> General Discussions
is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Dave in Tenn:
Here are two links to audio recorded at a bible-study where Ray taught extensively on the subject. I hope 'listening' is easier on you than reading. Either way, it is worth the headache. :D
Part 1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%201.mp3
Part 2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%202.mp3
GaryK:
Douge6:
“Remember we are all volunteers, WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins,
God doesn't FORCE us to sin.”
John from Kentucky:
“In all things, big and small, good and evil, life and death---
God rules and is the Cause behind everything that is.
There is a scripture that says birds do not die without His say.
Another scripture says the hairs on our head are numbered by God.
Those two scriptures show that
God micromanages all things to the smallest degree.”
Dave in Tenn:
“Our choices are all caused by something or someone.
And even the causes are caused through things we have no control over in our pasts and our present--our ancestry, our geography, history, etc. etc. etc.
These causes stretch all the way back to the Mind of God
in creation. And He knows the end from the beginning. He is the first 'cause' and continues to 'cause'.”
Douge6:
“God being in control of all things, is actually the bottom line,
in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe.”
John Michael:
“God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is,
for the way people are, and for everything.
God doesn't make man sin.”
Douge6:
“God
has created an individual path for us all to walk in, This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed. Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart.
Through the process of having us make choices,
even choices that could not be chosen in any other way,
is God's way of making us into His image.”
Kat,
from Ray:
“God determined
who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances.
What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,
it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,
that’s why. He is in control of everything!”
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and yet "god doesn't force us to sin" or "make man sin".........................>?
Dave in Tenn:
Mat 26:31-35 Then said Jesus to them, "All of you will be turned away from me this night: for it is said in the Writings, 'I will put to death the keeper of the sheep, and the sheep of the flock will be put to flight.' But after I am come back from the dead, I will go before you into Galilee."
But Peter made answer and said to him, "Though all may be turned away from you, I will never be turned away."
Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this night, before the hour of the cock's cry, you will say three times that you have no knowledge of me."
Peter says to him, "Even if I am put to death with you, I will not be false to you."
So said all the disciples.
Jesus knew what would happen. Peter (and the others) denied that they would do what He said, denying therefor that HE DID know.
Mat 26:69-75 Now Peter was seated in the open square outside the house: and a servant-girl came to him, saying, "You were with Jesus the Galilaean."
But he said before them all that it was false, saying, "I have no knowledge of what you say."
And when he had gone out into the doorway, another saw him and says to those who were there, "This man was with Jesus the Nazarene."
And again he said with an oath, "I have no knowledge of the man."
And after a little time those who were near came and said to Peter, "Truly you are one of them; because your talk is witness against you."
Then with curses and oaths he said, "I have no knowledge of the man." And straight away there came the cry of a cock.
And the word of Jesus came back to Peter, when he said, "Before the hour of the cock's cry, you will say three times that you have no knowledge of me." And he went out, weeping bitterly.
Jesus knew it would happen. He said it would happen. It did happen. It still does. That's our hope. Why did Peter deny the Lord from His perspective? To fulfill the prophecy. God does His will all the time. Why did Peter deny the Lord from his own perspective? Because he was weak, in a word. God hasn't fashioned us strong. Haven't we got enough examples in Scripture, teachings of Scripture as well as our own life and observations that testify to this?
Just a reminder that this wasn't the end of Peter:
Act 2:14 (and following): But Peter, getting up, with the eleven, said in a loud voice..."Men of Israel, give ear to these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man who had the approval of God, as was made clear to you by the great works and signs and wonders which God did by him among you, as you yourselves have knowledge, Him, when he was given up, by the decision and knowledge of God, you put to death on the cross, by the hands of evil men: But God gave him back to life, having made him free from the pains of death because it was not possible for him to be overcome by it.
The sovereignty of God is everywhere in Scripture. Free-will is nowhere. I had to 'pretend' for a while that it was so, before I could see that it was. For the record, this isn't easy for me either, though it's not so much the doctrine anymore as the 'obedience' or the ramifications of the Doctrine in my own life. There are no surprises for God. There are plenty of surprises for our carnal minds.
Anyways, for whatever it's worth, there's the sermon.
DougE6:
Hi gk
That was a very creative and well designed post! Just to answer the question I think was posed to me. I simply do not like the word "forced" I think Ray has said something very similar, that he does not like that word in these situations either, in emails. I think the word "forced" has connatations that we weren't going along with our choices, that we are making our choices against our own will. By definition, our will is making the choices! We aren't making choices AGAINST our will.
Doug
Kat:
Here is a few places where Ray speaks on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12957.msg113684.html --------
Aug. 2008 Bible study
FREE WILL
This really is an amazing concept. It’s been argued by theologians and philosophers for thousands of years. I mean going back further than the Christians faith; Plato, Aristotle - they all dealt with this thing of free will and so on.
Why do you think it is such a hard concept for people to understand? Why can’t they get it? [Comment: We make our own choices all day long.] Okay, so you think because it feels like we have free will? [Yes.] We don’t actually feel something hindering us, nobody actually twist our arm to make a decision. I mean we just kind of do it spontaneously, therefore we think nothing caused it. We may even think something may of influenced it, you know. But something actually causes it. Nothing made you think what you thought? Nothing made you do what you did? But of course it did.
We have to be careful about words, because words can make us very prejudice. We can say for example, someone is inspired to write a beautiful song. They were inspired, right? Or we could say somebody forced them to write a song… forced them. Well that’s not the same connotation is it, being inspired and being forced? But the truth of the matter is they both cause the song to be written, didn’t they? Yeah. So they are both a cause.
So the word 'cause' is not good or evil, I mean it’s just what it is. It can cause something happy, it can cause something sad. I mean the word ‘cause’ itself has no moral bias to it. So that’s true, people don’t feel like they are being coerced, therefore they think they have free will. But they don’t know what it is.
http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm -------------------------------
We choose all day long. God asks us to choose. The human brain has the ability to weigh data and make a choice. I nor the Scriptures deny this fact. What I AND THE SCRIPTURES do deny, is that man has the ability to make "UNCAUSED" choices. For that is what "free" will is all about--UNCAUSED choices, and I and the Scriptures both agree that this is a physiological impossibility.
If something always MAKES OR CAUSES you to choose what you do, then you and your data-processing-brain are not "free" or out of the realm of "causality" to do anything, BUT what a cause made you choose. You can say the cause forced, made or soften to influenced, or inspired, but the end result is always the same: ALL OF OUR CHOICES ARE INFLUENCED, INSPIRED, OR CAUSED to happen by billions of circumstances beyond our knowledge or control.
Therefore King Nebuchadnezar was CAUSED to see that it is God and God alone who rules in the kingdoms of individual men and corporate men. God said that it was HE, GOD, who CAUSED [MADE] the king of Assyria do the warring and slaughter that the king thought he himself had the ability to do.
Jesus said He could no NOTHING except what the Father gave Him to do AND TO EVEN SAY, and Jesus said that without Him, we also, CAN DO NOTHING.
Here is what the Scriptures say
"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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