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is it important to change mind about freewill ?
odading:
--- Quote from: DougE6 on November 18, 2011, 08:40:05 AM ---We MUST all LEARN to HATE the character flaws and evil in our hearts
--- End quote ---
Dear DougE6.... I'm sorry... but really .. this is a very "difficult situation" for me....
suppose, God's Will the athlete to win by tomorrow. In order to fulfill His Will - so with His Will - He made the athlete to train hard today, and to every little things the athlete do today just as long as to support the athlete wins by tomorrow.
Then... where is "the must" ?
The athlete won't possible (or need not) to think "he must"... isn't God's Will have made him to do everything today in order he wins tomorrow ?
very sorry for my stupidity... :'(
and thank you for your enlightenment.
regards,
odading.
odading:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 18, 2011, 09:47:00 AM ---Kat was very wise to turn thoughts away from thinking about what does not exist--free will--and turning them towards what DOES exist--the sovereignty of God.
--- End quote ---
Yes, she did. And I'm learning now, that it's not the "freewill" but it's only a "will"... :)
--- Quote ---There's only so much the mind of man can understand about the ways of God. We really begin to learn these things in and through obedience. If you want to do good, then try to do good and see if you can. Try it as an experiemnt if you're not yet ready to commit. You'll learn more than the forum can 'teach' you.
--- End quote ---
This is a wise advice also for me. I think I can not rush everything.... I need to give myself "more time" to my understanding about how God "works" :)
Thank you so much Dave for your input.
regards,
odading.
Dave in Tenn:
You're welcome. And if you choose to do the experiment, the rest of us scientists may want to hear the results. :D
JohnMichael:
--- Quote from: odading on November 18, 2011, 09:59:21 AM ---
--- Quote from: JohnMichael on November 18, 2011, 08:20:56 AM ---God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.
Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).
--- End quote ---
I've just search an online bible with "responsible" keyword. Why the verse use "responsible" not "accountable" ?
--- Quote ---There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.
Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something
Responsible: chargeable with being the author
Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?
--- End quote ---
In a real life can I make the analogy something like : The boss is responsible - his staff is accountable (which mean his staff doesn't need to be responsible to himself and his boss ? (very sorry... as I don't quite get the meaning of "accountable").
Anyway... thank you for your respond John.
regards,
odading.
--- End quote ---
Hi Odading,
In regards to your first question, what verse are you referring to?
As to your second question, yes that analogy would work. Here's another analogy: A parent and child. A child does something wrong. The parent is responsible because the child is the parent's procreation. The child is accountable for whatever he/she did wrong. If a child steals candy from a candy store, the parent has to pay for it. The child, however, is accountable because the child is the one who stole the candy. Because of the child's actions, the child may be banned from going to that store anymore. God is the parent (our Heavenly Father), and we are the child.
Hope this helps.
In Him,
John
Kat:
Hi Odading,
I took a few excerpts from the Biblestudy ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.msg40741.html#msg40741 ----
From: the Nazarene.com (In italics)
The Principle of Cause and Effect underlies all scientific thought, ancient and modern, and was enunciated by the Essenic Teachers in the earliest days. While many and varied disputes between the many schools of thought have since arisen, these disputes have been principally upon the details of the operations of the Principle, and still more often upon the meaning of certain words. The underlying Principle of Cause and Effect has been accepted as correct by practically all the thinkers of the world worthy of the name. To think otherwise would be to take the phenomena of the universe from the domain of law and Order, and to relegate it; to the control of the imaginary something which men have called “chance.”
Comment: This is a pretty profound statement right there. What scientist or who do you suppose discovered or propagated this law of ‘cause and effect?’ What kind of knowledge and information would it take? What kind of scientific instrumentality would it require, to nail down this principle? Any ideas? A mathematician maybe? How long do you think they knew about this? Who do you think the first person was that came along and said, ‘do you know that everything in the universe that we see happen, had a cause.’? How long ago do you think that might have been?
About 425 BCE, Greek philosopher Socrates propounded the foundational of western philosophy and western thought. Socrates stated that we live in a world governed by law, whether we understand the principles behind it or not. It was later known as the ‘Socratic Method of Argument.’ It was from this premise that Socrates argued all his other philosophies. It was based on this one solid fundamental principle. Later it was known as the ‘Socratic Law of Causality,’ today called ‘The Law of Cause and Effect.’ It is nearly 25 centuries old and it was one of the reasons that Socrates was put to death. Just like declaring the earth revolves around the sun, rather than the sun around the earth.
Comment: I interject the thought here, suppose we do have free will. What good is it? Can you tell me something in your life that it has done for you that‘s good? It’s worthless, it’s worse than worthless, it’s pinning your hopes on something that doesn’t exist.
Here are more quotations from this paper.
As a result, physicists, neuroscientists and computer scientists have joined the heirs of Plato and Aristotle in arguing about what free will is. Whether we have it and if not, why we ever thought we did in the first place.
Mark Hallett, (researcher with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Strokes) said, “If Free will does exist, it’s a perception, not a power or a driving force. People experience free will. They have the sense they are free.
Comment: It’s a feeling, nothing but a feeling.
The more you scrutinize it, the more you realize you don’t have it.
In other words, he said we feel like we have it, we feel like we have this thing called free will. I mean you get up in the morning, you say I’ll have coffee and reach over an have that to eat. This is all free, see. Why is it free? Because we PERCEIVE it to be free. When you look at it carefully though, what does this scientist say, the more you look at it and scrutinize it, you realize you don’t have it. It doesn’t exist, it’s a figment of your imagination, it’s an allusion, it’s an idol of the heart. It’s something you wish you had and you want to have and whether you do or you don’t, you’re going to say you do. That’s what it is, it’s an allusion at best.
That is hardly a new thought (the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said), as Einstein paraphrased it, that a human can very well DO what he wants, but cannot WILL what he wants.
Comment: Have I not said that through out my papers. Have I not said that if a man lusts after a little girl, he can figure out a way to corner her, steal her away, kidnap her, have sex with her and cut her head off. Can he do that? Can he not do what he DESIRES to do? Yes he can.
This is so profound. This is coming from Arthur Schopenhauer;
That a human can very well ‘do’ what he wants, but cannot ‘will’ what he wants.
I’m telling you there is more truth in that statement than most theologians have ever gleamed from the Bible in there entire lives. You can choose what you desire, what you want, how can you do that? The human brain, the human mind has the ability. It is beyond any computer, it is so fabulous and marvelous, it is beyond comprehension. That it can gather information and data and analyze it and make decisions regarding it. It can do that, there is no doubt that it can do that. But that it can do that without a cause, is total hog wash and unscriptural heresy and demeans the very sovereignty of God. It’s tantamount to saying, I know we are here, I know we exist, but no God made us.
Everything has a cause. Your thoughts, your choices have a cause and the second you take away the cause, you don’t have a choice. So the idea, that you have a freedom that has no cause to make choices, is insane, it is stupid.
v
v
So if human actions cannot be caused and are not random, then it must be what, some kind of weird magical power?
This is a scientist talking here. Dr.Wegner (of Harvard) said;
I think that exposing free will as an illusion, would have little effect on people’s lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.
Isn’t that the truth, they just deny it and say, ‘oh well my pastor teaches this and your just a scientist and I don’t believe you.’ He (Wegner) said;
It’s an illusion, but it’s a very persistent illusion; it keeps coming back. Comparing it to a magician’s trick that has been seen again and again. Even though you know it’s a trick, you get fooled every time. The feeling just doesn’t go away.
It’s amazing, even when people are educated that this can not exist, like a magician’s trick, they still go out from this Bible study and think some how they do have free will anyway, because it APPEARS that way. I mean the magician really did pull a rabbit out of a hat, and you know it’s a trick, he showed you how he did it. But when he does it, it still ‘appears’ like he did something magical and you believe it.
v
v
This is what should humble everyone of us. We are no better that anyone else! Except by the grace of God, that is the only reason!
Why don’t we all have leukemia? The grace of God.
Why aren’t we all blind? The grace of God.
Are there blind people? Yes. Why isn’t it us? Grace of God, no other reason.
God determined who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances. What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit, it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign, that’s why. He is in control of everything!
But people despise the Word of God. I show people a scripture and they despise it. “I create evil…” ‘No He doesn’t, it means calamity.’ There are words that mean calamity, there are words translated in the Hebrew that mean calamity, ‘RA’ is not one of them. In Isaiah 45:7 it’s ‘RA’ the same word translated over 600 times ‘evil’ that’s what He created.
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There is so much to learn on all this, it takes a lot of study and pray to unlearn all these false ideas.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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