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Adam's mother
DougE6:
There is another thought that comes to mind, in this discussion. We know all the pre ancestors to modern man were mortal. They all had death and decay residing in them, and they all went to the dust at death. Now let us consider this scripture...Rom 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Obviously, all the ape and pre human hominids were experiencing death and dying. So how does that verse make any REAL sense, if Adam was just one of them? Death would have already been alive and well, and in full operation, in him. I suppose one could say he merely gained an understanding that death was operating in him, when his eyes were opened, so the allegory is one of mere understanding and not a definitive change in him. I agree with the fact that Adam did have a carnal mind, before the transgression, but he had NOTactually disobeyed, up until the transgression. There is something very important about the act, the work, the actual committing of the transgression. And the scriptures state that death would not start in him UNTIL he partook. Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die. So even if you do want to exclude physical death from this verse, and merely make it spiritual(which is a possible interpretation) it still does not fit well with the other verses that Paul wrote in the new testament. It sure seems like Paul had all death in mind when he wrote what he did.
Even the wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (death, not neverending torment in hell) I think Jesus saves me from all the manifestations of death, the death that results from transgression.
And the new testament scriptures also state that it was through the transgression that death passed to all men, not his inheritance from his "parents". ...Rom 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. This verse clearly implies that without the sin by Adam death would not now be operating in man. We inherit death from Adam, however. The inheritance of death is not from his progenitors, it is from Adam to the whole world, to us.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: DougE6 on June 14, 2011, 01:21:05 PM ---This verse clearly implies that without the sin by Adam death would not now be operating in man. We inherit death from Adam, however. The inheritance of death is not from his progenitors, it is from Adam to the whole world, to us.
--- End quote ---
That's not exactly true Doug, the wages of sin is death. As all have sinned, all inherit death by sin not by Adam. Wherever there is sin/transgression, there is death working in one's members [Rom 7:13].
DougE6:
--- Quote ---That's not exactly true Doug, the wages of sin is death. As all have sinned, all inherit death by sin not by Adam. Wherever there is sin/transgression, there is death working in one's members [Rom 7:13].
--- End quote ---
I was speaking more broadly, like when Paul wrote...1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
We do inherit from Adam, whether one wants to call it sin, or death, the result is the same.
SDDiver:
Come to think of it, if there had already been other people (the world?) around at the time of Adam’s creation (calling?), wouldn't it fit so perfectly with the way that God works things…
...the many and the few
...the called and the chosen
...Israel and the Gentiles
...“Be ye separate”
...“Come out of her my people”
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: DougE6 on June 14, 2011, 02:57:05 PM ---We do inherit from Adam, whether one wants to call it sin, or death, the result is the same.
--- End quote ---
True, the result is the same. I found this email from Ray where he speaks of Adam's mortality being passed onto the human race:
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#Adam------------------------------------------
Dear Barb:
As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."
The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?
Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.
Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.
Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:
"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?" Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.
Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?" NO! "...for that ALL have sinned." All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."
A better translation helps our understanding:
"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).
Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."
They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"
But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD." Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!
Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).
God be with you,
Ray
I think we're saying/meaning the same thing. :)
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