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Author Topic: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"  (Read 18906 times)

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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2014, 04:32:24 PM »


John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.

But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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santgem

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2014, 05:05:22 PM »

John 4:23  But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.


Who is that spirit?

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2Co 3:17

Who is that truth?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jhn 14:6


Who then the Spirit of truth?

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Jhn 15:26


Did the Father send the Spirit of his Son so that we can call the Father?

 And because we are his children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, prompting us to call out, “Abba, Father. Gal 4:6


Are the true worshipers will worship the Father in Jesus Christ for the Father is seeking such to worship Him?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 05:19:40 PM by santgem »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2014, 05:08:42 PM »

Alex, are we not even the tiniest bit 'there'?  It's a process.  We already ARE the sons of God, though not all of us are well-behaved.

Only because God calls those things that are not as if they were. I know you know that scripture and the SUM of the Word is truth. Being part way there or 1% there doesn't give us the right to throw all caution to the wind and start confusing others by talking about our process of transformation as if its already complete.

See Kat's post directly above yours for Scriptural confirmation.  I've not thrown caution to the wind.  And I can't help it if this is all confusing.  I know...I know...the Nature of God...what a horrible thing to have to think about!   ;D

I'm no 'wiser' than the next person.  In fact, I think of myself as little more than a toddler with the Scripture.  Sure, I can handle some strong meat of the word, but I have trouble getting it all into my mouth.   ;) 

If my conclusion (if that's what it actually is--I doubt it) is 'wrong' it isn't because the 'premises' are wrong.  And I've got more where these came from.  It's because it is incomplete.  And I've been 'preaching' that ALL of our 'conclusions' are 'incomplete' for years now.  The heaven of all us heavens can't contain Him.

I have One God.  His name is Jehovah.  He also goes by Jesus.  I am not Him.  He is not me.  But we are 'inextricably linked' for the eons.  It just has to start someplace.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 05:21:37 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

microlink

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2014, 05:19:02 PM »

From JFK
Kat,

Here are two Scriptures in support that They are the same.  Not the identical functions, but the same God.



John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.

But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


If God the Father are the same, then why did Ray say that The Father prevented Jesus from sinning as He could have sinned knowing He was in the flesh? The Father could never sin. Jesus could have but thanks be to God for His love toward us He did not sin. So Jesus cannot be all that the Father is. Many good posts in this thread confirm IMO
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3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2014, 05:38:21 PM »

Could Jesus have sinned?  The proof is in the fact that He didn't.  I don't see Him in His earthly life as teetering on the brink, being pulled back at the last minute.  He does all after the council of His own will.

In like manner, you and I could NOT have not-sinned.  The proof is in the fact that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

But even if He DID experience His life, testing, and temptation 'like that', He did Father's will.  HIS will and Father's will are the same will.  One day it will be all of ours too. 

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Rene

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2014, 07:06:35 PM »

We do worship one God (the Father and Jesus Christ), but let's not forget that Jesus Christ also has a God and His God is the Father.  It is not for no reason that Jesus stated, "...the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

Rom 15:6 - "In order that with one accord, with one mouth, ye maybe glorifying the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2Cor 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassions, and God of all encouragement"

2Cor 11:31 - "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus knoweth He who is blessed unto the ages that I am not speaking falsely"

Eph 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ"

Col 1:3 - "We are giving thanks unto God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ always for you offering prayer"

1Pet 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead"
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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2014, 07:21:03 PM »


Hi microlink, I saw all the Scripture from John, but not one of those say that Jesus is everything that the Father is and the same. Yes He is fully God, with the very nature of the Father as they are one, and we do see the Father through Christ.

John 8:19  Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."

Since Jesus in the flesh was still fully God, that in and of itself means He would not sin.

James 1:13  Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
v. 14  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15  Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

God, Father and Son as they are one, is not tempted to sin, because there is no lust for the physical things of this world. He would not have lusted even when He was in the flesh, because He had the Spirit of God without measure (John 3:34).

1John 2:16  For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2014, 09:15:10 PM »


John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.

But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

O.K.  Let's look at the 1st Scripture I quoted, Hebrews 1:3.

The King James and the NKJV says Jesus is the express image of God.  The NASB says He is the exact representation of God.

Of course the NT was written in Greek.  The Greek word is charakter.  That word is number 5481 in Strong's Concordance and means, "The exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, ie. facsimile.

So per that Scripture, how is Jesus different from the Father?

Does anyone have a Scripture that contradicts Hebrews 1:3?  That says Jesus is not the exact representation of the Father?

When Jesus said that if you have seen Him (Jesus) you have seen the Father---was Jesus a little confused?
Did He mean to say that you have almost seen the Father, but not quite?

Was poor Jesus confused again when He said, "I and Father are one."  Did He mean to say that there were two of Them?

In those ten Scriptures quoted previously from the Book of Isaiah, were they wrong?  They say that there is one God and He created everything alone.  Did He forget to say, " there is Jesus and Me and the holy spook makes three?"

In the Book of Philippians, where it states Jesus was equal with God---should we ignore that too, in order to make the Scriptures fit our personal opinions?



Sorry about the sarcasm Kat.  I do get carried away.


Some people are confused about something.  Before Jesus had emptied Himself, He had all power in heaven and earth.  After His Resurrection, He had all power in heaven and earth.

But during the 33 years or so that He had emptied Himself, in order to die, He was below the angels in power and life force.  He was fully human.  Some things He said about Himself at that time pertain to His human condition and are not about His power as God.  For example, He was hungry, He was thirsty, He tired, He grew in grace and knowledge----none of those things are applicable to God in His full power.


Well, it is obvious our little group are not of one mind on this matter.  But look at the interest it engenders.  God is bringing this issue to the fore.  I wonder why?  Why was Ray interested in this matter near the end of his life?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 09:17:11 PM by John from Kentucky »
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microlink

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2014, 10:02:01 PM »


Hi microlink, I saw all the Scripture from John, but not one of those say that Jesus is everything that the Father is and the same. Yes He is fully God, with the very nature of the Father as they are one, and we do see the Father through Christ.

John 8:19  Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."

Since Jesus in the flesh was still fully God, that in and of itself means He would not sin.

James 1:13  Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
v. 14  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15  Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

God, Father and Son as they are one, is not tempted to sin, because there is no lust for the physical things of this world. He would not have lusted even when He was in the flesh, because He had the Spirit of God without measure (John 3:34).

1John 2:16  For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thank you Kat  :)
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3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2014, 10:03:15 PM »


Look at the whole passage there John.

Heb 1:1  God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v. 2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3  who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (at the Majesty's Father's side, but not the Father),
v. 4  having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Surely you know that an image or likeness or reproduction or facsimile is not the thing that it represents, neither is the Son.

I have never denied that the Father and the Son are one God, but I do not believe that makes them one and the same being and I do not see any Scripture that says that.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2014, 10:38:41 PM »


Look at the whole passage there John.

Heb 1:1  God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v. 2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3  who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (at the Majesty's Father's side, but not the Father),
v. 4  having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Surely you know that an image or likeness or reproduction or facsimile is not the thing that it represents, neither is the Son.

I have never denied that the Father and the Son are one God, but I do not believe that makes them one and the same being and I do not see any Scripture that says that.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

We love you Kat.  We just don't see eye to eye on this.

I've had a long day at work.  Need to get home and cook some hot dogs to eat, which is about the limit of my cooking skills.

But you do know that sitting at the right hand of majesty is symbolic language, not literal?  Some people have this delusion of God the Father with long white hair and beard sitting on a throne.  And then there is Jesus with the long brown hair and beard sitting on a throne at His right side.

Also God the Father is not a being or person.  He is this invisible force, which is everywhere.  I don't think our language is adequate to describe His greatness.  God will have to do.

I have multiple Scriptures that prove the Father is God.

I have multiple Scriptures that prove Jesus is God.

And I have a zillion Scriptures that prove God is one.  Not multiple entities.

If the Father is a separate (whatever) with separate thoughts and personality and existence.

If Jesus is a separate being (that word does apply to Him) with separate thoughts and personality and existence.

Then you have two separate Gods.  But the Scriptures do not teach that.

So, since I follow where the Scriptures lead, I am left with the conclusion of one God.  Many Scriptures such as 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:15 confirm that together the Father and Jesus are one God.  You can't have one without the other.  They do not do the same things; they do different things as 1 Cor 8:6 describes.  But they are not separate.

So that is where I am right now.  It doesn't bother me to stand alone.  I can't help but follow where He leads.

I'm not going to add anything further to this thread since I don't have more to add.  But the Scriptures do show us the Truth, and they do not contradict.  The two witnesses guide the way at God's direction.
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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2014, 11:45:56 PM »

John I don't disagree with anything you just said. And no I don't believe there is a literal throne where the Father is literally sitting with the Son literally sitting there by His side... and yes the Son is a Being the Father is not.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 11:53:30 PM by Kat »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2014, 01:44:45 AM »

Bob, here is what you were asking about.

G2822
κλητός
klētos
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
called, 11
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Rom_1:1, Rom_1:6-7 (2), Rom_8:28, 1Co_1:1-2 (2), 1Co_1:24, Jud_1:1, Rev_17:14


G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
Total KJV Occurrences: 23
elect, 13
Mat_24:24, Mat_24:31, Mar_13:22, Mar_13:27, Luk_18:7, Rom_8:33, Col_3:12, 1Ti_5:21, Tit_1:1, 1Pe_1:2, 1Pe_2:6, 2Jo_1:1, 2Jo_1:13
chosen, 7
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Luk_23:35, Rom_16:13, 1Pe_2:4, 1Pe_2:9, Rev_17:14
elect’s, 3
Mat_24:22, Mar_13:20, 2Ti_2:10
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

santgem

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2014, 07:15:07 AM »

Alpha and Omega / first and the last


the Father

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send itunto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Rev 1:11

Who hath wrought and done, Calling the generations from the first? I, Jehovah, the first, and with the last I am He. Isa 41:4

This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last;apart from me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6


And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freelyHe that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev 21:6-7


the Son

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I WAS DEAD, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.’" Revelation 1:17-18

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:7-8




Does God and the Son change?

Hebrew 1:8, Hebrew 13:8, Numbers 23:19, James 1:17, Romans 11:29, 1 Samuel 15:29, Malachi 3:6
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Joel

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2014, 11:52:05 AM »

I personally do believe there is a literal presence to be enveloped in that has seldom been experienced here on earth.

Joel
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indianabob

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2014, 12:48:42 PM »

Thank you very much Dave.
I had not heard this explained the way Ray did in the Bible study.
Much to consider and very grateful.
Indiana Bob  ;D

Bob, here is what you were asking about.

G2822
κλητός
klētos
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
called, 11
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Rom_1:1, Rom_1:6-7 (2), Rom_8:28, 1Co_1:1-2 (2), 1Co_1:24, Jud_1:1, Rev_17:14


G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
Total KJV Occurrences: 23
elect, 13
Mat_24:24, Mat_24:31, Mar_13:22, Mar_13:27, Luk_18:7, Rom_8:33, Col_3:12, 1Ti_5:21, Tit_1:1, 1Pe_1:2, 1Pe_2:6, 2Jo_1:1, 2Jo_1:13
chosen, 7
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Luk_23:35, Rom_16:13, 1Pe_2:4, 1Pe_2:9, Rev_17:14
elect’s, 3
Mat_24:22, Mar_13:20, 2Ti_2:10
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santgem

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2014, 09:04:21 AM »

I was thrust into your arms at my birth.
You have been my God from moment I was born. Psa 22:10 NLT

On Thee I have been cast from the womb, From the belly of my mother Thou art my God. YLT

I was cast upon thee from my birth: thou art my God from the time I was born. WEB

I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. KJB

I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God
.NKJB



Jesus is not a created being!



And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.Rev 5:13



Every creature worshiping that sitteth upon the throne and unto the lamb, if Jesus is created being then he should also joining those that worship God.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 09:25:10 AM by santgem »
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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2014, 01:24:39 PM »


Hi santgem,

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)

Rev 3:14  `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God; (YLT)

You cannot deny what is said there in Revelation, because there is a point about the Son being actually the first/chief creation of the Father. It is the Father who is the source by which we have this creation, He is greatest of all (John 10:29), He determined to bring this creation into being "by/through His Son" (Rom 11:36). So if this is the Father's creation, then Son was the "beginning" of this creation, not the 'beginner' or origin of it or something, because then it would be the Son's creation.

1Cor 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

1Co 8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (Concordant)

And everything is being reconciled to the Father (His creation) by/through the Son.

2Cor 5:18  Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

But we do know the Son was "Firstborn over/of every/all creation... before all things."

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, (Concordant)

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html --------------

Who and What is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.

Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).

And also:

Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!

"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"

"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.

Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:

"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).

"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).

"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).

"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
 
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 01:33:55 PM by Kat »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #79 on: August 23, 2014, 02:08:51 PM »

Hello ,all.

So far what I read on this post,is there one or two,I believe the later.

Bible study march 2011,
All of it ,but this one in I think is best.


                                         WHO WAS JESUS CHRIST

Now think about this, there is basically, apart from what some people would say that Christ never existed in the first place, but basically we have these teaching;

1) Jesus Christ is the second person of a triune God of this trinity God head. He’s the second person. He’s not the first or the third, but He’s the second. That He existed from all eternity with the Father.

2) We have this, and there is any number of them, and that is including the Jehovah Witnesses, that Jesus Christ was just a man. Okay, just a man.

Sir Anthony Buzzard, says in his book on the trinity, that Jesus Christ came into existence for the first time when He was born to Mary. He is not some other God, He’s not some deity, He didn’t exist from all eternity with the Father. He was born, a baby boy and grew up to be a man and that’s what He was, a man.

3) There are a few of us that believe that Jesus Christ was created by His Father. Begotten, yes, and created.

If Jesus Christ were this so called second person of the triune God, why would His Father have to tell Him or show Him anything? I mean He is God, right? What does the Father know that He doesn’t pray tell, if He was there with God from all eternity? He wouldn’t have to tell Him or show Him anything, I mean that is a slap in the face.

Another little problem is, if Jesus Christ is God, very God, God of God they say, eternal, from eternity. How could He die? God can’t die!

On the other hand if He were just a human being and He didn’t come from anywhere, except His mother’s womb. Then someplace between coming out of His mother’s womb and going out and spreading the gospel, He had to find out who He was. Who told Him? When was He told? He couldn’t have very well been told when He was 12 years old.

At the Passover time, when Jesus was 12 years old they went up to Jerusalem and they were there for the feast. And it came to pass after they left they looked around in their company and Jesus wasn’t there. So they went back to Jerusalem, apparently they were gone a whole day and then they had to come back another whole day and then they walked around Jerusalem a whole day. They went to all of the places that they thought He might be and finally they found Him at the temple.

Luke 2:48  And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why have You thus dealt with us? behold, Your father and I have sought You sorrowing.

By the way that word “sorrowing” is the identical Greek word used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man said I am being “tormented,” it’s the same word. So I don’t think Mary was being burnt with fire.

v. 49  And He said unto them, How is it that you sought Me? Wist you not…

“Wist” we don’t use that word anymore. Wist you not that we should be soon eating lunch. 

v. 49 …Don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50  And they understood not…

They didn’t know who He was, Jesus is 12 years old and His own parents didn’t know who He was. Remember Simon wanting to see the newborn baby, before he died, he knew who He was. The shepherds they were taught who He was. He’s dealing with those of the law here in the temple and there was the angel of the Lord and the heavenly host.

I mean all these people dealt with Jesus and they didn’t know, His own parents didn’t know who He was. He was just a little boy that got left behind and they had to go back and get Him. He said “don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?”

So at 12 years old He wasn’t told, He already knew who He was! Not only did He know that His Father had business for Him to do, He was already doing it! He said I’m already about it, I‘m already doing it, at 12 years old. Well when did He know who He was?

This is just for fun. Let’s assume that He did not have any recollection that He came from somewhere from God and that He was now growing up as a boy to become a man, the Savior of the world. He had no such recollection that this is what He was doing here. He was just a little boy. So imagine Mary, let’s say He is 5 years old, setting down little 5 year old Jesus on her knee one day. So she says to Him;

Mary - Son I have something very important to tell You. It time you know that Joseph, my husband, is not your father (To which Jesus is utterly shocked).

Little Jesus replies - I don’t understand. What do you mean daddy isn’t my Father? Who is my father?

Mary - God is your Father.

Jesus - God!? How can God be my Father, you told me that God was up in heaven.

Mary - Yes that’s true son, but He’s nonetheless your Father.

Jesus - Does that mean you’re not My mother?

Mary - No son, I’m still your mother.

Jesus - Is daddy and God your husband? I thought daddy is your husband.

Mary - Yes Joseph is my husband, but God is your Father. Joseph is the father to your bothers and sisters, but he’s not your father.

Jesus - But I want daddy to be my daddy.

Mary - Well he is kind of your daddy, it’s just that you were actually begotten by God in heaven.

Jesus - I got what? What did I get?

Mary - No Son, begot means… well I will explain it to you later.

Jesus - Mother does dad know about all this stuff.

I don’t mean to be sacrilegious, but I can’t buy that scenario. I just don’t believe that happened and something like that would have had to happen, if He was just a little Jewish boy growing up to be the Messiah and didn‘t know it. I mean who would want to spring something like that on a little boy? That’s pretty traumatizing.


Walt.


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PSALMS 133:1
How wonderful it is,how pleasant,when brethren live together in harmony!
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