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is it important to change mind about freewill ?
DougE6:
Deep thinker you are, Obading!
When you boil it all down as you are attempting to do, you have two main factors..1. A cause or causes 2. A choice.
In the final end YOU DO make the choice. You own the choice as you MADE it. You made it for the most part, of your volition. You chose. You, many times, LOVE your choice. You like to think the choice is all your own. You DO feel responsible because YOUR choice reveals YOUR PREFERENCES. You then followed through on your choice. So YOUR choosing makes you accountable.
God is the CAUSER. He steers His creation through creating the CAUSES that CAUSE your decision. But He never takes away your part...YOU MAKE THE CHOICE> OH He full well knows what that choice will be, He knows that your will WILL chooose whatever causes resonates with you the most. What ever YOU PREFER. You will often choose to DO evil, because evil is in your heart. God knows this, but arranges the causes anyway, for good and great purposes.
This is why our CHOICES so well ILLUSTRATE what is in our heart. We will choose according to the preferences in our heart.
Spiritual growth requires that we need to have our hearts revealed. To ourselves. We need to become ashamed of the sin in us, to learn to HATE the wickedness and weakness and character flaws resident in us. Our responses to life, our choices show this clearly.
God has created an individual path for us all to walk in, This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed. Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart. Through the process of having us make choices, even choices that could not be chosen in any other way, is God's way of making us into His image.
We MUST all LEARN to HATE the character flaws and evil in our hearts, and rejoice and Love and Embrace the righteousness, the goodness, the fruits of the spirit, that He puts into our renewed hearts and minds. WE will THEN SEE OUR CHOICES CORESPOND TO OUR NEW HEARTS> Halleleujah.
River:
"Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper." - Albert Einstein
Dave in Tenn:
Kat was very wise to turn thoughts away from thinking about what does not exist--free will--and turning them towards what DOES exist--the sovereignty of God.
There's only so much the mind of man can understand about the ways of God. We really begin to learn these things in and through obedience. If you want to do good, then try to do good and see if you can. Try it as an experiemnt if you're not yet ready to commit. You'll learn more than the forum can 'teach' you.
odading:
--- Quote from: Kat on November 18, 2011, 08:09:51 AM ---Hi Odading,
Welcome to the forum :)
Well we're having no free-will is one of the hardest things to believe and let go of, because our carnal mind wants desperately to think it has control.
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
I think I know now that I'm mistaken...it's not freewill.
As the term "freewill" (from now on) I should change to "will" instead.
--- Quote ---But what about the sovereignty of God? If God is truly sovereign and totally in control and actually holds all this creation together, then where is our free-will?
--- End quote ---
But one thing that still "bugging" me, I do realize God sovereign - but I do wonder whether God has to personally "infiltrate" human daily activities by His Will, while at same time He made the LAW-cause&effect.
Just like an analogy from octoberose (I know it can't be applied exactly because of different relationship).
If I prepared the food at 7pm for my son, as it's time for him to eat - but it turnout he doesn't want to eat - and my Will is that he is to eat at that time, do I have to drag and force feeding him ?
IMHO, it's only after the situation "pass/happen" - then someone can say : "it's God's Will"... when :
- if the result "brings" a nice/good situation : "it's God's Will, He loves me"
- if the result "brings" a not good situation : "it's God's Will, He hasn't allow me yet".
and worse, when I'm late bring my dog to see the doctor, because I'm quite busy with works - and then my dog die : "Oh God, why did you this to me ? You're responsible for my dog's death, I'm not responsible for this - because Your Will made me a lot work to do ... and so on and so on."
Oh my.... I can't and will never say that - because I fully understand, it is ME who put more attention at work, it is ME who delay to see doctor so it is ME who made my dog die.
Except, if I do abandon my work - bring the dog to see doctor soon, I do my best for the dog, but the dog still die then I'm sure it is God's Will that my dog has to die on that day and time.
To me, His ultimate Will is when He take His creature's life.
--- Quote ---God is working all this out behind the scene where we are not aware of His controlling all things.
--- End quote ---
Hiksss... :'( , it's really difficult for me to understand if that "behind the scene" is that He personally control every daily activities each human life. (which made me think, it isn't necessary for Him to make His LAW-cause&effect)
--- Quote ---However God being in control and ultimately causing all things to happen does not make Him evil and a sinner.
--- End quote ---
even in my believe that "He let it happen" - and when something bad comes up - I'm sure I'll never think that He is evil ... :)
(for me "He let it happen" is different than "He deliberately MAKE IT happen" :))
Thank you for your respond, the article and verses you gave me, Kat.
regards,
odading.
odading:
--- Quote from: JohnMichael on November 18, 2011, 08:20:56 AM ---God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.
Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).
--- End quote ---
I've just search an online bible with "responsible" keyword. Why the verse use "responsible" not "accountable" ?
--- Quote ---There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.
Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something
Responsible: chargeable with being the author
Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?
--- End quote ---
In a real life can I make the analogy something like : The boss is responsible - his staff is accountable (which mean his staff doesn't need to be responsible to himself and his boss ? (very sorry... as I don't quite get the meaning of "accountable").
Anyway... thank you for your respond John.
regards,
odading.
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