> General Discussions

In need of some clarification.

<< < (10/13) > >>

DougE6:

--- Quote ---I didnt really understand the race analogy.  The fact is, as i have said a few times here, i am not currently even wanting to run that race.  Why put effort into it then?
--- End quote ---

That was the entire point! To show where you are right now.  Some people really want to run the race with all their heart. Some, like you, do not even want to enter the race.  If you do not even want to enter the race, then, your conscience may bother you, for you have been intoduced to some great truths. But you don't want to deny yourself, to follow Jesus. So you are worried about stripes. You worry that this knowledge may actually backfire, because you are not willing to serve God. So exactly how is God going to treat you, you wonder, in judgement?

You remind me of King Agrippa, when he said to Paul....Act 26:27  King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe."
Act 26:28  And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?"

The text doesn't ever say if Agrippa actually became a Christian.  You need to decide if you want to become a follower of Christ or not. Even Christ says to count the cost...Luk 14:27  Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28  For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

I pray that you will decide that the rewards of this earth are not even to be compared to the Kingdom of God.

mharrell08:

--- Quote from: zander on June 09, 2011, 07:46:06 AM ---To the person who asked me if i want to be a normal guy.  I am saying normal as in i am human.  Obviously  am not going to put my biography here.  There are things/talents about me i feel stand out (thank God) but why express that here?  It would be straying from my point.

I didnt really understand the race analogy.  The fact is, as i have said a few times here, i am not currently even wanting to run that race.  Why put effort into it then?
--- End quote ---

The race analogy is simply one living their life. You are not judged by how you finish, but rather how you ran the race. And it is the 'how you ran' that determines your prize at the finish, so to speak.

God is more interested in who & what you are internally, then your outward works. He works on these things, even as you do your normal day to day things. As He continues to change you internally, it will manifest outwardly...this is how one 'lets their light shine'. Just remember, God works from the inside-out, and you won't realize it is happening until AFTER the process has begun and close to completion. That's what it means to 'look back' as the apostle John does in Rev 1:10 [See section 'I STOOD UPON THE SAND OF THE SEA' under Lake of Fire Part 13 (http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html)].


--- Quote from: zander on June 09, 2011, 07:46:06 AM ---I still dont get why anyone should recieve harsher treatment for knowing and not applying if they have no desire (or should i say little desire) to apply.  i dont get that.  Again, its a bit like saying if you dont do a, b, c you go to hell...and everyone remembers that mental conundrum, dont they?
--- End quote ---

Why assume everyone else gets harsher treatment? What is harsher treatment?

God only punishes the wicked for what they DO desire to do, not what they don't. And I'm referring to those who knowingly 'suppress the truth in unrighteousness' [Rom 1:18]. As I said before, it's not an all or nothing scenario. There will be people, many people, who will not have God's wrath upon them because they were blinded in their ignorance. But those who do know the truth, and DESIRE to withhold that truth for their own personal gain, THEY will have God's wrath upon them. Not because they had no desire to live right, but because they desired and did live wrong in suppressing the truth.


Hope this helps Zander,

Marques

Samson:

--- Quote from: mmijares on June 09, 2011, 04:42:12 AM ---
--- Quote from: zander on June 07, 2011, 01:13:21 PM ---This verse below:

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)

OK so now i "know" the truths of God.  Not all but some, many, i dont know.  What i mean is i know the ending is going to be good for all and i basically understand what God's will is.

However, as i am still basically human and i sin, does this mean i am in for a harsh time in the LOF because i am not a "avid follower" of the word?  I mean im a normal guy, i do normal things.  I might lie on the odd occasion and do small stuff like that, but ive not killed anyone, robbed a house etc.  The again, neither am i Ray or anyone who is a avid follower.

But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me?  Am i screwed?  SHOULD i be therefore like Ray or anyone else who is following God to the tee?

Any help?

--- End quote ---

Zander,

One of the most important things I learned from the scriptures thru Ray is that I am a lawbreaker however little my sins seem to be.  Which means it does not matter whether or not I only lied, or I only coveted, or I only stole a little, I only put God's name occassionally and others murder, others rape, etc..etc.. I'm still a lawbreaker.  I'm the same compare to others.  I cannot boast.

Similarly, I cannot make myself follow "God to the tee" unless He makes me.  There is a desire, I can feel it hence I pray daily and ask Him to keep this desire He gave to be ever kindled.  I wait for the time I will become "fully blown" spiritually.  If God willing, I really really like to see what is it like to be in the first resurrection.  But I don't know where to start.  Study and pray, I guess?  Then apply what is learned with God's guidance, perhaps?

By faith you will feel, know, sense that there is A POWER that is making you to become someone that you are not before.

-Mij

(Sorry, I am not good in expressing myself in English, worst in giving personal advice.  Funny, I sometimes think, does God only want English-speaking people to be in the first resurrection?)



--- End quote ---



For MMIJARES & Others,

MMIJARES, I don't think you have to worry about God Choosing Only English Speaking individuals. Here's a list of those that didn't speak English: Paul, John, James, Peter, Thomas, Thaddeus, Philip, Barnabas, Timothy, Mary Magdalene, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Stephen, Jude, Nathaniel, etc,  ;D and many more.

Below are excerpt's that I thought might bring balance to the varying opinions involving God's CAUSES, whether Direct or Indirect tempered with Our participation in this Life Course accompanied by the consideration of Man's Will(not Free Will), Man's Desires,the exceeding Weak Heart of Man, God's Purpose or Plan, God's Will for us as individuals. Hopefully, this will help the discussion and not add confusion. Read below PART'S OF OR COMPLETE EXCERPT'S OF RAY'S IN BLUE.

By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?

Dear Nameless:

You are spiritually BLIND!

You equate NOT living according to God's Word, Whoring around with as many women as possible, having carnal fun, and being a general overall a@@, will "Make my life as FULFILLING AS POSSIBLE."  Listen to yourself!

You are admitting that you HATE GOD'S WAY OF LIFE.

To you it "isn't fun" and "isn't fulfilling."   To you a life of sin is a "FULFILLING LIFE."  You need a little spiritual adjustment between your ears.

I stated that there is coming "JUDGMENT" upon all who have not known or obeyed God.  There is "chastisement" in that judgment. THEY WILL have a change of heart, (as you must as well) before they will be members of God's Family. God will PURGE THEM of their evil and wicked ways--it is not a pretty picture.

Hitler will not just waltz into the Family of God as if he has not nothing to be corrected about.  People like Hitler will be SEVERELY CHASTISED for their evil ways. But, he WILL BE SAVED! Thank God for that.

You and I both would have been little "Hitler's" except for the grace of God. And if you don't believe that is true, then your understanding of your own carnal nature is small indeed.

Have no fear. The wicked will repent before they ever enter God's Family. Therefore, if we do not welcome them, then there is something seriously wrong with our own attitude, character, and spirituality.

Hope that helps yours understanding.

Sincerely,

Ray

There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.

    People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins.   They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy.  The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF.  God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering.  Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.

    We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS.  Think of sin as DIRT.  It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

You state that Joshua making a CHOICE to obey God "sounds like free will to you." It may, indeed, 'sound' like free will to you, but it is nothing of the kind. Nowhere in Scripture or in my writings will you find a statement that man does not MAKE CHOICES.  All men make millions of choices--billions!  Making a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "free moral agency" or what is commonly called, "free will."

We choose all day long. God asks us to choose. The human brain has the ability to weigh data and make a choice. I nor the Scriptures deny this fact. What I AND THE SCRIPTURES do deny, is that man has the ability to man "UNCAUSED" choices. For that is what "free" will is all about--UNCAUSED choices, and I and the Scriptures both agree that this is a physiological impossibility.

If something always MAKES OR CAUSES you to choose what you do, then you and your data-processing-brain are not "free" or out of the realm of "causality" to do anything BUT what a cause made you choose. You can say the cause, forced, made, or soften,  to influenced, or inspired, but the end result is always the same: ALL OF OUR CHOICES ARE INFLUENCED, INSPIRED, OR CAUSED to happen by billions of circumstances beyond our knowledge or control.

I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL-- MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN.  God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.

And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.

Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him-- He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL." Oh really? And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires? NO IT CAN'T! And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine. The natural mind is totally incapable of  loving God:

God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first; he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments; he cannot please God; he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9). And therefore God's ways will justify His means. The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).

And so here is the answer to your question:

BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.

AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave his such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever realize the marvelous highest of power and glory that God has in mind for him.

And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grant to you "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.

Unfortunately, there is not a magic bullet that will instantly clean us of all sin and bad habits. Even the physical analogies of this spiritual washing, purging, and cleaning of our carnality, indicate that time is required. It takes time to wash clothing, it takes time to purify gold and silver in a furnace, etc.

The penalty of sin issue can be settled in your heart and mind the instant you come to realize that Jesus PAID IN FULL the penalty for your sins and all the sin of the world. However, paying the penalty for sin does not instantly PURGE AND WASH US CLEAN OF SIN. The penalty is paid, but the condition lingers.

The more you SEE your sins and shortcomings, the more you will DESIRE to rid yourself of these things. We are crucified WITH CHRIST, yet we live, but the life we live is one of OVERCOMING THE SINS FOR WHICH WE AND CHRIST DIED FOR.

We have been HAND-PICKED by God to be in His kingdom. Now we must go through the training course that He has set before us.  Jesus said that He overcame THE WORLD. We too are to overcome THE WORLD. It's a HUGE task, that requires the power of SPIRIT to accomplish.

Don't become discouraged in well-doing. You will triumph in Christ if you have His spirit working in you. God will even give you the DESIRE to want to do right and be right.

This life is a life of SPIRITUAL WARFARE. There will be many battles before the final victory. So we must endure and we must overcome. For those whom God has chosen, this will be accomplished!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

I'm certain there are other Emails that provide insight explaining the Cause & Affect relationship regarding Mankind Sinning explaining Our participation, God's Authorship and How We stop sinning and Our active role in all of this. This Topic about Man's Accountability, God's Responsibility, Man's desire. God's Plan & Desire and whether or not We are involved and to what extent has surfaced for discussion in many Forms and derived from Topics that originally had nothing to do with the original question. Perhaps, because of the difficulty of fully comprehending this relationship, this type of Topic continues to be a source of discussion. I expect that it will be brought up in the Future in some Form or another, especially with the addition of New Forum Members. Well, it's often said: Repetition is the Mother of Retension.

                    Hope This somewhat Helps, Samson.

zander:
I can see this thread could probably go on forever, which is understandable as everyone has their personal take on this.

All i can say is this.  I am normal lol.  I like music, going out, being with pals, cinema, sometimes horrors (like The Mummy III, so bad it was horrific :).  I like to debate, i swear, i judge occasionaly, i drink sometimes, i dont smoke, i like girls.  I dont give as much as i should, i forgive slightly more than i used to.  Finally, worst of all and this should be deserving of many stripes alone - i watch Paris Hilton programmes  :D.  Actually ive gone off them so maybe i am seeing the light.

Im also a journalist.  I hate injustice and i pour wrath on people who cant see the truth through the trees because theyre blinded by media nonsense.  Is that right?  I dont bloody know.  What i do know is all of it is part of who i am.  I am not a decent servant and i am sorry to God for not being one. I am not running any race, i havent really wanted to.  I know one day i will, but not today.  I just dont want to be looked down on for this indiscretion as i really cannot, at the end of the day, help who i am.

Grace:
Samson,

That's where I have another question.  It says in scripture that He spoke plainly to his disciples but to the multitudes He spoke in parables.  But, then, there is the scripture here that says:

John 16:25  These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26  At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27  For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Heb 11:14  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14  For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Would that not mean that whatever language He speaks it will be plainly to His own?

Thanks,
Grace

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page