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is it important to change mind about freewill ?
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--- Quote from: JohnMichael on November 18, 2011, 11:14:45 AM ---In regards to your first question, what verse are you referring to?[
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Sorry for the delay... :)
it's in Genesis 44:31 and Numbers 30:15
--- Quote ---As to your second question, yes that analogy would work. Here's another analogy: A parent and child. A child does something wrong. The parent is responsible because the child is the parent's procreation. The child is accountable for whatever he/she did wrong. If a child steals candy from a candy store, the parent has to pay for it. The child, however, is accountable because the child is the one who stole the candy. Because of the child's actions, the child may be banned from going to that store anymore. God is the parent (our Heavenly Father), and we are the child.
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Thank you for your explanation, John.
regards.
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--- Quote from: Kat on November 18, 2011, 11:29:30 AM ---Why don’t we all have leukemia? The grace of God.
Why aren’t we all blind? The grace of God.
Are there blind people? Yes. Why isn’t it us? Grace of God, no other reason.
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I assume the one "not lucky" - they don't get grace of God ?
--- Quote ---There is so much to learn on all this, it takes a lot of study and pray to unlearn all these false ideas.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes.... I have to be honest, it still sooo difficult for me ... :'(
Thank you Kat for your explanation and support.
regards.
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--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 18, 2011, 12:39:17 PM ---Here are two links to audio recorded at a bible-study where Ray taught extensively on the subject. I hope 'listening' is easier on you than reading. Either way, it is worth the headache. :D
Part 1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%201.mp3
Part 2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%202.mp3
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Thank you Dave for the links.
I still haven't got time to download it and listen, but if God's Will then I will (most of my Muslim friends do that phrase :))
regards,
reko
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: JohnMichael on November 18, 2011, 08:20:56 AM ---
--- Quote ---But how can people be responsible if everything is God's Will and everything is His responsibility ?
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God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.
Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).
There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.
Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something
Responsible: chargeable with being the author
Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?
Hope this helps; In Him,
John
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Very nicely put john! Thank you! :)
GaryK:
To the original poster, I'm not attempting to steal your thread but allow me the flexibility for a few questions of my own since they are about free-will...........sort of.
Hi Dave. I’m not arguing that God isn’t omniscient. You’re right, scripture is full of details supporting same.
No problem there.
Hi Kat, thanks for bringing that out and, yes indeed, understanding that there is no free-will is a hard concept for so many, it has been for me and I’ve never pretended otherwise on this forum. It remains so.
But still, that’s not really what I’m attempting to nail down here. I think I understand the cause and effect, and, just as Dave said going back to God’s mind during creation, or before.
Got no problem with cause and effect.
But, it just seems rather contradictory to say that God controls everything by cause and effect, including our will to choose good or bad……depending on HIS will…..so we choose to sin by a designed weakened spiritual state which God installed in all humans………yet………he doesn’t cause us to sin. I get lost, right there in that last sentence. Makes no sense to me. God is responsible, yes, and we are accountable, yes……..but……..if I COULD choose to do good I would. But I don’t because of the weakened spiritual state, heart, mind…whatever…that HE implemented.
To me, he’s responsible and accountable for the cause and the resulting choice and the resulting sin, just as much as I am accountable to commit a sin.
Hi Doug, yes the word ‘force’ is strong and Ray has certainly deflated that idea that we are forced.
It’s interesting that you bring up the ‘will’ of man. I’m not arguing that it isn’t our will that is making choices. Of course it is.
But.
Ray also says in his free-will series that our will……..will……...always be in accordance with the will of God, and in that manner no one has ever gone against God’s purpose, his will, yes, we all do, but not his purpose……if our will, that choice that we make, good or bad, is in accordance with his will, the desired action and resulting consequence, is certainly how he wished it to be, then, we sin because he desired us to do so to bring about the desired outcome. To me he is just as much responsible for the cause of the sin as we are.
That isn't about free-will, it's about cause of the sin. He designed all things, sin included. He designed us weak, we choose to sin, his will wants our will to choose to sin, he causes us to sin. Looks simple enough to me. He doesn't like us to sin, but he wants us to do so.
Otherwise, by our own free-will (which we don’t have) we could choose to do other than his will, and that is not to be.
This isn’t about ‘free-will’ it’s about....who causes what.....and to me if God is the cause of all things, let’s pin the tail on the donkey rather than give him an out and say he doesn’t 'cause' us to sin. I see it as he did, does, will..etc.
I need desperately to understand this very thing, this is my crux, because you have no idea the hatred I have for God right now and the teetering back and forth on the loss of belief that he even exists. Here’s why. I’m putting blame on God for historical vile acts from way back when, to now, to yonder and I see it as he’s guilty of it all. To say he doesn’t cause mankind to sin and bring about vile acts and their domino consequences is hollow, that he doesn’t manipulate the lives of so many humans from some to good guys to others are bad guys, is simply non-sense to me. I see it as he certainly does. He will have mercy and whom he chooses and that includes giving knowledge, giving lifes good things whether they realize it or not now in this age or the next. Others are instruments of destruction. At his will. That’s fine to say he has mercy on those who are blessed, I’m sure they feel that way if they ever have the thought in their head. But what about those who aren’t so blessed? What about those who he’s manipulated their lives in such a way that there are no ‘bennies’, just hard times from birth to death. Where’s the mercy for them. There are people who simply don't understand their own choices that cause actions that results in long-lasting hardship(s) directly for themselves and others who are in their circle of life. If God is brave, let him......give them...... understanding that they HAVE NO CHOICE but to carry out his orders, rather than they be in constant wonderment as to why things are they way they are and just exactly who's in charge.
It’s all connected, at least to me, I just can’t see the lines to the dots.
Apology for the wall of words, just trying to express myself in a cordial yet continuous manner to get to the root of this deep valley.
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