. I don't see what we need to learn when we are directly united/one with God. Won't He tell/inspire us to say and do everything just like He did Jesus Christ? I don't mean take away our personality, we shall all retain our own individuality, but we will be perfectly in tune with God and serve Him perfectly, right?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I used to completely agree with your comments in bold...you and I have even discussed somewhat in times past. But ever since the 2008 conference, Ray has been showing from the scripture the awesome character of God...starting to really dwell on Who is God and how He is. Not just His awesome power, but also His awesome wisdom, love, patience, long suffering, etc. Attributes that I never looked at in their proper perspective...even now it is a struggle. It's because of how great and wonderful He is, that I think it is not something we as humans will achieve in an instant.
Also, for what it's worth, the church also believes that one would 'instantly' be turned into a perfect saint at their 'Rapture' or whenever they believe God gathers His people. When I was in church, I never heard sermons on God's character...I don't think they had the proper perspective. And as I said before, for me personally, I feel that I am only beginning to gain some insight into this lofty subject. The church always taught this 'in a moment then BAM!' all believers saved and perfected in an instant....and I don't think it is true, just as I don't think any of their doctrines are true.
I'm not saying I have all the answers but I do know that The Father is greater in every way than we can imagine, as is His Son Jesus. And I don't see us being 'perfect' as them in an instant. I just feel it takes time and I embrace that, it's not a loss if it's something one has never had. I can't think of one thing that God has blessed me with that happened in an instant...can you?
Marques
JohnMichael:
--- Quote ---I used to completely agree with your comments in bold...you and I have even discussed somewhat in times past. But ever since the 2008 conference, Ray has been showing from the scripture the awesome character of God...starting to really dwell on Who is God and how He is. Not just His awesome power, but also His awesome wisdom, love, patience, long suffering, etc. Attributes that I never looked at in their proper perspective...even now it is a struggle. It's because of how great and wonderful He is, that I think it is not something we as humans will achieve in an instant.
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That's why they're Elohim, and we're not. It's almost demeaning to God for one to claim He can't do something. Why would God have His Elect suffer great affliction and suffering and tribulation and trials and heartache NOW only to put them through it AGAIN at the first resurrection? According to the scripture, that's the ONLY way one achieves perfection, so you're essentially saying it will continue after the resurrection. If one is going to have to go through it again after being resurrected and after going through it already in life, what's the point of the first time? Why not just wait until resurrection time? It doesn't make sense the further one goes with it.
It's just my personal opinion, but one may have lost sight of the forest for the sake of the trees. I mean no offense in that though :)
Christ is our example. He overcame the world, and He was granted perfection and glory in His resurrection. Would one be so bold as to demean Christ that He had to continue going through suffering after He was resurrected?
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Marky Mark on May 19, 2011, 07:01:33 PM ---Marques my friend, do you have chapter and verse that align with what you speak of? To assume something that is not spoken of in Scripture is treading on slippery ground. Gods Word is the only basis in which we should believe,not ones own wisdom.
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There are plenty of scriptures that speak of reaping and sowing Mark, with even Christ referring to us branches and/or seed bringing forth fruit [John 15]. Anyone who has maintained a garden or what not knows that it takes time for the garden to bloom. We are God's garden...I just am not assuming that the end of this age means we will be in full bloom (perfection), that's all.
--- Quote from: Marky Mark on May 19, 2011, 07:01:33 PM ---If the house of God is being judged now,[because we are not yet perfect],does this also mean that we will have to be judged and overcome sin again, after the first resurrection?
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--- Quote from: JohnMichael on May 19, 2011, 07:24:58 PM ---Why would God have His Elect suffer great affliction and suffering and tribulation and trials and heartache NOW only to put them through it AGAIN at the first resurrection?
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I really can't say it any other way. I don't know why you two assume that I believe we will have to be put through everything "AGAIN". I can't comment on every false assumption one makes from my comments, nor do I want to.
So I think it will take longer to achieve perfection, so what? If it doesn't, I'll be pleasantly surprised. :D If you don't agree, good for you because it's not worth being contentious about.
I actually believe this forum proves this point...all knowledge and understanding, but still lacking in spiritual fruit. We see it all the time and it never changes, no matter how many times a member points it out. Being perfect in the image of God is more than believing all will be saved and God is sovereign. And it's no point in me continuing because it's only revealed in time and even I'm still learning. Hope you understand
Marques
JohnMichael:
--- Quote ---So I think it will take longer to achieve perfection, so what? If it doesn't, I'll be pleasantly surprised. If you don't agree, good for you because it's not worth being contentious about.
--- End quote ---
It was not my intent to be "contentious" about what you stated. If I misunderstood regarding the "again" point, I apologize. I meant no offense.
Would the perfection be relative? I don't know if the creation will ever be equal to the Creator - short of an act of that Creator.
Reading back over my post, I can see how that may have come across as abrasive. I didn't mean for it to. Please forgive me.
:)
John
JohnMichael:
I wonder if once the flesh has been finally severed (death or Christ's return), then would the characteristics that God's Spirit has worked to instill and develop in us then need to be refined. Granted, some of that refining process takes place in this life. I remember reading that article, JFK, and he did say it would be a beginning.
My only thought would be how would a creature that still needs refining be able to help judge others? It would seem that only Perfection itself would be able to truly judge righteously and justly.
Was this more in line with what you were saying, Marques? Now that I'm fully awake, the ol' brain is working better. ;D
John
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