> General Discussions
Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Dave in Tenn:
Line upon line...precept upon precept...here a little, there a little...rightly (I hope) CUTTING the Word of Truth.
This follows the passage I 'quoted' earlier...the part about eye not having seen, nor ear heard, nor entering into the mind of man....
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed it to us, by his Spirit; for the Spirit exploreth all things, even the profound things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man is there, who knoweth that which is in a man, except it be the spirit of the man, which is in him? So also, that which is in God, no one knoweth, except the Spirit of God.
and then this.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God; that we might know the free gifts, which are given to us by God.
1Co 2:13 Which things we also speak; not in the teaching of the words of man's wisdom, but in the teaching of the spirit; and we compare spirituals with spirituals.
1Co 2:14 For a man in his natural self, receiveth not spirituals; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them; for they are discerned by the Spirit.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual, judgeth of all things: and he is judged of by no one.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Messiah.
It's odd to me that Ray used the various 'relationships' which WE are in/to Christ in his reply...'brother', 'virgins', the 'bride of Christ', Christ's 'body', and 'sons of God'. Can we say all these things are 'literal' and all at the same time? Really? Brothers AND bride?
What are Christ's words? Spirit.
Ray said we know NOTHING of the Father (same as the disciples) except what Christ revealed. Jesus came to reveal the Father and said ..."if you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
What is it about/in/of a man that knows about a man? His spirit. What is it about/in/of our God that knows about Him? His Spirit. Who has His Spirit and knows about Himself? Our God...and then He gives His Spirit to us.
To the extent we no longer have the spirit of the world, and to the extent we have the Spirit of God we 'know the free gift' He has given to us...because a man in his natural state doesn't understand the spiritual. It's foolishness.
"Discerning by the Spirit" is clearly not referring to our 'carnal/natural" understanding, but to the Spirit of God which He has (to whatever extent) given to us. It also means (at least I think so) that WITH this Spirit, we DISCERN SPIRITUALLY--comparing Spiritual with Spiritual. That's why we can't say that we are 'literal' Brides AND brothers, but that these SPIRITUAL words Christ spoke are what we are "LIKENED" to. With His Spirit, we also have the MIND of Christ--again, at least to the extent we do.
From where do all of our actions spring? Our bodies? No, from our minds, hearts-- and not simply our brains and emotions, but the invisible SPIRITUAL workings of all that makes us what we are, intricately interconnected and 'fashioned' to make us unique. Remember that SPIRIT is not simply a COMPONENT of man (like Caspar the friendly ghost), but the very 'force' that animates him..IN EVERY WAY.
When God created Mankind, He breathed into him SPIRIT, and Mankind became a living soul. That's what we are. He did this after declaring intention to "create mankind in Our image." OK, so we are in the 'image' of God. What about US is thus 'like Him?" We know OURSELVES and the things OF OURSELVES by our spirit (if religion hasn't robbed us of even THAT knowledge) and we are told that He has given us to KNOW HIM and the things of HIM by HIS SPIRIT. We are walking, talking 'pictures' (images) of God. Can it be that we ourselves are parables (little stories) of the 'enigma' of God, and of our God Himself?
If the spirit in me makes me alive, determines my 'actions', character, and 'thoughts' (by His 'fashioning' and sovereignty) is it also true that HIS SPIRIT determines HIS ACTIONS, Character, and THOUGHTS? Not so far off-base so-far, I'm guessing.
OK then...here's the kicker...why must I assume, after all this, that FATHER is a 'literal' term? Wouldn't that be comparing Physical with Physical? Or at best, Physical with Spiritual? What is GREATER, the SPIRIT that animates and determines His thoughts, character, and actions or the Person through Whom His Spirit works? I have ZERO doubt when it comes to ME, and could cite many Scriptures to back that up. This is exactly the way Scripture says I operate! Could it well be that when Jesus says the "Father is Greater than I", and that He does nothing, says nothing that doesn't come from the Father that He is speaking SPIRITUALLY? I do nothing, say nothing, and accomplish nothing without MY spirit.
One day I will be full of HIS Spirit. And I will walk, talk, speak, and act according to IT. I BELIEVE I have a Lord and God who has done that ever since the Spiritual Father gave HIM life. And don't ask me when that was, except before the foundations of the world.
Of course, I may be wrong (and I CERTAINLY know only in part)...but I don't think so.
I've followed Ray's teaching on all sorts of 'topics' for more than six years now. Nearly everything I know about Spiritual Truths came by way of Ray's teaching. I've done my best along the way NOT to forget AND to incorporate every 'new' truth with those that preceded it. I believe Ray when he said that it's ALL ONE THING. This is where I am.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote ---When God created Mankind, He breathed into him SPIRIT, and Mankind became a living soul. That's what we are. He did this after declaring intention to "create mankind in Our image." OK, so we are in the 'image' of God. What about US is thus 'like Him?"
--- End quote ---
I would only contend to Dave, that we are, being MADE into God's image. We are not there yet.
Dave in Tenn:
Alex, are we not even the tiniest bit 'there'? It's a process. We already ARE the sons of God, though not all of us are well-behaved.
santgem:
Christ who is the exact likeness of the Father, are one and the same, even the mode of degree in both worshipping them.
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Rev 5:13
We could not Worship living God, the Father, apart from living God, the Son.
because it is God who said, Out of darkness light is to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2Co 4:6
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. 2Co 4:4
The Son radiates God's own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven. Heb 1:3
Kat:
Thanks Dave, I didn't realize that was Ray's... but I do think we need a Scripture to verify those comments, as this very thing seems to be a point of confusion.
Indeed there is a difference in literal and physical, and our discernment of that is critical to our understanding. God uses the physical, which He put in place to be as it is, so that He could use it to represent the spiritual to a degree, He knows we are physical and need physical imagery to help our understanding. But there must be the discernment of how to apply the physical without taking it literal, as in the bride and body of Christ. Those terms are good to help us understand better what those relationship will be, but of course we get confused if apply it in too literal/physical sense.
Also our image being like His does have a physical and spiritual application, all humans are now in His likeness physically, but will only be in His likeness spiritually at the first resurrection.
1Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to have his head covered, because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man.
James 3:9 By this we bless God, even the Father. And by this we curse men, who have come into being according to the image of God.
Yes I think the Father's and Son relationship is taken too literal, but obviously it is the best way to describe it or they could have used another term, but it's the term Christ Himself used. We can see from that physical relationship, and Jesus verified it, that the Father is indeed greater than the Son, of course it is a spiritual application. We have no idea what more the Father may be, but I do feel that is part of what Christ is revealing about the Father, He is greater. Certainly we don't have all understanding on this yet... but little by little it is revealed by the Spirit and the Scripture will show us.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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