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I like what I've read (mostly)
Scrybe:
--- Quote from: orion77 on July 13, 2006, 12:44:46 AM ---is there any way posssible for one to really know God, and in the same sentence say He will torture people forever.
--- End quote ---
Well, I guess that's what I'm getting at. I think a person can know God quite well, but because they have been told by others that they respect, others that show good fruit, that there is an aspect of God we can't understand. And there is truth in that. We can NOT understand God. So it's not a big leap to say that He has a way to reconcile hell with His morality that we have no way of fathoming. And I guess that's what I find so exhilarating about Ray's attitude of 'No contradiction'. I've not spent enough time contemplating his ideas and studying the Bible to see for myself if it all proves out, but it's very different than how the church trains it's leaders. We are all taught that there are apparent contradictions due to our lack of understanding. So it is an act of humility to just accept these things. That is how it has always been for me. We have this enormous weight of 20 centuries momentum pushing us into these doctrines.
So to love God, and walk with Him while misunderstanding Him is the condition of all Christians. I agree that anyone who revels in the idea of hell is probably not close to God at all. But there are those who are submitting to what they don't understand out of love for God. (Because they've been told by very reputable folks and read in very reputable publications, in fact, read the very words about hell in the BIBLE, that it is the way it is.)
Joey Porter:
I think this is the trickiest part of the whole deal. Looking at people's fruits, which by all accounts, seem to be genuine love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness, with no hypocrisy or envy, and yet, they believe erroneous doctrines. How can they possibly exhibit all these fruits while walking in blindness and error? I'm still trying to figure it all out myself.
I think someone above brought up a good point about people not really knowing themselves, what's in their heart. I know that's how I was. What I thought was righteousness, I now see as nothing more than my own works of the flesh. Sure, I could say that it was all the work of God, and I actually THOUGHT I believed it, but did I really believe it? No. Now I have a better understanding of God's sovereignty and my complete ineptitude. Now that I see this, I can actually better analyze others and kind of see whether or not they may be deceiving themselves as I was. But I'm not yet in any position to go about pulling specs out of people's eyes. Yeah, I may have had my plank removed, but I still have too many weaknesses and honestly, too much cowardliness to go around showing others' their shortcomings. People won't like that and I'll lose friends and create icky situations. I know that all of that comes with the tribulation of entering the kingdom, but I confess that I'm not ready for all that yet, so I just have to wait for God to take care of things.
I believe this all relates to what Paul wrote somewhere (forgive me for being lazy and not looking up the scripture); Paul wrote something to the effect of "In a house there are many items. Some are precious stones and some are wood and stubble. If a man cleanses himself of the latter, he will be equipped to do the works that God requires." I'm sorry for the weak paraphrase, but hopefully you get the point. I believe the first step is having our plank removed, and then comes the part of overcoming weaknesses of the flesh. I can't very well go about pointing out others' weaknesses when I've still got a ton myself, otherwise I'd be nothing more than a hypocrite. So I'd rather just confess to being a cowardly sinner and wait for God to do his thing; I'd rather do that than go about being a hypocrite.
Sorry, I began rambling there.
Getting back on topic, sometimes I think it takes careful inspection and really what it all boils down to, is God-given discernment. It reminds me of when Jesus condemned the Pharisees for having the outside of the dish clean, but the inside was full of filth. Many times, people will exhibit all these fruits, but if or when you begin to challenge or question their doctrines, you'll see the fangs start to come out a little bit. And I'm not talking about pridefully or loudly rebuking them, I'm talking about just sticking to what you believe or have been shown. Many times they won't take kindly to it, no matter how humbly or peacably you talk to them.
Also remember, many people of other religions and even atheists exhibit all kinds of admirable traits and qualities, such as selflessness, charity, humility, and so forth. Even dirty minded, godless soldiers lay down their very lives for friends and country. That's not to belittle them or take shots at them. But it just goes to show how tricky it is to discern true acts of Godliness done in Truth, from great human acts that are not of God. You'd think that dying for someone is verification of true humility and selflessness, and even Christ said that's the greatest love that someone could have. But we know (from the Iraqi prisoner scandal a few years ago, amongst other things) that many or most of the soldiers who are dying for others are quite godless. Again, this is not to condemn them, because I certainly appreciate their willingness to die for others, but in reality, it is nothing more than an act of the flesh, the beast. It's hard to grasp and accept, but I believe it's true.
orion77:
Scrybe, I understand what you are saying. There was one sentence in your last post, that I don't agree with, you stated, that "we can not understand God". Read more of Rays articles with your bible in hand and you will see that God, truly wants us to understand Him.
(Job 28:12) But where shall wisdom be found? And where is the place of understanding?
(Job 28:13) Man does not know its value, nor is it found in the land of the living.
(Job 28:14) The deep says, It is not in me; and the sea says, It is not with me.
(Job 28:15) Pure gold cannot be given instead of it, and silver cannot be weighed as its price.
(Job 28:16) It cannot be weighed against the gold of Ophir, against precious onyx, or sapphire;
(Job 28:17) gold and crystal cannot be ranked with it, nor its exchange a vessel of fine gold.
(Job 28:18) Coral and rock crystal cannot be mentioned; yea, the getting of wisdom is above jewels.
(Job 28:19) The topaz of Ethiopia cannot be ranked with it; it cannot be weighed against pure gold.
(Job 28:20) Where then does wisdom come from, and where is the place of understanding?
(Job 28:21) Yea, it is hidden from the eyes of all living, and concealed from the birds of the heavens;
(Job 28:22) the Place of Ruin and Death say, We have heard its fame with our ears.
(Job 28:23) God knows its way, and He knows its place.
(Job 28:24) For He looks to the ends of the earth, and sees under all the heavens;
(Job 28:25) making a weight for the winds and measuring out the waters by measure.
(Job 28:26) When He made a decree for the rain, and a way for the flash, the thunderclap,
(Job 28:27) then He saw it, and declared it; He prepared it, and He also searched it out.
(Job 28:28) And to man He said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom! And to turn from evil is understanding.
(Pro 3:3) Mercy and truth will not forsake you, tie them on your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart,
(Pro 3:4) and you shall find favor and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
(Pro 3:5) Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding.
(Pro 3:6) In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
(Pro 3:7) Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Jehovah and depart from evil.
I have heard from many people that we can not know God or His word, but these are just things handed down that people take for granted. Those words keep many from seeking Him. Truth is, we can know Him and He is a rewarder of those who search for Him.
God bless,
Gary
danagonzalez:
HI,Scrybe, I first want to welcome you to the forum, I'm new as well. Your post is very good! I believe it is a very important one. I posted a question "Does Anyone Feel Like An Alien." I stated that I've always felt like I didn't "fit in" and that something seemed to be sort of between me and the world. I believe that "something" has been God. He has not allowed me to "fit in'" because of His plans for me, as others have even stated in their replies. When I stopped going to church about 4 mos. ago it wasn't because of Bible Truths. I didn't know of BT at that time. I was just so tired of the way I didn't fit in. I was very involved---choir, children's ministry on Wed. nights, children's missions, etc. But, I never felt like I was one of them, I felt like an alien. Just going through the motions and not feeling the way the others seemed to "feel." I've tried to get close to many, many women, but they just seemed to not notice. They'd be friendly (in a shallow way), but then they would go on with their lives and the friendships they already had. It has been very discouraging and I've given up trying many times. But, then it seems after a little" break" I start to get a desire to be around people again and that's what I am noticing now. Now I've been reading Ray's teachings and I'm seeing everything alot differently. I believe that God is the One who directs my steps and has all along. I believe He has a purpose for some of His chosen ones to be in the churches. I believe that He won't let me "fit in" and I can trust that because of my past experiences. I' ll give up, then He sends me back out there to be "me" some more. I am different and He has given me strength through understanding so that now I can stop wanting to fit in and He can use me as a light. Not a" mouth piece," but a light. I understand why I don't fit in now, so I can trust that God is with me and allow Him to get glory His way. Matt.5:16 LOVE DANA :) God Bless You As You Search
jerry:
scrybe: I beleave each person is at the level of undestanding that god put them in,I dont think its ever been the responsability of christians to seperate the sheep from the goats,what man actually thinks he has the wisdom to do that,,but to me its foolishness.Theres plenty of highminded people that want to do gods job for him,I think we should just wait and see before makeing judgements,God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy....................Jerry
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