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In need of some clarification.
zander:
Some intersting points.
This is what im getting so far and theyre different:
a) That although i "know" of the basics truths, i am not deserving necessarily of "many stripes" as i am not purposefully committing acts of sin, "knowing" that everything will (eventually) be OK. I sin yes, but as i say, no more than the average human being if you like. The many stripes refers to (according to gmik) the Church or someone who knows the truths of God and goes right against them, like badly against them, worse than the average human being.
b) That i do "know" the basic truths of God and therefore it is my responsibility to want to be in the first resurrection (regardless of whether i end up there) and if i do not aspire to that, i will be part of the "many stripes" brigade.
As i say, im a normal guy, i do normal things. I have been given Gods understanding about something quite profound. However, as of yet, i have no real desire to want to be in the 1st resurection. Sorry, i cant help that.
Im still confused lol
Dave in Tenn:
One last comment for Zander (thanks, Gena).
When I think of stripes these days, I don't think of punishment--so many stripes for one bad behaviour, so many for another. More for worse, less for not so bad. This may disappoint Antaiwan :D , but to my mind, the 'beast rising out of the sea' that is me is not some grotesque monster out of babylonian fantasy, but just a simple beast of burden--just a donkey carrying a load. How do you get a donkey to move, and to move in the right direction? You smack it. "A rod for the back of fools".
Pro 19:25 You smite a mocker, and a simple man shall become prudent; Reprove one of understanding, and he shall understand more knowledge."
Pro 19:28 A worthless witness mocks at judgment, And the mouth of the wicked swallows down lawlessness."
Pro 19:29 Judgments are prepared for mockers And beatings for the body of the stupid.
We're going to get spiritually beaten until we're no longer stupid. These truths you know are not petty doctrinal theological curiosities for chin-strokers. Just the fact that you would NOT sentence a man to eternal hell-fire makes you a better servant than any minister of that 'other gospel', no matter how impeccably 'moral' he might be.
Now:
2Pe 1:5-8 Because of this, make every effort to add integrity to your faith; and to integrity add knowledge; to knowledge add self-control; to self-control add endurance; to endurance add godliness; to godliness add brotherly affection; and to brotherly affection add love. If you have these qualities and they are increasing, it demonstrates that your knowledge about our Lord Jesus Christ is living and productive.
And if not?
2Pe 1:9 If these qualities aren't present in your life, you're shortsighted and have forgotten that you were cleansed from your past sins.
Don't forget you've been cleansed from your past sins. To the extent that you have come out of her (babylon), you will not recieve of her plagues.
daywalker:
Hey again John,
We are in agreement that all is of God. Of course Paul's desire to finish the race came from God, not from himself. We do not disagree* here at all. In fact it is this very truth that our desire or "wish to be in the 1st Resurrection" does come from God, that I cannot understand how you would use the phrase "total futile exercise" to describe it?
To me (correct me if I misunderstand your intent) it's like saying it is a total futile exercise to love my wife, because it is God Who gave me this love I have for her. But I know that my love for my wife came from God. That doesn't mean I don't want to continuing loving and finding ways to show her my love. In the same way, I know that my desire to be the first resurrection came from God just as my faith and every good thing that I have. So why then would I turn around and say that this "wish" which came from God is "futile"? Does God give us "futile" things? Why would God give me this desire to be in the 1st Resurrection if this wish is "futile"? That's a slap in His Face from my perspective!
Daywalker 8)
Edit: typ-o.. said "agree" but meant "disagree"... it happens :D
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 08, 2011, 12:45:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: daywalker on June 08, 2011, 10:53:44 AM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 07, 2011, 08:22:37 PM ---
Further, as you know, there is no free will. We do not decide which resurrection we are in. God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection. It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection. You either will be, or you will not be. The Potter has already decided.
John
--- End quote ---
Hey John,
I would have to respectfully disagree with your above highlighted statement. Yes, it is true that "all is of God" and only God knows who are His, but I would hardly accuse our Apostle Paul of practicing this "total futile exercise":
Phillippians 3:8-11:
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
I don't think anyone here would argue that Paul is referring to the first resurrection (i.e. the resurrection of the just). Paul 'gave it his all' every single day of his apostleship wanting, striving, doing all the he could so that "by any means possible" he could "attain" (achieve, gain) a spot in the first resurrection. Personally, I cannot imagine knowing all that I now know and yet NOT "wanting" to be in the first resurrection and be one of the many "saviors" on Mt. Zion (Obadiah 1:21)!
Daywalker 8)
--- End quote ---
Hi Daywalker,
No need to be respectful. ;D ;D ;D
Everything Paul was or ever will be, all came from God. Nothing came from Paul.
Paul was an arrogant little snotty religious fanatic who believed strongly in the Law of Moses. He thought he was good by the religious things he did. He was so good that he also thought he would be in the resurrection of the just, before his conversion.
Paul consented to the murder of Stephen, and watched over the personal effects of the murderers, and watched them murder Stephen. Paul persecuted the Church of God. He killed, tortured, and imprisoned followers of Jesus, both men and women.
When Jesus decided enough was enough, He knocked Paul on his rear end and converted him, in a few seconds. Paul had nothing to say about it. Paul didn't get to vote on whether he wanted to follow Jesus or not.
Jesus made Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul didn't get a vote. The above scripture you quote also came from God. Paul's zeal to obtain the 1st resurrection also came from God. Paul didn't work it up himself. As Paul himself knew, and as he was led to write, both the will and the to do came from God.
So when I used the word "futile", it was with Paul in mind. If Paul brought about everything that he did, on his own, then I guess it would also be possible for us to decide we will be in the 1st resurrection, and to follow God's ways.
God knows who His Elect are. He selects them. And He brings about their conversion now, by His judgments by fire. Spiritual Fire is a good thing. Our God is a consuming Fire. He is the Vine; we are the fruit. It is all from God. Jesus is Savior, not us. Everything we are or ever hope to be, all comes from Him.
John
--- End quote ---
Kat:
Well I think it is a matter of perspective, we all have our own way of looking at things.
John, it seems to me that you look at the hard cold facts and leave it at that. Where as I think of the attitude and emotions that are involved. Yes it is all of God, but the human factor plays a big part, as the work that God is doing in us is for OUR benefit. God's Holy Spirit indwelling is changing everything about us, mainly the way we think in our mind. Paul was not the same person when he was converted that he was as Saul and neither are we. The things that happened to Paul was all of God, but it was to change/convert him, his thinking, to bring him to understand and desire the will of God. So it is with us. God gave Paul great Revelations, so that he could express these truths. I certainly take his teachings to heart.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
You cannot ignore that, "work out your own salvation," God is doing His work in and through us, to change our thinking.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Zander, we will all be judged now or later. The Scripture are clear that now is the more desirable judgment, not to mention obtaining life eonian.
Heb 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, those who refused him that spoke on earth, much more we shall not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from Heaven,
v. 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will not only shake the earth, but also the heavens."
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
v. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Deborah-Leigh:
There's no quick fix Zander. I wish there was ~ :)
Arc
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